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28th Kingdom Challenges JREFers!

einsteen

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because I saw he posted the part below:


"NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below).

Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon." NIST FAQ #2

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Let me point out how unbelievably fruity the NIST is. They are comparing the initiation of the collapse to the actual collapse itself. They clearly state that this wasn't a pancake collapse... but INSTEAD, it was some sort of weird non-progressive collapse initiation i.e. bowing outer columns. Oh, I get it... a collapse didn't even occur... it was only a collapse initiation.

So, what is this new non-progressive collapse initiation called, anyway? Don't you see how NIST was talking about the actual collapse in the first paragraph... but in the 2nd paragraph, they switched from the collapse to the initiation of the collapse.

"Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom ... the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward." NIST FAQ #2

Classic Doublespeak. They say that the floors did NOT fail progressively, and then they say video evidence showed unambiguously that the collapse of floors progressed from the top to the bottom.

I have asked this of the JEFers before... and I will ask it again, as this is one of the times they turned into a bunch of chuckleheads with cat pics. NIST says that the pancake theory is not possible on these types of structures, and then they proclaim that the floors did NOT fail progressively like a pancake collapse, but instead the outer columns bowed inward and WHAT? How did the floors collapse after the outer columns failed? If not progressively like a pancake collapse, than HOW? Well, the NIST has that covered as well... here's what they say:

"As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it--much like the action of a piston--forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially ... the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass."

So, I want a JEFer to tell me... how the collapse of the Twin Towers differentiated from a pancake collapse. That is the 3.5 billion dollar question...
 
"Pancake" is a general, non-technical term for a progressive vertical collapse, but the term "pancake theory" is a very specific reference to a very specific theory of what initiated the collapse: It suggested that collapse began when a floor fell away from the perimeter columns and impacted the floor below. The NIST study found that, instead, the collapse began when the perimeter columns buckled inward. Since "pancake" is not a technical term, many people will use that term for what happened after the collapse began, to mean the same thing as "progressive vertical collapse" or "global collapse", i.e. what everyone saw happen. This criticism of the NIST report amounts to ignorant gibberish.
 
C'mon Einsteen, NIST wasn't CHARGED with describing the "collapse", the were only instructed to find the mechanism for INITIATION. They fulfilled their mandate. We don't need any complicated "calculations" or "modelling". Once the "collapse" was "initiated", it was "unstoppable". Total "collapse" was "obvious".
 
So, I want a JEFer to tell me... how the collapse of the Twin Towers differentiated from a pancake collapse. That is the 3.5 billion dollar question...
We've told you numerous times already, but I'll speak slowly this time and use small words.

A classic pancake collapse is one where one floor collapses, for whatever reason, and that floor hitting the floor beneath it collapses that one, then the chain reaction has begun.

That's not what happened in the towers, as your NIST quotes explain. The collapse was not initiated when one floor hit another one - it was initiated by the bowing perimeter columns causing massive structural failure.

Once this failure was initiated, all that stuff fell onto the building below, taking out floors mostly sequentially, but this isn't what's known as a pancake collapse.
 
Why challenge JREFers? I have a better idea.

Zdenek P. Bazant has a piece in the March 2007 edition of the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, titled "Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from Trade Center and Building Demolitions". In it he describes why the WTC collapsed, and for instance says:

The kinetic energy of the top part of the tower impacting the floor below was found to be about 8.4 larger than the plastic energy absorption capability of the underlying story, and considerably higher than that if fracturing were taken into account (Bažant and Zhou 2002a). This fact, along with the fact that during the progressive collapse of underlying stories Figs. 1(d) and 2 the loss of gravitational potential per story is much greater than the energy dissipated per story, was sufficient for Bažant and Zhou (2002a) to conclude, purely on energy grounds, that the tower was doomed once the top part of the tower dropped through the height of one story (or even 0.5 m). It was also observed that this conclusion made any calculations of the dynamics of progressive collapse after the first single-story drop of upper part superfluous. The relative smallness of energy absorption capability compared to the kinetic energy also sufficed to explain, without any further calculations, why the collapse duration could not have been much longer (say, twice as long or more) than the duration of a free fall from the tower top.

Therefore, no further analysis has been necessary to prove that the WTC towers had to fall the way they did, due to gravity alone. However, a theory describing the progressive collapse dynamics beyond the initial trigger, with the WTC as a paradigm, could nevertheless be very useful for other purposes, especially for learning from demolitions. It could also help to clear up misunderstanding (and thus to dispel the myth of planted explosives).
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/ProgressiveCollapseWTC-6-23-2006.pdf
The tower was doomed? The speed of the collapse was no surprise? No further analysis is necessary? Amazing! It's almost as though he's never heard of Ace Baker or Gordon Ross.

Anyway, if the truthers really want to get the message out, then surely here's a perfect opportunity. Write a response to Bazant, show how he's really just an incompetent idiot who has no idea what he's talking about, and get it aired in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Far more productive than challenging us, surely? So go to it. And be sure to report back regularly on how you're getting on.
 
I hope William Seger and CurtC can amicably split the $3.5 billion. einsteen, is that U.S. dollars, and how will it be paid?
 
Why challenge JREFers? I have a better idea.

Zdenek P. Bazant has a piece in the March 2007 edition of the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, titled "Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from Trade Center and Building Demolitions". In it he describes why the WTC collapsed, and for instance says:


The tower was doomed? The speed of the collapse was no surprise? No further analysis is necessary? Amazing! It's almost as though he's never heard of Ace Baker or Gordon Ross.

Anyway, if the truthers really want to get the message out, then surely here's a perfect opportunity. Write a response to Bazant, show how he's really just an incompetent idiot who has no idea what he's talking about, and get it aired in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Far more productive than challenging us, surely? So go to it. And be sure to report back regularly on how you're getting on.
Glad to see it published there. I've been asking CTs to read that since June, and not once has anyone had a rebuttal of any kind to any statement in the document.
 
I like where he says the NIST is "unbelievably fruity." Maybe now the engineers of the world will take notice.
 
28K has a hard time with initiation and progression. Or he likes to mix them up in order to create his illusion of DoubleSpeak.
 
It's too bad 28th didn't keep reading that document, or else he would have come across this:


"In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view."
 
I hope William Seger and CurtC can amicably split the $3.5 billion. einsteen, is that U.S. dollars, and how will it be paid?
Maybe they could be paid in the equivalent amount of crude oil? After all it's no secret, we all love the "black stuff" here at the NWO!
 
C'mon Einsteen, NIST wasn't CHARGED with describing the "collapse", the were only instructed to find the mechanism for INITIATION. They fulfilled their mandate. We don't need any complicated "calculations" or "modelling". Once the "collapse" was "initiated", it was "unstoppable". Total "collapse" was "obvious".
Remind readers again of your credentials with regard to structural engineering. Many thanks!
 

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