Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Cleon]

Again, I think I worded it poorly. Let me restate. I rarely see atheists quote a founding father more about ANY issue than Jefferson.

Then it's self-selected. You see that because when discussing the FFs with self-identified atheists, church & state is usually the subject at hand.

In any event, the "atheist" bit is a red herring.

I feel that you know what you have chosen to read and focus on. Please give me some time to compose a rebuttal.


I think it may be due to the lack of fervent research you've done to verify the veracity of the assertion...

Well, that's very condescending and incorrect of you.

 

[ceo_esq]

You can think that if you like, but you'd be wrong. Jefferson is one of the most studied figures in American history, for two very good reasons:

[snip]

As one of those who's studied him at the graduate level, let me clarify. When I said Jefferson's views on the subject were not widely understood, I was alluding to the fact that the most conventional understanding of what Jefferson thought about the relationship of church and state - and the relevance of those views to Establishment Clause jurisprudence - incorporates notable misconceptions. This is one of the themes of some of the best recent Jefferson scholarship (an example that comes to mind is Dreisbach's Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State), in fact. To borrow your phrase, you can think otherwise if you like, but you'd be wrong.

Jefferson's views on religion are very well understood; they just don't mesh with the myth that he was a Bible-thumping Christian.

When I alluded to Jefferson's "ideas on the subject", the "subject" was church-state relations, not Christianity or religion as such. I trust you understand the distinction.

 

[firecoins]

http://www.coralridge.org/about_djk.htm

Dr. D. James Kennedy is the most listened-to Presbyterian minister in the world today. His forthright and rational presentation of the Gospel is heard via television and radio throughout America and the world.

It all began on a Sunday morning in 1953 when he was startled awake by a preacher’s stern question on his clock radio: “Suppose you were to die today and stand before God, and He were to ask you, ‘What right do you have to enter into My heaven?’—what would you say?” Dr. Kennedy soon discovered the answer, was converted to Christ, and shortly thereafter was called into the Gospel ministry.

Is this the guy mentioned in the initial post? I fairly certain he knew the answer before he did any reseach into TJ.

 

[Cleon]

As one of those who's studied him at the graduate level, let me clarify. When I said Jefferson's views on the subject were not widely understood, I was alluding to the fact that the most conventional understanding of what Jefferson thought about the relationship of church and state - and the relevance of those views to Establishment Clause jurisprudence - incorporates notable misconceptions.

Such as?

This is one of the themes of some of the best recent Jefferson scholarship (an example that comes to mind is Dreisbach's Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State), in fact. To borrow your phrase, you can think otherwise if you like, but you'd be wrong.

I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the book, but from looking at the reviews on Amazon it's largely considered the "best" by Christian apologists for essentially saying that Jefferson thought religion should be separated from the Federal government, but state & civil governments are ok. Which I find difficult to swallow, given Jefferson's extremely well-documented skepticism regarding organized religion and Christianity in particular. From reading the reviews, which are mostly glowing, Dreisbach engages more in conjecture and implication than actually looking at what Jefferson said about the subject.

Not having read the book, I won't comment further, except to note an interesting response here.

 

[fuelair]

I don't seem to see DOC back yet. Another hit and runner?

 

[sackett]

Eh...

What's up, DOC?

 

[DOC]

Well my time is limited so I'll list some of the other things Kennedy said in the audio tape before I try to respond to responses...

Jefferson approved of Federal money to be spent to build churches for the Indians. He also approved Federal money for missionaries to be sent to the Indians.

 

[Cleon]

Well my time is limited so I'll list some of the other things Kennedy said in the audio tape before I try to respond to responses...

Jefferson approved of Federal money to be spent to build churches for the Indians. He also approved Federal money for missionaries to be sent to the Indians.

