McMartin preschool, ted gunderson, by requestI am sceptical about Ritual Abuse and nI

[sophia8]

Ahhhh, I knew I had heard Mr. Randi's name somewhere before. (Why does he call himself Mister Randi, anyway?)
Yeah, I would have believed all you read, too if I hadn't lived it.
Religious Tolerance defends real satanists and witches. That is fine, don't get me wrong. I think they claim they are harmless as they well may be. That should be their fight if people are falsely accusing them of child molestation and worse. They don't want to hear form anyone like pesky little me who lived through it..so mote it be for them I personally don't care for satanists, wouldn't want any of my children marrying one and all that.

OK Jacque. Time for me to come out and identify myself as a witch. And I really just love being called a child molestor.
As for satanists - I know some. Trouble is, anybody can call themselves a satanist - there's no membership rolls or anything. And my daughters can marry whoever they like.
I'm perfectly happy to hear your views and experiences - I lived through the "Satanic Abuse" stuff too, wondering when the social workers were going to come for my kids.
And thank you for calling me harmless! Religious Tolerance, BTW, does not "defend" satanists and witches - they simply present the facts on all religions and religious belief in a non-judgemental way.
And tell me - exactly what have satanists and witches have done to be "defended" for?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Here is where I come down on the issue of False Memory Syndrome and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

I doubt, since there is no well-described symptom cluster that fits most of the cases, that there is such a thing as False Memory Syndrome.

I do not doubt that people have False Memories and that they cause problems.

Traumatic Repression happens, which is something that the FMSF denies in every way they can and still look unbiased.

Evidence?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Uhoh, I have to admit that I knew Summit well, also.
His syndrome is a syndrome and he never said is wasn't.
The Child Abuse Accommodation Syndrome explains why SOME children take back things they said and even sometimes deny they were abused.
False Memory Syndrome should be the same. It explains why SOME people could have memories suggested to them and then believe them, but not that ALL abuse cases can be explained that way. Especially when you are talking about hundreds of people in the same case...not really too likely.
Most of our kids have not taken back what they said. The exception is Kyle Sapp who was interviewed by........Debbie Nathan.
www.ndaa.org/pdf/slides_archive.pdf

Read the real paper, not the article on it by............IPT

False memories show the creation of memories, not the destruction of memories. It is a creative process not a destructive one. So how does that remove a memory?

 

[davefoc]

First a disclaimer: I long ago formed an opinion that the McMartin school case probably did not involve any wrong doing by the McMartin school staff. I also, long ago, formed an opinion that memories of things that never happened could be implanted and that implanted memories are probably the cause of most recovered memories.

So far, I haven't seen anything in this thread that has made me change my mind about any of that. Apparently some people claim that all recovered memories are implanted. It seems like only one clear cut example is necessary to rebut that claim. Do the people who are suggesting that not all recovered memories are implanted have a specific example that would prove that?

 

[Boo]

This was the first thing Google led me to:

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070205/full/070205-5.html


I used PTSD as part of my search because much of what is now being studied as far as repression and recovered memories are done to better understand the disorder. With PTSD the supression of a memory or the inability to supress a memory are key in the diagnosis and treatment.


I know when dealing with children it becomes even harder especially when they are under the age of 6. The mind is very elastic and the fact that they engage in magical thinking. "Reality" is a fluid concept for young children. In the absence of unmistakable physical evidence (traumatic injuries, body fluids, pics, etc) proof comes as information that has to be interpreted often by people not properly trained or familiar with the subject.

Jacque, my heart goes out to you and your family. I applaud your strength and willingness to discuss.



Boo

 

[Chris Haynes]

One simple question:

Where is the evidence that there were any tunnels?

 

[Kil]

ponderingturtle:
Are we talking about the supposed unconsious repressed memories, or a more active process? Why should any claim of the first be recognised given the comleate lack of credible cases documenting proven events?

What would you consider “credible cases”?

What do you mean by “a more active process” and does that lead to lost memories, or at least memories that are not available to their owner?

