Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[Blutarsky]

Another small point. I do notice that Jefferson is a favorite of atheists. Though he was a very important founding father, and a person with whom I share many common beliefs with regard to religion and separation of church and state, I don't necessarily think his ideas were the prevailing wisdom of the day.

I think he was so vocal because he was the minority at the time. Other than Jefferson's letter, there is really very little on the record regarding spearation church and state.

As far as antics regarding what was or wasn't done in the Rotunda...they did keep records back then...they should be easy enough to verify or debunk.

 

[Ducky]

Another small point. I do notice that Jefferson is a favorite of atheists. Though he was a very important founding father, and a person with whom I share many common beliefs with regard to religion and separation of church and state, I don't necessarily think his ideas were the prevailing wisdom of the day.

No post here was expecting to establish the premise his was the prevailing wisdom of the day. Also, since Jefferson was a Deist, I don't understand why you think he's a "favorite of atheists." The entire point of my post was to try to show DOC his post was in error with fact.

I think he was so vocal because he was the minority at the time. Other than Jefferson's letter, there is really very little on the record regarding separation church and state.

Let's see... there is the First Amendment or the Treaty of Tripoli (article 13 is it?) Aside from that, which of the many quotes I provided on Jefferson's views of separation of church and state were ambiguous?

As far as antics regarding what was or wasn't done in the Rotunda...they did keep records back then...they should be easy enough to verify or debunk.

Probably true. I never looked into the rotunda's proceedings. However I don't see the need given the sourced quotes I provided. They clearly show Jefferson's attitude on the subject.

 

[fuelair]

Yes, according to an audio tape of Dr. James Kennedy of Ft. Lauderdale Florida, Thomas Jefferson was a Bible Scholar who read the Bible daily. Jefferson read the Bible in English, Greek, Latin, and French. Jefferson also contributed his own money to 10 different churches in the 8 years he was president.

He also stated that Jefferson attended church every week for seven years in the Rotunda of the Congress building and ordered the Marine band to play to support the singing and hymns.

I'll get into the Seperation of Church and State misinformation and deception later as time permits.

I assume you are bringing this to our attention because you know this Kennedy person is lying and you want us to know what slander on Jefferson is being perpetrated on us by him. Thanks!!

 

[Cleon]

I'm curious too. I think Jefferson's ideas on the subject are not well or widely understood, frankly

You can think that if you like, but you'd be wrong. Jefferson is one of the most studied figures in American history, for two very good reasons:

1) He was very complicated, and his views often contradicted with each other (see: slavery).
2) He, like many of the other founding fathers, wrote everything down. Every view he had at any point in his life is written down somewhere and has been studied.

While historians have a lot of debates about Jefferson, those debates circulate around why Jefferson thought what he thought at period X in his life. What he thought at that period is almost never in question.

Conservative Christians like to propagate this myth that the FFs were universally Christian, Jefferson included, but actual study of history--like the plethora of quotes fowlsound provided--shows that this is far from the case.

Jefferson, like many of the FFs and other intellectuals of the Enlightenment, was a deist. He was mostly sympathetic to the views of the Unitarians (forerunners of today's Unitarian-Universalists), who rejected traditional Christian concepts like the Trinity and Hell. He was, in fact, often accused of being an atheist and infidel by the Christian fundamentalists of the day.

Jefferson produced his own version of the Bible (which fowlsound also mentioned); if anything speaks volumes about his views on religion, the Jeffersonian Bible is it. It consists of no miracles, no virgin birth, none of the faux history of the standard Christian Bible--just Jesus' moral teachings, which Jefferson approved of. (I can't say that I'm opposed to them, either.)

Jefferson's views on religion are very well understood; they just don't mesh with the myth that he was a Bible-thumping Christian.

 

[Cleon]

I don't really find anything in his selection of quotes that makes me believe that he was not a christian. We can fight over what exactly devout means...

He was not a "Christian" in today's sense of the word--certainly if he were around today "Dr." James Kennedy would not call him one. In modern terms, he was a Deist--he believed that the universe had a Creator, but that the Creator in question stayed out of the way. Jefferson most certainly did not believe in miracles, the Resurrection, or other supernatural staples of Christianity.

In short--he did admire the teachings of Jesus, and considered himself a "Christian" in that sense, but he rejected all the supernatural woo-woo that went with it.

 

[Beady]

He was, in fact, often accused of being an atheist and infidel by the Christian fundamentalists of the day.

Is there an actual quote to this effect? I've often seen this claimed, but I've never, that I recall, seen any original source.

Jefferson produced his own version of the Bible (which fowlsound also mentioned); if anything speaks volumes about his views on religion, the Jeffersonian Bible is it.

Available on Amazon, both hardback and paperback.

 

[Blutarsky]

No post here was expecting to establish the premise his was the prevailing wisdom of the day. Also, since Jefferson was a Deist, I don't understand why you think he's a "favorite of atheists." The entire point of my post was to try to show DOC his post was in error with fact.

I state that he is a favorite of atheists because I see him quoted more than any other founding father when it comes to a discussion of church/state separation and christianity. Simple observation on my part. There were just as many vocal founding fathers who didn't agree with him. Just another observation.

