Annoying creationists

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But the question was whether naturalism has been adequate so far.
Has it been? It would be an interesting claim. Care to prove it.

No one implied that science is finished.
It never started in the areas of contention, and never will.

What comes back is mostly "don't know yet."
You are wrong. What comes back is the inAdequate-inArticulett-Ynatzi-Schneibster-et al supercilious nastiness, aided and abetted by a group of moderators who protect their favorites.

What? You appear to be focusing on a few ideas that people are tossing about as some sort of evidence that they are closed-minded.
And that evidence abounds on JREF, in this thread, and many others.

At the same time, you ask people to be open-minded about your ideas.
And the evidence of that happening is also abundantly demonstrated to be completely lacking to any rational observer.
 
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..., aided and abetted by a group of moderators who protect their favorites.
Sorry hammegk, I'm going to have to disagree with that.

If anyone was going to be picked on for being the least favourite, as well as a disruptive, abusive prick, it would be me and I haven't even had a warning in the past three months. Love 'em or hate 'em, you can't plead bias.
 
The evidence does not seem to support that statement.

I know - and I just admitted that much in the above post!

It just had that nice divisive ring about it. Surprised to find anyone other than John reading my posts, so give yourself a pat on the back for above and beyond the call of duty!
 
You are wrong. What comes back is the inAdequate-inArticulett-Ynatzi-Schneibster-et al supercilious nastiness, aided and abetted by a group of moderators who protect their favorites.

I think everyone would like to discuss facts--but none are ever offered by the creationists. Moreover, the rudest and most insulting people are blind to how offensive and off putting they are while crying and whining and screaming "no fair" when it comes back in far more tempered versions. You guys have an absolute inability to see yourselves.

Really. Cut and paste your comments and put them side by side to the worst comments you have seen from others--with an ordering of which post is in response to what--and ask any group of people whose comments are worse--who started the ad homs-- The problem with the dicks, is that they don't know what dicks they are. They just think everyone else is one. Yes, we think your theories or hypothesis etc. suck--but you don't ever present any evidence in support of any proposition that we can argue--you just use obfuscations, sarcasm, and ad homs--and then cry "no fair" when it is returned with far more eloquence and intelligence then you had managed to offer. You are only likable and reasonable and engaging in civil discourse IN YOUR OWN HEADS. There is no evidence on this forum that people are hearing what you are saying except that you are all saying evolution is wrong or has big problems and "something else" is a better answer.

Every time you whine or post the rules of this forum Hammy, you send the masses into fits of giggles, because every complaint readily applies to you more than anyone else. Really. Welcome to the reality based community. We're not the one's claiming to have "special knowledge"--that would be those of you who support "intelligent design" and the like.
 
the rudest and most insulting people are blind to how offensive and off putting they are while crying and whining and screaming "no fair" when it comes back in far more tempered versions. You guys have an absolute inability to see yourselves.
Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence that this sounds a lot like the article you linked in your signature. I think we may have discovered a general principle. A general psychiatric principle. Isn't that interesting? Well, I suppose "interesting" in a slightly disgusting way, like watching all the sickly white slimy things crawl away looking for somewhere to hide when you turn over a rock.
 
Oh gosh, I didn't know I was being tested - I am left wondering who is my judge? The facts you cite always seem to me either entirely irrelevant or just plain wrong - but then I actually know a lot of chemistry and molecular biology.

That's amazing--because you seem to be unable to convey it to the many other people here who also know chemistry and molecular biology. However you imagine yourself brilliant enough to make the following assertions which nobody can pin you down on.

1. "there's no such thing as memes"
2. "current evolutionary theory and abiogenesis has big problems"
3. "ribonucleic acids are too unstable to be the first replicators"
4. "information via the sun and oscillations should be considered the "designer" of life's code--and the replicators should be considered the cells"
5. All other conjecture about abiogenesis is trite and readily dismissed as uninteresting and unimportant.
6. You assert that humans have something special (in your link) called "free will"--and other life forms don't have it. And this is important to your concepts of how sexuality, humor, and sexual deviancy evolve-- You don't think genes and memes are sufficient or good at explaining these traits and traits such as morality, and presumably you think you have a much better explanation but no scientists will listen to you.


So here is your chance. Everyone tries to listen--but no one can yet sum up what you are saying. Feel free to correct anything I got wrong. You have had chance after chance after chance--you cannot seem to fathom that maybe your ideas are not being grasped because they don't take the facts we know into account and/or they are not clear, useful, nor helpful in furthering understanding. Plus you see to have absolutely no curiosity about current developments in the field.