If you want me to cite studies, I will. No problem. But we should know what we are talking about here. It could be that in a strict Freudian sense, repression of the kind that he described does not happen. But it can be shown that memories of deeply traumatic events are partially or completely lost at somewhere around a 30% rate.

It’s come down to this. Usually when I talk about repression, I add “call it what you will”.

And once again, should we start a thread to discuss this? I keep feeling like I am taking and active part in hijacking this thread…

 

[jacque]

This was the first thing Google led me to:

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070205/full/070205-5.html


I used PTSD as part of my search because much of what is now being studied as far as repression and recovered memories are done to better understand the disorder. With PTSD the supression of a memory or the inability to supress a memory are key in the diagnosis and treatment.


I know when dealing with children it becomes even harder especially when they are under the age of 6. The mind is very elastic and the fact that they engage in magical thinking. "Reality" is a fluid concept for young children. In the absence of unmistakable physical evidence (traumatic injuries, body fluids, pics, etc) proof comes as information that has to be interpreted often by people not properly trained or familiar with the subject.

Jacque, my heart goes out to you and your family. I applaud your strength and willingness to discuss.



Boo

Thank you, Boo.
I cringe everytime I hear the case used as an example of a "witch hunt" or "mass hysteria."
The first place the term 'witch hunt' was used was by the McMartin's defense effort. They took out several full page ads in the local paper. in one ad they had, in 78 point font, SALEM MASS, 1784, MANHATTAN BEACH 1984. It was paid for by "Friends of the McMartins."
We laughed back then and said, "Yeah, and they are the witches!"
Little did we imagine in 1985 that ANYONE, much less almost everyone, would actually BELIEVE such a ludicrous idea.

First a disclaimer: I long ago formed an opinion that the McMartin school case probably did not involve any wrong doing by the McMartin school staff. I also, long ago, formed an opinion that memories of things that never happened could be implanted and that implanted memories are probably the cause of most recovered memories.

So far, I haven't seen anything in this thread that has made me change my mind about any of that. Apparently some people claim that all recovered memories are implanted. It seems like only one clear cut example is necessary to rebut that claim. Do the people who are suggesting that not all recovered memories are implanted have a specific example that would prove that?

Davefoc,
Long ago you formed this opinion...when was long ago? 1990?
Do you believe that ALL recovered memories are implanted? Sure, there are examples of recovered memories that were not implanted. The Elizabeth Franklin case is the first I can remember. This was the case where a young mother remembered that her father had murdered one of her playmates when she was very young. The thing that triggered her memory was watching her own child who was about that age. Her father was convicted.
Do you have a personal involvement in the case or this issue?

 

[jacque]

Sorry, that was the Eileen Franklin case.
The decision was overturned when Eileen admitted she had been hypnotized before she testified.
Can memories be implanted when a person is hypnotized? For how long?
http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/02/repressed.murder/
Loftus was the expert witness for the defense.

 

[davefoc]

Quick answer jacque because I'm leaving:

I had no personal involvement in the McMartin case. I followed it closely at the time.

I have held my views about the nature of memory and how false memories can be implanted so long that I don't remember exactly when I formed them. It is possible that the McMartin case was the event which got me to thinking about this subject.

 

[WildCat]

If you want me to cite studies, I will. No problem.

Please do.

But it can be shown that memories of deeply traumatic events are partially or completely lost at somewhere around a 30% rate.

So, say, 30% of the Army Rangers who survived the "Blackhawk Down" incident do not remember it?

It’s come down to this. Usually when I talk about repression, I add “call it what you will”.

Sounds like "fudge it as I go along" to me.

And once again, should we start a thread to discuss this? I keep feeling like I am taking and active part in hijacking this thread…

This seems critical to this thread IMHO.