You might not want to take everything Kennedy says at face value. I googled for this, and found this rather illuminating explanation:

Regarding the claim that Jefferson founded a church with government funds when he was President, that is quite a stretch. The evidence cited is 1 Indian treaty (out of 388) where the U. S. gained, in August 13, 1803, a huge tract of land about half the size of Ohio from the Kaskaskia Indians. The U. S. paid the Indians $500, at their insistence, so they could erect a church building. The U.S. also paid $100 a year for seven years for a Catholic priest, who was already living among the Indians as a missionary, to teach them to read. The U. S. taxpayers money, from Jefferson's view, was likely viewed as a cost of acquiring land (not the support of religion). What did Jefferson care what they spent their money on?

Treaties with the Native Americans were, at least theoretically, no different than treaties with sovereign nations outside the United States. If Iraq, as part of negotiations of a treaty with the US, asks for money so they can rebuild mosques, this doesn't mean George Bush admires and financially supports Islam. It means that he's willing to shell out some cash for an agreement that he feels will be beneficial to Halliburton the United States.


If this is the basis for Jefferson's "admiration and financial support of Christianity," it's a flimsy basis indeed.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Ummm, DOC, we really don't care what D. James Kennedy has to say about this.

Many here are, however, interested in your views, particularly as they are backed up by references. That is, references to someone with more authority on the subject than televangelists.

 

[ceo_esq]

Such as?

...

I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the book, but from looking at the reviews on Amazon it's largely considered the "best" by Christian apologists for essentially saying that Jefferson thought religion should be separated from the Federal government, but state & civil governments are ok. Which I find difficult to swallow, given Jefferson's extremely well-documented skepticism regarding organized religion and Christianity in particular. From reading the reviews, which are mostly glowing, Dreisbach engages more in conjecture and implication than actually looking at what Jefferson said about the subject.

To quote some relevant portions of Dreisbach's thesis:

The "wall" Jefferson erected in his letter to the Danbury Baptists served primarily to separate state and nation in matters pertaining to religion, rather than to separate ecclesiastical and all government authorities. ... This jurisdictional (or structural) interpretation of the metaphor is rooted in the text, structure, and historic, pre-Fourteenth Amendment understanding of the Bill of Rights, in general, and of the First Amendment in particular. This view is buttressed by the text of the Danbury letter (including evidence gleaned from a preliminary draft), as well as by Jefferson's explanation of the letter and his stance on specific church-state issues apparently addressed in his correspondence with the Connecticut Baptists. ...

It is plausible, even likely, that Jefferson desired each state, through its respective constitutions and laws, to erect its own wall of separation between ecclesiastical and state authorities, but ... while he specifically denied that the federal government had the "power to prescribe any religious exercise," he acknowledged that such power "[r]ests with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority." Notwithstanding the useful purposes Jefferson thought were served by the First Amendment "wall," he understood that its strictures were not imposed on state governments. ...

This controverts the conventional notion that Jefferson's metaphor encapsulated a general constitutional, prudential, and libertarian doctrine of church-state relationships and religious liberty. ... There is no evidence that Jefferson considered the metaphor the quintessential symbolic expression of his church-state views. There is little evidence to indicate that Jefferson thought the metaphor encapsulated a universal principle of religious liberty or of the prudential relationships between religion and all civil government (local, state, and federal). There is much evidence ... that the "wall" has been used in ways - rhetorically and substantively - that its architect almost certainly would not have recognized and, perhaps, would have repudiated.

As I see it, this in no way contradicts Jefferson's skepticism about organized religion. Note that Dreisbach thinks it likely that Jefferson would personally have preferred that the several states choose to erect their own walls; he simply would not support that outcome being imposed upon them, or the forced disestablishment by the federal government of state-established religion. Now, that conclusion might be looked on favorably by someone desirous of seeing state-established Christianity (for example), but it hardly places Jefferson in the same camp.

