Hello JREF, I bring you "Tin Foil"!

[Nick Terry]

Oh... I am indeed a believer of many... and critical of many others.

OK, enough sizzle. Which are the top half-dozen you believe in, and which half-dozen famous conspiracy theories are you critical of?

 

[SkepticGuy]

Or he could be trying to recruit membership to Above Top Secret,

I have no illusions that any active members of JREF would be attracted to our site.

We get almost more than we can handle every day... and I apoligize of my contribution is seen as a recruitment attempt.

I just think that there is more in common than you realize, and that a harsh skeptical approach is an important factor in finding truth.

 

[kookbreaker]

Oh... I am indeed a believer of many... and critical of many others.

Vaugness topped with obfuscation, wrapped in Cheese Whiz.

and a side order of waffles.

 

[beachnut]

Oh come off it Beachnut. Stop calling people liars, it's getting annoying.

Can you pm me when he gets to some facts, please? I think it may be a few years since it has been 5 years, and he seem to have a big void where the facts should be.

Thank you.

kookbreaker has said it all. good job

 

[ConspiRaider]

I have no illusions that any active members of JREF would be attracted to our site.

We get almost more than we can handle every day... and I apoligize of my contribution is seen as a recruitment attempt.

I just think that there is more in common than you realize, and that a harsh skeptical approach is an important factor in finding truth.

Okay. We'll be the judge of that. However you did state that you believe many conspiracy theories.

In order for us to determine "more in common", we need a reference point, not evasive generalities.

Please describe a SINGLE conspiracy theory in which you believe, and explain the hows and the whys of your arrival at embracing such a theory.

 

[Pardalis]

Can you pm me when he gets to some facts, please? I think it may be a few years since it has been 5 years, and he seem to have a big void where the facts should be.

I think Skepticguy has shown that he has a good understanding of who the Twoofers are, so to me, that makes him worthy of respect. I don't have time to read his website, but as far as his posting here has gone, he hasn't made any wild claims about 9/11 yet.

 

[SkepticGuy]

OK, enough sizzle. Which are the top half-dozen you believe in, and which half-dozen famous conspiracy theories are you critical of?

Top "conspiracies" I feel have merrit:
1- The Roswell UFO incident was a cold-war propaganda campaign
2- Regan did negotiate with Iranian terrorists
3- Northwoods would have gone forward if not for Kennedy
4- Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated
5- Perl Harbor was "allowed" to be attacked
6- My socks are being stolen by intelligent dust bunnies in the dryer

Top "conspiracies" I feel have no merrit:
1- I think a passenger airline struck the Pentagon on 9/11
2- I don't think we invaded Afghanistan for oil
3- I don't think Elvis or Hitler is still alive
4- I think the vast majority of UFO sightings are tests of advanced aircraft
5- I think John Titor was a hoax
6- I think we landed on the moon

 

[The Doc]

I used to post over at ATS.

To be honest, you guys attract a lot of whack jobs. Like... real crazy people.

 

[beachnut]

I think Skepticguy has shown that he has a good understanding of who the Twoofers are, so to me, that makes him worthy of respect. I don't have time to read his website, but as far as his posting here has gone, he hasn't made any wild claims about 9/11 yet.

He made a veiled attemp to connect Northwoods with 9/11. That is misleading and false without facts.

That is a wild claim when there are zero facts to support 9/11 CT.

He talks without saying much. I doubt we will ever see facts on 9/11 from and CT guys.

He is making an attempt to say he has something to support CT but he does not. His claims so far are just talk trying to get others to think there is a CT because he says there are due to Northwoods etc.

I will look up a better term than liar; misleader, false idea man. I am not sure but when I read his statement he exposes his veiled attempt to show how 9/11 was a CT. I must be reading things, but it seems to be showing through his talk.

I agree my posts are as bad as his for facts and I will wait for a fact.

You have a good point. Joking about the pm.

 

[Nick Terry]

Top "conspiracies" I feel have merrit:
1- The Roswell UFO incident was a cold-war propaganda campaign
2- Regan did negotiate with Iranian terrorists
3- Northwoods would have gone forward if not for Kennedy
4- Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated
5- Perl Harbor was "allowed" to be attacked
6- My socks are being stolen by intelligent dust bunnies in the dryer

Top "conspiracies" I feel have no merrit:
1- I think a passenger airline struck the Pentagon on 9/11
2- I don't think we invaded Afghanistan for oil
3- I don't think Elvis or Hitler is still alive
4- I think the vast majority of UFO sightings are tests of advanced aircraft
5- I think John Titor was a hoax
6- I think we landed on the moon

Well, I'd disagree with you about Pearl Harbor, but you're definitely on the money about the intelligent dust-bunny sock-thieves.