Calling everyone who tries to muddle through whatever you have to say a "lying cheating meanie" who is too stupid to understand anything--just helps fulfill your belief that you are a genius who has the key to show that evolution is on the wrong track and you somehow can explain it better through a more useful "epistemological" explanation. Certainly, you can see how that makes you very much like Michael Behe--a known creationist. These traits are traits of his as well as all scientists who have attempted to wade through his crap can probably attest...except for maybe those who have a vested interest in "intelligent design".

You guys cry like you are going to "take your ball and go home"--but you never had the ball.

Yahzi, Dr. A., and Schneibster are my heroes. You guys bleat on for pages saying nothing and tell yourselves how evolution is a false "dogma" while never bringing anything of value to the table when you have a willing audience, well schooled on evolution willing to subject the facts to any actual test that someone has. The knowledge brought forth by evolution is amazing , strong, and verified in incredible ways all the time. You lie to yourselves and anyone who will listen to you to support some illusory purpose. You add nothing to the knowledge of others because you are too busy protecting your ego and lying to yourselves--you can't believe that you could be wrong.

And your summation of Kleinman's views is an insult to Paul who spent hours explaining and testing and clarifying and writing programs for his idiotic contention that genomes couldn't evolve according to some inane math problem. No answer satisfies you guys...no amount of evidence ever will... You waste time, but at least you are online and not making the masses ignorant, and the rest of us have the pleasure of watching evolution explained and tested and refined in action.

If you can't communicate your hypothesis, test it, use it, nullify it--or explain why it is stronger than the information we have--then it is only good in your imagination. It is only right to you. It's useless in reality. Do you want to know the truth as best we can--or do you want to believe that somehow you already have it and the rest of us just won't listen?
 
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Jolly decent of you to care so much as to spend time going through my posts like that!

...

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begin
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for n:=1 to length(s) do
begin
if s[n] in p then
begin
if (w='I') or (w='I''m') or (w='I''d') or (w='I''ll') or (w='I''ve') or (w='me') or (w='Me') or (w='my') or (w='My') or (w='mine') or (w='Mine') then t:=t+w+' ... ';
w:=''
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else w:=w+s[n]
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I:=t
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Yes, but I'm sure you had to run the program and post the results. Jolly friendly.

Hey, I've been looking for you in chat, let me know what time you're in there so I can say hi.
 
If you actually read books by IDers - rather than just ranting about them - you would read some serious, valid critiques of modern evolutionary theory.

And if you actually read Darwin and Dawkins and even Dennett instead of dismissing them or purposely noting how you don't read them, you might understand why these valid critiques are not actually valid. In fact, you have not been able to coherently state a single valid complaint. You claim to be a scientist, but you want to discuss epistemology...your degrees are an M.A. and a Ph.D. You don't adhere to the basic premises of science or the scientific methodology. You think some intelligent design proponents have valid arguments against evolution--but the only one we hear from you is the one about cells being the "true replicators" per Behe--and you don't seem to understand why that is a useless path nor do you understand why that is a creationist argument. Data streams vs. genes? Any evidence other than your conjecture that RNA is too unstable to have been the first replicator?

You continually talk down to people who, sound a lot more intelligent and educated than you. You talk down about Dawkins but sound like a mental midget in comparison--not to mention your intellectual Paucity in comparison to those you insult on this forum.
 
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The evidence does not seem to support that statement.

I agree...to me it seems that those who "don't fit in", certainly don't #### off. They complain about how every one on the forum is mean to them and what liars and cheaters and unfair debaters forum members and moderators are (and scientists and skeptics and all others who express negativity towards their pet views.)

I think the majority of people on this forum are really intelligent and interesting and funny--with a few loud and omnipresent "interesting-ian" types. And I suspect that is what most of the forum members think...which is why they stay. I just can't fathom why the complainers do. (Not that I'm discouraging them...I enjoy the soap opera of the clueless)... Maybe they are engaging in some fascinating dialogue on some other thread I'm not visiting.

(It's not crapola, Paul. It's entertainment.)
 
Since we're discussing classification, I suppose it's worth mentioning that they ALWAYS claim to have advanced degrees in some specialized technical discipline they never actually say anything technical about. John appears to believe he has a degree in molecular biology. I have yet to see any of the jargon of the trade.
 