There's necessarily some conjecture - hopefully well-founded - in any historical research of this nature, but I disagree with any reviews you saw that suggested Dreisbach didn't look at what Jefferson actually said about the subject. More typical, I think, was the review in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, which noted that "Dreisbach compiles evidence from, among other things, Jefferson's contemporaneous writings, in which he more clearly expressed the view that the federal government in particular had no power over matters of religion", and called the book a "thorough historical inquiry". If you're interested in the subject matter, I think you'd appreciate the book on its own merits, regardless of what use or misuse some religionists may make of it.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yes, according to an audio tape of Dr. James Kennedy of Ft. Lauderdale Florida, Thomas Jefferson was a Bible Scholar who read the Bible daily. Jefferson read the Bible in English, Greek, Latin, and French. Jefferson also contributed his own money to 10 different churches in the 8 years he was president.

It's odd that Kennedy suddenly has developed respect for Jefferson considering the following:

Kennedy's 1994 book, Character & Destiny: A Nation In Search of Its Soul, is riddled with attacks on the constitutional principle. Among other things, Kennedy calls church-state separation 'diabolical,' a 'false doctrine' and 'a lie; propagated by Thomas Jefferson.

--Source: http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=1

So which is it, DOC? Is Jefferson an American Christian Sage, or is he a diabolical deist who wanted to keep church and state seperate?

 

[Blutarsky]

Sorry folks. I'll post my rebuttal this weekend, I'm the new proud owner of a busted cold-water pipe in my attic...

 

[Ducky]

Sorry folks. I'll post my rebuttal this weekend, I'm the new proud owner of a busted cold-water pipe in my attic...

Ok now that sucks. Seriously.

I hope it didn't cause too much damage. Good luck in the repairs.

 

[ceo_esq]

Yes, there were some devout Christians amongst the FFs, but they were the minority; the Deists were way more common.

I'm not sure that's correct. According to this table of religious affiliations of Founding Fathers, there were only a handful of deists among them (even adding in arguably close cases such as Washington); the deists were greatly outnumbered by Christians. Of course, how devout those Christians may have been is another question.

(I haven't evaluated the accuracy of the entire table, but a random sampling of the names seem to check out.)

 

[Upchurch]

I don't really find anything in his selection of quotes that makes me believe that he was not a christian. We can fight over what exactly devout means...

Or even what "Christian" means. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. His "Jefferson Bible" alone is evidence of that, but it certainly is not the only evidence.


eta:
Oh, here is a quote from earlier that does shows he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus:

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

 

[Darth Rotor]

Or even what "Christian" means. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. His "Jefferson Bible" alone is evidence of that, but it certainly is not the only evidence.

eta:
Oh, here is a quote from earlier that does shows he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus:

I find it revealing, as I read through this thread, to see the reaffirmation of a need to pigeon hole Thomas Jefferson into a particular category.

Skeptical? My arse.

DR

 

[Upchurch]

Skeptical? My arse.

How do you mean?

 

[Tricky]

I can beat that. At various points I've donated to several local mosques.

Me too, at least until I discovered they weren't costume parties.

 

[kmortis]

As I see it, this in no way contradicts Jefferson's skepticism about organized religion. Note that Dreisbach thinks it likely that Jefferson would personally have preferred that the several states choose to erect their own walls; he simply would not support that outcome being imposed upon them, or the forced disestablishment by the federal government of state-established religion. Now, that conclusion might be looked on favorably by someone desirous of seeing state-established Christianity (for example), but it hardly places Jefferson in the same camp.

I wouldn't expect that TJ would want the Feds to force the States into this separation. He was, politically speaking, first and foremost a staunch opponent to a strong federal government. IIRC, it was TJ that suggested a tribunal at first, instead of a single President. I believe it was Johnny Adams was the one to convince him that that was a bad idea.

So, anyhoo, it doesn't seem like that summary is in opposition to the portrait that I've been portraying of TJ. He was a strong supporter of States Rights, he wasn't all that happy with any form of strong heirarchy, political or religious.

 

[fuelair]

Well my time is limited so I'll list some of the other things Kennedy said in the audio tape before I try to respond to responses...

Jefferson approved of Federal money to be spent to build churches for the Indians. He also approved Federal money for missionaries to be sent to the Indians.

and the smart ones know, this has no relation to deist or atheist - it is a way of controlling them/absorbing and diluting them.