Let's see... there is the First Amendment or the Treaty of Tripoli (article 13 is it?) Aside from that, which of the many quotes I provided on Jefferson's views of separation of church and state were ambiguous?

I think I worded my post poorly. Outside of Jefferson's comments you won't find much discussion of the topic.

Probably true. I never looked into the rotunda's proceedings. However I don't see the need given the sourced quotes I provided (IE, the rotunda discussion, which may or may not be true, but don't you want to know?). They clearly show Jefferson's attitude on the subject.

Unfortunately those quotes can be mitigated by others which don't support your premise. What was presented wasn't a balanced discussion, it was clearly drafted to prove your point to the exclusion of other evidence that didn't help bolster your point. I could provide dozens of quotes that make him sound like a theist, but I don't think it would profit any of us here...

 

[Blutarsky]

He was not a "Christian" in today's sense of the word--certainly if he were around today "Dr." James Kennedy would not call him one.

It's a good thing Kennedy can't speak for anyone other than himself...his POV is just that, his POV.

 

[Steven Howard]

Is there an actual quote to this effect? I've often seen this claimed, but I've never, that I recall, seen any original source.

I don't have a link, but it's often cited in accounts of the 1800 presidential election campaign that the Federalists called Jefferson a "howling atheist" who, if elected, would force everyone to use his "atheist Bible". See John Ferling's Adams vs. Jefferson, for example. I'm reasonably certain that Ferling cites a primary source.

 

[Beady]

I don't have a link, but it's often cited in accounts of the 1800 presidential election campaign...

Oh. I lend as much importance to campaign claims as I do to campaign promises. That being the case, I wonder why the accusations are mentioned in any context.

 

[Cleon]

I state that he is a favorite of atheists because I see him quoted more than any other founding father when it comes to a discussion of church/state separation and christianity. Simple observation on my part. There were just as many vocal founding fathers who didn't agree with him. Just another observation.

Well, first of all, your logic is flawed. One does not need to be an atheist to support the separation of church and state--in fact, said separation is for the benefit of both church and state.

Second, from what I understand the separation of church and state was not widely debated amongst the founding fathers--which indicates that they were all more or less in agreement with it. If that were not the case, it's unlikely that the Establishment Clause would have made it into the First Amendment.

I think I worded my post poorly. Outside of Jefferson's comments you won't find much discussion of the topic.

Which again, indicates that from the FF's point of view, it was not controversial.

Unfortunately those quotes can be mitigated by others which don't support your premise. What was presented wasn't a balanced discussion, it was clearly drafted to prove your point to the exclusion of other evidence that didn't help bolster your point. I could provide dozens of quotes that make him sound like a theist, but I don't think it would profit any of us here...

Only if by "mitigated" you mean "ignored." There is no question that he believed in a Creator, as I said earlier; but his religious outlook was that of a Deist, not a Bible-believing Christian in today's sense of the word.

Yeah, I suppose if you wanted you could provide select quotes that might indicate he was a Christian--however, to do so you'd have to take said quotes completely out of context, or warp them to the point of fabrication.

Again, Jefferson's views on religion are NOT some historical mystery; he was very outspoken about his opinions.

 

[Blutarsky]

Well, first of all, your logic is flawed. One does not need to be an atheist to support the separation of church and state--in fact, said separation is for the benefit of both church and state.

I think you're reading that into my post, as I clearly stated I am for the separation.

Second, from what I understand the separation of church and state was not widely debated amongst the founding fathers--which indicates that they were all more or less in agreement with it. If that were not the case, it's unlikely that the Establishment Clause would have made it into the First Amendment.

Actually it was greatly debated, I can provide links to the actual floor debates if you are interested.

Only if by "mitigated" you mean "ignored." There is no question that he believed in a Creator, as I said earlier; but his religious outlook was that of a Deist, not a Bible-believing Christian in today's sense of the word.

I think we should let him define himself. We may have opinions as to what he was, but neither you nor I know with any degree of certainty what he believed.

Yeah, I suppose if you wanted you could provide select quotes that might indicate he was a Christian--however, to do so you'd have to take said quotes completely out of context, or warp them to the point of fabrication.

Not really, I think quotes can speak for themselves (rather, I prefer them in context, but sometimes quotes are all we have). I was merely stating the lack of balance.

 

[Ducky]

I think you're reading that into my post, as I clearly stated I am for the separation.


Actually it was greatly debated, I can provide links to the actual floor debates if you are interested.


I think we should let him define himself. We may have opinions as to what he was, but neither you nor I know with any degree of certainty what he believed.


Not really, I think quotes can speak for themselves (rather, I prefer them in context, but sometimes quotes are all we have). I was merely stating the lack of balance.

What lack of balance? The source documents are clearly cited. You are more than welcome to show how any of those quotes are out of context if you want to look them up.

 

[kmortis]

Let's see... there is the First Amendment or the Treaty of Tripoli (article 13 is it?) Aside from that, which of the many quotes I provided on Jefferson's views of separation of church and state were ambiguous?