Somehow I don't think it's a coincidence that this sounds a lot like the article you linked in your signature. I think we may have discovered a general principle. A general psychiatric principle. Isn't that interesting? Well, I suppose "interesting" in a slightly disgusting way, like watching all the sickly white slimy things crawl away looking for somewhere to hide when you turn over a rock.

Yeah, but these don't crawl away. They stick around. So I say, let's dissect them, and find out what we can learn!

(And I got that link on your "skeptoid" thread--I think kellyb posted it--and I think it explains a lot. The dolts never seem to know they are the dolts...they just presume everyone else is.)
 
(All bolding and changes of colour to posts is mine)
Cut and paste your comments and put them side by side to the worst comments you have seen from others--with an ordering of which post is in response to what--and ask any group of people whose comments are worse--who started the ad homs--

The problem with the dicks, is that they don't know what dicks they are. They just think everyone else is one. Yes, we think your theories or hypothesis etc. suck--

Hell yeah, I'll play. That's 2 to you.

And you sneaked a couple more in after that:

You continually talk down to people who, sound a lot more intelligent and educated than you. You talk down about Dawkins but sound like a mental midget in comparison--not to mention your intellectual Paucity in comparison to those you insult on this forum.

Now, going back through the thread, let's keep count.

4-0 to you.

That is a lie. ...
...--not just pouting...

...--you're just like a whining kid in the backseat ..."
7-0
This would imply that you would understand sensible debate. There is no evidence that you have engaged any. This forum is filled with back and forth discussion of Dr. Adequate--no one but those whom no one else seems to even understand has made accusations about his debating skills or his science.

You have demonstrated no social competence, no debating competence, no scientific competence, no credibility, and not even a comprehensible "hypothesize" that anyone can sum up.

Irony. I see it as evidence of a creationist
.
I'll be generous and call that 2.

9-0

And presumably, your "theory" is more adequate....--

My god, a whole post with none! See, you can do it! Well, you did it once, anyway.

Struggling to find one coming back, so I'll go with this to get John on the board:
Today, you have again presented the group with an extended screed of ad hominem abuse. Those who try to debate alongside you must find your behaviour an embarrassment.

Barely worth 1, but we'll call it 9 - 1.

A lot of bright people have waded through your BS writings and tried to make sense of it. The least you can do is stop the insults and tell the truth about your beliefs instead of claiming naivete about the meaning of the word naturalism. You may think that your beliefs don't affect your work. But I submit that they are the reason no scientist can actually grasp what you are saying. Many of us read all types of scientific articles and have no problems grasping what is being said. Why can't anyone grasp your "theory"?

You are harder to make sense of than the bible.

11 - 1. (nice note about insults from John. Where the hell are they?)

That's the past week. Get that result, Arti, honey? ELEVEN - ONE!

N.B. I have looked only at posts which you and John have directed at each other - it would take me a week to get all of yours directed elsewhere onto one post.

So, the clear winner of the flame war, Arti. vs John, is YOU, honey. And the bad news is that you also started it.

What was your point again?

I'm surprised you're a woman, there's more wank in your posts than the average teenage boy's underpants.
 
Since we're discussing classification, I suppose it's worth mentioning that they ALWAYS claim to have advanced degrees in some specialized technical discipline they never actually say anything technical about. John appears to believe he has a degree in molecular biology. I have yet to see any of the jargon of the trade.

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.hewitt1/pg_pref.htm

I am a Yorkshireman, born 1947 in Bradford, West Yorkshire of a working class family. After attending a local grammar I went up, as they say, to Trinity College, Cambridge to study science, duly graduated and took a Ph.D. at the MRC laboratory for Molecular Biology also in Cambridge; I continued in research, in the US and England. The work from which "A Habit of Lies" grew, was done during the early part of 1978, following the beginning of my time as a university demonstrator in biochemistry at Cambridge. In the language used by most institutions, demonstrator means junior lecturer or assistant professor.
. . .

http://www.sexandphilosophy.co.uk/pe00_prebiotic_index.htm

However influential the gene concept may be in evolution, I have a serious problem with it. In my opinion, the gene is simply not an acceptable foundation for evolutionary theory. Now, please, my biologically trained readers, do not misunderstand me here. This essay will not present a creationist viewpoint and I fully accept that genes exist and that "selfish" genes improved on what they replaced – eliminating the idea that a species could be a unit of selection was a big advance – but that success should not blind people to the problems inherent in the idea of genes as central to all evolution. I do think there are serious problems with this approach and I am surprised at how little serious criticism of it is ever published. I will argue that, in reality, genes are not basic to evolution at all. In my view, the gene-centred approach to evolutionary theory is wrong in principle and in substance and that those errors become most clear when one attempts to merge of biological evolution with other forms of evolution, namely intellectual and social evolution.