^
We have us a relatively sane CTer, folks.

 

[Pardalis]

I must be reading things, but it seems to be showing through his talk.

I can't say I blame you, with all the insane Troofers that come here every day, no wonder we get uptight whenever someone new arrives.

 

[jhunter1163]

Well, would you look at that. SkepticGuy directly answered a question!

That, in all seriousness, puts him WAY above almost all of the Twoofers who come here. Now we have something to discuss!

1. Could be so. There was a lot of Cold War paranoia at that time. It wouldn't be too hard to whip it up further. Maybe the USG took advantage of the balloon crash to score some propaganda points. It wouldn't surprise me.

2. Undoubtedly true, no matter how he tried to rationalize it.

3. I'm not so sure about this one. It would have been REAL risky. Not so sure McNamara and the gang would have let that go.

4. First one, no. Second one, yes.

5. I don't think so, just my opinion. We knew SOMETHING was coming, but didn't have enough quality intelligence to alert/prevent it.

6. Also undoubtedly true. They steal mine as well.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Top "conspiracies" I feel have merrit:
1- The Roswell UFO incident was a cold-war propaganda campaign
2- Regan did negotiate with Iranian terrorists
3- Northwoods would have gone forward if not for Kennedy
4- Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated
5- Perl Harbor was "allowed" to be attacked
6- My socks are being stolen by intelligent dust bunnies in the dryer

Top "conspiracies" I feel have no merrit:
1- I think a passenger airline struck the Pentagon on 9/11
2- I don't think we invaded Afghanistan for oil
3- I don't think Elvis or Hitler is still alive
4- I think the vast majority of UFO sightings are tests of advanced aircraft
5- I think John Titor was a hoax
6- I think we landed on the moon

This is an apples-oranges comparison list. Nothing here is a "ray of sunshine" that I can see. Your top 5 examples don't fall into the CT category.

You must have something more. You made the comparison between Northwoods and 9/11. I'm going to infer that you believe 9/11 was an inside job, that it was a false flag operation. Am I correct in my inference?

 

[Brainster]

I'll have to revert to some research... and links for the recent stuff... but certainly you're aware of the FBI's counter intelligence and infiltration efforts that created the LA gang wars? There was even an HBO special covering it.

Welcome to JREF, BTW. And thanks for hosting Catherder's amazing post; it's certainly an example that CTers can be excellent skeptics as well (usually about those parts of others Conspiracy Theories they don't agree with personally).

That cointelpro by the FBI has gone on in the past and may even be continuing I do not doubt at all. That it has gone on with specific regard to 9-11 Denial is what I am interested in hearing about. Past cointelpro operations have been largely directed at organizations that were either engaging in criminal activity (no problem) or mass movements that threatened to disrupt society (problem). I don't see the "Truth" movement having either that power or that threat.

Yes, that's the most recent "surprise" isn't it? Something about Urantia.

As best I can tell, Les Jamieson is not using 9-11 Denial to advance his Urantia theories, although of course being apparently in control of the NY group does give him quite some power. If I were you, I'd be more concerned about the Stalinists and Scientologists. And those seeking to create a cult of personality (e.g., Alex Jones).

 

[NobbyNobbs]

If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to do what I can...

Hi, SkepticGuy. I have just one question right now, and it's contained in the first post of this thread. Feel free to address it either there or here.

I know it's a generalization, and you seem to be an exception to the rule, but I see it happening more often than not. Thanks for any light you can shed.

 

[SkepticGuy]

This is an apples-oranges comparison list.

So says you. Each item has a history of conspiracy theory speculation.

Nothing here is a "ray of sunshine" that I can see.

You missed my dynamic personality then.

Your top 5 examples don't fall into the CT category.

I think you have a narrow definition of "conspiracy theory". They are indeed. In fact, the UFOlogy 'field' is rampant with conspiracies.

You made the comparison between Northwoods and 9/11.

As an example to show one example of on-the-shelf planning that has similar attributes to a current event.

I'm going to infer that you believe 9/11 was an inside job,

To some degree, but I'm certain not to the extent you seem to assume I do.

that it was a false flag operation.