Fowl
Article 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

To Cleon's point, asside from John Adams, Jefferson's long time Rival-Friend, Jefferson was the most prolific of the FFs. Only Adams' has more writings survivng to this day (IIRC, this is coming from a memory of David McCollough's bio of Adams). We'd quote the other FFs if they'd written more. Tom Paine get quoted because he wrote a few very important and, dare I say, pithy pieces that motivated the masses, but only TJ and Johnny Adams wrote down EVERYTHING. You want to know how many bales of cotton Montpiller produced during the years that TJ was President? It's possible to find out.

This American Atheist likes TJ because he is a complex, contradictory and coloful character. I also like Adams, Hamilton and Paine. Of them all, Franklin is my favorite (and he also has a number of anti-religious quotes, mainly due to his deep-seated distrust of organized religion, more than an anti-theitical point of view). I would wager that it is possible to find pro-morality quotes as well as anti-religion quotes from all the FFs. They were products of the times, and the Enlightenment was not favorable to organized relgion. Yes, there were some devout Christians amongst the FFs, but they were the minority; the Deists were way more common. AFAIK, there were no public atheists.

 

[Cleon]

I think you're reading that into my post, as I clearly stated I am for the separation.

I haven't said you weren't; but your "favorite of atheists" bit is a non sequitir, as the separation of church and state is widely supported by theists of all stripes.

Actually it was greatly debated, I can provide links to the actual floor debates if you are interested.

I am. My understanding is that the debate, such as it was, centered more around the actual wording than the inclusion of the concept itself. (This is beyond the debate about whether to include the Bill of Rights itself, which is a different matter entirely.)

I think we should let him define himself. We may have opinions as to what he was, but neither you nor I know with any degree of certainty what he believed.

Actually, we know with a great deal of certainty what he believed--because he was very outspoken about it and wrote it all down. I suppose it's possible he was lying about what he really thought, but if that's the case for all we know he secretly wanted to name a Schnauzer as King.

Not really, I think quotes can speak for themselves (rather, I prefer them in context, but sometimes quotes are all we have). I was merely stating the lack of balance.

Well, there's a "lack of balance" because the evidence all points to the fact that Jefferson was a Deist, and not a Bible-believing Christian in the modern sense of the term.

 

[Ducky]

Fowl
Article 11.


To Cleon's point, asside from John Adams, Jefferson's long time Rival-Friend, Jefferson was the most prolific of the FFs. Only Adams' has more writings survivng to this day (IIRC, this is coming from a memory of David McCollough's bio of Adams). We'd quote the other FFs if they'd written more. Tom Paine get quoted because he wrote a few very important and, dare I say, pithy pieces that motivated the masses, but only TJ and Johnny Adams wrote down EVERYTHING. You want to know how many bales of cotton Montpiller produced during the years that TJ was President? It's possible to find out.

This American Atheist likes TJ because he is a complex, contradictory and coloful character. I also like Adams, Hamilton and Paine. Of them all, Franklin is my favorite (and he also has a number of anti-religious quotes, mainly due to his deep-seated distrust of organized religion, more than an anti-theitical point of view). I would wager that it is possible to find pro-morality quotes as well as anti-religion quotes from all the FFs. They were products of the times, and the Enlightenment was not favorable to organized relgion. Yes, there were some devout Christians amongst the FFs, but they were the minority; the Deists were way more common. AFAIK, there were no public atheists.

Thanks K. I had forgotten which article, and didn't have any references in front of me.

 

[Blutarsky]

What lack of balance? The source documents are clearly cited. You are more than welcome to show how any of those quotes are out of context if you want to look them up.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the term "balance." What you are asserting is that I said you took the quotes out of "context" which you did not.

 

[Ducky]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the term "balance." What you are asserting is that I said you took the quotes out of "context" which you did not.

Apparently you are not understanding why I asked.

What lack of "balance" am I displaying?

Your words:

I was merely stating the lack of balance.

 

[Blutarsky]

I haven't said you weren't; but your "favorite of atheists" bit is a non sequitir, as the separation of church and state is widely supported by theists of all stripes.

Again, I think I worded it poorly. Let me restate. I rarely see atheists quote a founding father more about ANY issue than Jefferson.

I am. My understanding is that the debate, such as it was, centered more around the actual wording than the inclusion of the concept itself. (This is beyond the debate about whether to include the Bill of Rights itself, which is a different matter entirely.)

Actually the debate centered around the Establishment clause, but as such it is particularly related to any discussion of church/state separation. I'll post links when I get back from lunch.

Actually, we know with a great deal of certainty what he believed--because he was very outspoken about it and wrote it all down. I suppose it's possible he was lying about what he really thought, but if that's the case for all we know he secretly wanted to name a Schnauzer as King.

I feel that you know what you have chosen to read and focus on. Please give me some time to compose a rebuttal.

Well, there's a "lack of balance" because the evidence all points to the fact that Jefferson was a Deist, and not a Bible-believing Christian in the modern sense of the term.

I think it may be due to the lack of fervent research you've done to verify the veracity of the assertion...

 

[Ducky]

I think it may be due to the lack of fervent research you've done to verify the veracity of the assertion...

Please feel free to provide your research on this subject.