. . .

http://www.sexandphilosophy.co.uk/bioepistemic.htm

Bioepistemic evolution recognizes this result and rejects the idea of fundamental replicators in evolving systems. Instead, bioepistemic evolution is built from the concept of stored data with biological evolution being described in terms of the data stored in DNA. This is the data that is formatted in genes.

Bare Bones Argument for the Theory of Prebiotic Oscillations

The theory takes two sets of premises

1. Our current best understanding of the chemical and physical conditions that prevailed on the early earth during the period of life's first emergence. The prebiotic earth is taken to have been quite warm, volcanically active, very moist, stormy and exposed to solar UV radiation. The prebiotic environment included a complex mixture of organic chemicals, the primordial soup. It is taken that life emerged from this environment by a process of evolution


. . .

Broadly, three proposals (models or hypotheses) have been advanced to explain the experimental observations. Although three ideas have been put forward, debate, investigation and reporting have portrayed the field as if only two of those models are possibilities, with virtually no explanation of how the third hypothesis was eliminated. This fact alone signals a poor investigation but it will be argued here that the proposals receiving the attention are plainly incorrect. The substantive evidence indicates that the neglected idea is actually the best.


His theory comes from nearly 30 years ago. It might have value, but he seems unaware of current research and angry and dismissive when it is brought to his attention. He thinks people are clearly keeping his view from being heard. I tried to cut and paste and find some cohesiveness or value, but I can't. It gets worse (from my perspective) when he gets into sex and humor. He seems to feel that group selection cannot be accounted for by genes nor can moral dilemmas despite multiple references given to him on the topic. He seems like a nice guy stuck on an old idea that he thinks didn't get a fair shake at one time--but I don't understand it enough to convey it to anyone, and I think it didn't get a fair shake because it wasn't coherent...it isn't useful for furthering understanding... Maybe the people at IIDB can understand it or find use for it. To me, it seems like he has been so invested in this theory, that he has missed some important data in the field--

Everyone he seems to think is mean, wrong, closed minded, unfair, dismissive, etc. and lying cheating scientists, are people who seem intelligent and remarkably coherent to me. Those whom he thinks have valid criticisms like Behe and his "cells are replicators" and those "other" ID proponents he refers to, are people whom I think are incoherent--like Kleinman.

If someone could sum up what he was trying to say, it might help his case. But I just get the feeling he's going to shop around his idea until someone attaches to it. He encourages cellular biology students to ask their teachers about his theory-- what I want to know is this-- what is his theory?--his model (and what, in brief, are the other two options that get all the attention--one is "genes" as replicators, what is the other?)...why does he think his data stream model is better or more explanatory than what we are working on. Can any of the very intelligent people on this forum tell me? We could be missing something really important just because we can't tell what he's actually saying. He thinks his data theory, not only explains the origins of life, but things like humor and sexual deviancy--I don't know how he links all this together--but, in his head at least, it all goes together. Read his links.

John, if no one is able to come back and paraphrase or sum up what you are communicating--then that makes you less comprehensible than Kleinman and his faulty math example. That isn't good for your cause or furthering understanding.
 
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But the question was whether naturalism has been adequate so far. No one implied that science is finished.
What comes back is mostly "don't know yet."
Yes, absolutely, I don't know yet and you don't know yet. So please ask Yahzi to stop demanding a declaration of faith that one day we all will know. My answer was "dunno" - what is your problem?

What? You appear to be focusing on a few ideas that people are tossing about as some sort of evidence that they are closed-minded. At the same time, you ask people to be open-minded about your ideas.

~~ Paul
The ideas in question are
1. That a self-replicating molecule can be made from RNA. Yes, I consider that extraordinary and unsupported by any evidence and outside of any parallel.
2. That reality includes a virtual infinity of parallel universes, undetectable from the one which we inhabit.

My suggestion, as an alternative, is that the sun comes up in the morning and goes down at night and that it provides the data flow that triggers evolution.

And you think my claims are extraordinary?
 
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Read his links.

John, if no one is able to come back and paraphrase or sum up what you are communicating--then that makes you less comprehensible than Kleinman and his faulty math example. That isn't good for your cause or furthering understanding.
Yes, I recommend reading the links but I do not recommend doing what Articulett has done and jumbling quotes from both sites together.
 
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