It has attributes that have similarities with similar operations in the past. There is a mountain of material for any angle you want to take on the subject. What most skeptics of conspiracy theory, and 9/11 Truthers, both don't understand... is that it's possible for the events to have occurred, to have been perpetrated by fundamentalist terrorists, to actually involve passenger aircraft, yet still be guided to happen by subtle covert maneuverings by a limited circle of people in dark corners of mysterious government agencies. Some people derive entertainment value from assuming a grainy bit of a low-res photo is a bomb-pod under a passenger aircraft... I don't go there. (I'm not saying such a think is impossible, but my focus has been on connecting how this compares with other conspiracy events... leaving the bombs, pods, and missiles to others.)

 

[Nick Terry]

It has attributes that have similarities with similar operations in the past. There is a mountain of material for any angle you want to take on the subject. What most skeptics of conspiracy theory, and 9/11 Truthers, both don't understand... is that it's possible for the events to have occurred, to have been perpetrated by fundamentalist terrorists, to actually involve passenger aircraft, yet still be guided to happen by subtle covert maneuverings by a limited circle of people in dark corners of mysterious government agencies. Some people derive entertainment value from assuming a grainy bit of a low-res photo is a bomb-pod under a passenger aircraft... I don't go there. (I'm not saying such a think is impossible, but my focus has been on connecting how this compares with other conspiracy events... leaving the bombs, pods, and missiles to others.)

What would be the key indicators of covert maneuverings, in your opinion?

 

[ConspiRaider]

It has attributes that have similarities with similar operations in the past. There is a mountain of material for any angle you want to take on the subject. What most skeptics of conspiracy theory, and 9/11 Truthers, both don't understand... is that it's possible for the events to have occurred, to have been perpetrated by fundamentalist terrorists, to actually involve passenger aircraft, yet still be guided to happen by subtle covert maneuverings by a limited circle of people in dark corners of mysterious government agencies. Some people derive entertainment value from assuming a grainy bit of a low-res photo is a bomb-pod under a passenger aircraft... I don't go there. (I'm not saying such a think is impossible, but my focus has been on connecting how this compares with other conspiracy events... leaving the bombs, pods, and missiles to others.)

Okay, thanks much for that. My next inference is that your position on 9/11 is remarkably similar to, if not identical to, the stance taken by David Ray Griffin. Would that be a correct inference on my part?

 

[gumboot]

Top "conspiracies" I feel have merrit:
1- The Roswell UFO incident was a cold-war propaganda campaign
2- Regan did negotiate with Iranian terrorists
3- Northwoods would have gone forward if not for Kennedy
4- Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated
5- Perl Harbor was "allowed" to be attacked
6- My socks are being stolen by intelligent dust bunnies in the dryer

Top "conspiracies" I feel have no merrit:
1- I think a passenger airline struck the Pentagon on 9/11
2- I don't think we invaded Afghanistan for oil
3- I don't think Elvis or Hitler is still alive
4- I think the vast majority of UFO sightings are tests of advanced aircraft
5- I think John Titor was a hoax
6- I think we landed on the moon

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of these are really Conspiracy Theories, are they? Okay, maybe Pearl Harbor.

How about you try rephrase in the follow methodology:

I do/don't believe X conspired with X to illegally X in order to X.

Example:

I don't believe George W Bush conspired with Dick Cheney and the CIA to illegally kill 3,000 American citizens and blame it on Al Qaeda in order to justify an invasion of Afghanistan.

-Gumboot

 

[Gravy]

It seems you're blurring the lines between conspiracy theorists and "9/11 activists"... if not tossing the lines out altogether.

Think of me as a ray of sunshine, bringing truth, justice, and disruptive thinking to the masses.


In reality, believe it or not, I've long admired the efforts of Randi and his group. My main concern, and the concern of most of our members, is truth. In the spectrum of "what is" we have skeptical rejection on one end, and speculative assertions on the other. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth... and we both want to find it, we just begin from different perspectives.

There are several fallacies here. The terms "conspiracy theorist" and "9/11 activist" are not mutually exclusive. We deal with 9/11 conspiracy theorists, some of whom are activists. We also deal with other conspiracy theories, but 9/11 gets the most play. We care about facts, not labels.

The "middle ground" argument is also a fallacy. 9/11 conspiracy theorists don't have evidence to back their claims. Their theories do not share equal ground with facts.

You mistake critical thinking for "skeptical rejection." Please don't make that mistake.