 

[jacque]

f http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/Murphy_Memory_Article.html



Victims Law
Debunking 'false memory'
myths in sexual abuse cases
By Wendy J. Murphy

Introduction. For many years, adult survivors of child sexual abuse have been filing civil claims for damages. In some cases, plaintiffs file their claims decades after the abuse ends because the nature of the trauma renders them incapable of filing earlier.
These cases can be broken down into two categories. In "recovered memory" cases, victims had no memories of the abuse until years later. In "appreciation" cases, victims remembered being abused but did not appreciate the causal relationship between the childhood abuse and the psychological and emotional injuries they suffer as adults. This article addresses an issue that is likely to come up only in the former category of cases.
Recovered memory cases are facing new and substantial pre-trial hurdles, sometimes leading to dismissal orders and summary judgment decisions that deny victims their day in court. At the heart of the problem is the largely contrived controversy around "false memory syndrome" and the alleged unreliability of "repressed" memories.

 

[WildCat]

f http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/Murphy_Memory_Article.html

I'm really not interested in the opinions of a law firm jacque, nor do I want to delve into a hundred studies to find what I'm looking for.

Kil claims 30% of those in a traumatic event suffer memory loss, this should be easy to verify. Was the "Blackhawk Down" incident not sufficiently traumatic? I don't know of any survivors who don't remember it, and from what I've seen they remember it in great detail.

In the McMartin case, we're not even talking 30%. It's damn near 100% who have suffered not even a partial, but a 100% memory loss. I find this highly dubious, especially since so many of the claims are so incredible as to be near impossible.

 

[jacque]

Quick answer jacque because I'm leaving:

I had no personal involvement in the McMartin case. I followed it closely at the time.

I have held my views about the nature of memory and how false memories can be implanted so long that I don't remember exactly when I formed them. It is possible that the McMartin case was the event which got me to thinking about this subject.

Thank you for your honesty, Davefoc.

 

[ChristineR]

I'm really not interested in the opinions of a law firm jacque, nor do I want to delve into a hundred studies to find what I'm looking for.

Kil claims 30% of those in a traumatic event suffer memory loss, this should be easy to verify. Was the "Blackhawk Down" incident not sufficiently traumatic? I don't know of any survivors who don't remember it, and from what I've seen they remember it in great detail.

In the McMartin case, we're not even talking 30%. It's damn near 100% who have suffered not even a partial, but a 100% memory loss. I find this highly dubious, especially since so many of the claims are so incredible as to be near impossible.

There is no reason to believe that the 30% figure applies evenly across all sorts of trauma. First you have to define "trauma" which is a pretty nebulous thing. The studies you are not reading were based on fairly specific populations such as holocaust survivors and adults who were treated, when children, in a hospital for sexual assault.

 

[WildCat]

There is no reason to believe that the 30% figure applies evenly across all sorts of trauma. First you have to define "trauma" which is a pretty nebulous thing. The studies you are not reading were based on fairly specific populations such as holocaust survivors and adults who were treated, when children, in a hospital for sexual assault.

Most memories from early childhood disappear anyway, how many here can remember more than a tiny bit of what happened before age 5? I'm extremely skeptical of recovered memories from adults of what happened at age 3, 4, 5.

The children in the McMartin case weren't interviewed 20 years later, but immediately following. 4 year olds do remember what happened yesterday or last week.

I find it dubious that nearly 100% of the children had nearly 100% memory suppression.

What I'm looking for is verifiable instances of memory suppression - for example a child who had their mother killed before their eyes, and have no memory of it even though a reliable witness saw them witness it. This would be a case likely to convince me, not a recovered memory that has no corroborating witnesses.

 

[Kil]

Me:
If you want me to cite studies, I will.

WildCat:
No problem. Please do.

Here are four studies that we described and cited in the article Questioning the Validity of False Memory Syndrome.
.

Loftus, E. F., Polonsky, S., and Fullilove, M. T., 1994. “Memories of childhood sexual abuse: Remembering and repressing,” Psychology of Women Quarterly, 18, 67-84.

Elliot, D.M. 1997. “Traumatic Events: Prevalence and delayed recall in the general population,” Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 65, 811-820.

Williams, L. M. 1994. “Recall of childhood trauma: A prospective study of women’s memories of child sexual abuse,” Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 62, 1167-76.

Yehuda, R., Schmeidler, J., Siever, L.J., Binder-Brynes, K. and Elkin, A. 1997. “Individual differences in post traumatic stress disorder symptom profiles in Holocaust survivors in concentration camps or in hiding,” Journal of Tramatic Stress, 10, 453-463.

Plus this:

Recovered Memory Project n/d, “24 Publications concerning traumatic amnesia in Holocaust survivors,” not dated, http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Taubman_Center/Recovmem/other_pub.html

And there are a lot more studies out there that put the repression (or forgetting) somewhere in the 30% range.

Jacque just added a few others.

Me:
It’s come down to this. Usually when I talk about repression, I add “call it what you will”.

WildCat:
Sounds like "fudge it as I go along" to me.

Not at all. There are many possible mechanisms for forgetting a traumatic event and there are as many terms to describe them.
I think “repression” is a perfectly good word, but in the face of those who call it “forgetting about” or “cognitive gating” for example, I just add “call it what you will”. It’s not a fudge if we are talking about a memory lost to its owner.

Me:
And once again, should we start a thread to discuss this? I keep feeling like I am taking and active part in hijacking this thread…

WildCat:
This seems critical to this thread IMHO.

I suppose…

Oh, as for the Blackhawk down thing, not really the same as a child, being anally penetrated by her uncle, in the dark, and being threatened about telling… Those solders had support, which correlates well with the ability to remember. In other words, it’s not analogous to the kind of trauma were talking about here. And If I was too general in my description of severe trauma, I apologies.

 

[strathmeyer]

One simple question:

Where is the evidence that there were any tunnels?

http://www.magical-child.com/images/PacificPlayTunnel.jpg

 

[WildCat]

Here are four studies that we described and cited in the article Questioning the Validity of False Memory Syndrome.

Thanks. Most of those regarding Holocaust survivors remembered some of their experiences. There are very few who remembered nothing. Remember, in the McMartin case we're talking nearly 100% who remmebered absolutely nothing.

And there are a lot more studies out there that put the repression (or forgetting) somewhere in the 30% range.

Even if we accept that, it doesn't explain the extraordinary McMartin case.

I think “repression” is a perfectly good word, but in the face of those who call it “forgetting about” or “cognitive gating” for example, I just add “call it what you will”. It’s not a fudge if we are talking about a memory lost to its owner.

Sorry, i just didn't want to get into a "no true Scotsman" argument.

Oh, as for the Blackhawk down thing, not really the same as a child, being anally penetrated by her uncle, in the dark, and being threatened about telling…

But many children do remmber such things, in graphic detail. Why 100% repression in McMartin?

Those solders had support, which correlates well with the ability to remember. In other words, it’s not analogous to the kind of trauma were talking about here. And If I was too general in my description of severe trauma, I apologies.

It's exactly analogous to the allegations in the McMartin case, where the children were allegedly molested in groups.

And I think we all know how easy it is to "recover" memories of Gray space aliens anally probing their terrified captives, if you are skeptical of those claims you must also be skeptical when similar methods are used to extract memories of abuse by humans.

 

[ChristineR]

I don't agree Wildcat. Blackhawk Down involved adults who recovered in a mutually supportive environment. The McMartin group abuse (if it happened) involved children who if anything were supporting each other's suppression of the incident, not the other way around.

Although some of the claims in the McMartin case are implausible (to say the least) and must have involved some sort of fabrication you can't rule out the possibility that there were actual events that triggered the whole thing. Likewise memories of space aliens can often be related to actual events (traumatic or otherwise) that were used as a basis for the fabulation.

Betty and Barney Hill are a perfect example. They got lost and had a "lost time" episode and ended up nowhere near where they thought they were. Betty was traumatized enough to consult a psychiatrist, who hypnotized her and extracted the alien abduction narrative. The psychiatrist never once thought that there was an abduction, he was just trying to gain insight into why Betty was so disturbed by the incident, and apparently he did gain some insights.