McMartin preschool, ted gunderson, by requestI am sceptical about Ritual Abuse and nI

[jacque]

I don't even know where to start...
I am the parent of a child who attended the preschool and was diagnosed as having been sexually molested.
I am the parent who decided to hire an archaeologist to look for tunnels under the preschool building. Even though others have it for sale, I leaglly own that scientific report.
I am also the parent who let ted gunderson infiltrate our case.
Google me if you'd like, Jackie McGauley.
I'm not very computer saavy, I look at my fingers when I type and I have to use spell check on every post, so please be patient with me.
I hope this is the correct place to even start this thread.
Here's where I am coming from;
I never liked to use the term ritual abuse. It was coined by Dr Lawrence Pazder of Canada, author of the book Michelle Remembers and now deceased. The producer of the 20/20 shows about our case brought Larry and Michelle, staunch Catholics, to my house one afternoon in about 2004 to meet with parents. They insisted, from what they had heard, that our case was ritual abuse.
I am sure people involved in the case know more about it than I do and I wouldn't try to tell them what to think. I know some therapists who had some of our kids in therapy say the case was ritual abuse. Larry had a definition of the term which we have to accept since he made up the term in the first place. That is basicaly; Abuse combined with a systematic use of symbols, ceremonies, and machinations designed and orchestrated to attain malevolent effects"

So, for what it is, I put myself out here.
Any questions?
Jacque

 

[jacque]

I already screwed up

Oh, nooooooo-how can I fix the title of this thread????
I told you I can't type

 

[Terry]

edit -> go advanced. Or if it's too late, pm me what it is supposed to be and I can fix it.

 

[Mercutio]

As a parent, former daycare professional, and skeptic, I thank you for opening this thread. I am certain I will have specific questions, but I will first have to re-acquaint myself with the case.

 

[Luke T.]

I was one of the people who requested this topic. Thanks for starting it, Jackie.

So do you believe your child was molested by a satanic cult?

 

[Roadtoad]

I'm just posting here to keep up to date on this.

Jackie, don't sweat the small stuff. Just tell us what you have. We'll figure out the rest of it ourselves.

 

[LostAngeles]

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions since you said you were pretty busy over in the other thread, so I'll let you answer Luke's before I post mine, jacque.

 

[jacque]

I don't want to overwhelm you with questions since you said you were pretty busy over in the other thread, so I'll let you answer Luke's before I post mine, jacque.

Thanks! I anticipate having to go into my records sometimes to answer questions as accurately as possible, so forgive me if it takes a while.

I was one of the people who requested this topic. Thanks for starting it, Jackie.

So do you believe your child was molested by a satanic cult?

No, no one has convincewd me of that.

 

[LostAngeles]

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Jacque, I can change the title if you'd like. Just post what you want it to be.

The McMartin case was huge in SoCal. On the news constantly.

 

[Roadtoad]

One article regarding the case. I'm sure there's more.

 

[Roadtoad]

And, of course, there's this on Wikipedia...

An excavation undertaken in May 1990 claimed to reveal tunnels under the McMartin Preschool. [4] A relevant quote from the summation is written as follows: "If the stories of the children were bogus fantasies, there is no excuse for the tunnels discovered under the school. If there really were tunnels, there is no excuse for the glib dismissal of any and all of the complaints of the children and their parents." The archaeologist's claims were refuted in a 1995 article published by the Institute for Psychological Therapies. The study showed that the concrete slab floor was undisturbed except for a small patch where the sewer line was tapped into. Once the slab was removed, there was no sign of any materials to line or hold up any tunnels, and there was no way for the defendants to fill in any purported tunnels once the investigation began. The report concluded that any disturbed soil under the slab was from the sewer line, and from construction fill buried under the slab, before it was poured. Some dated fill material under the slab was from the year 1940.

 

[Kil]

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

False memory yes. Syndrome, I doubt it... This could get interesting.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Jackie,
There are so many questions, but I'll start with basic ones, and try to keep in line with the few that Luke has opened with.
If you don't believe in the ritual or satanic abuse idea, are you also saying you think this was FMS, or do you believe that abuse took place?
Do you still support the tunnel idea that you and Gunderson developed and promoted.
What are your feelings on Gunderson's credibility?

 

[Luke T.]

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Heh. I found that site, too. Lots of links to read at the bottom. Very interesting.

Other interesting links:

http://www.smwane.dk/content/view/123/30/ (Critical of the tunnel theory)

And a defender of Gunderson and the ritual satanic molestations: http://educate-yourself.org/tg/tgmcculloughdataintro2.shtml

For those who have taken the time to study the McMartin Preschool case, you know that the physical abuse and satanic rituals endured by those 450 odd preschoolers over a number of years did indeed occur, that the tunnels the kids swore were there-were indeed there, and that the prosecutors did their damndest to lose that case and to abort/prevent the admission of key evidence that would have led to a conviction of McMartin and Ray Buckey (and possibly to an investigation of the Illuminated elites who were their sponsors and were the abusers of those "supplied" children).

Yes, that's right. The Illuminati.

As is always the case, the Illuminati got out their disinfo/debunking teams and went to town, especially on Gunderson because of his former FBI status.

"To come to the point: Nathan's propaganda, repeated in the New York Times and a host of other corporate publications, happened to conceal a classified mind control operation the CIA and Pentagon had undertaken thirty years before.... "

We may end up in the Conspiracy Theory section of the forum.

 

[jacque]

Jacque, the case is regarded as one of the first recorded cases of False Memory Syndrome. I grew up in the Boston area so I'm much more acquainted with the Fells Acre case.

Do you think that there was any abuse at all at the McMartin preschool or was the information the children gave the result of leading questions, or was it something in between?

I might say something in between...
My child was interviewed by the therapist who was accused of doing the leading questioning. I asked to see her tape and took Dr Joel Norris with me to view it. Dr. Norris, as many people I met in those days, turned out to be a strange fellow. Anyway, she didn't say much in the interview.
Uhoh, here comes the place where I have to be careful with what I say. My daughter is 25 now and may well find this thread. I should use a pseudonym but I am already out there and it would seem silly to try that now. You'd figure me out.
She did used some very telling body language when a certain teacher's name was spoken. A protective motion.
I know there was abuse at the school. The physical examination for sexual abuse was positive. I was in the examining room.
We stayed at the school until it closed in January 1983.
I had not heard about the allegations except form Peggy McMartin Buckey, the daughter of Virginia McMartin who was the director of the school. Peggy was so obviously rattled by something at that time that she had to try to give some explanation.

False Memory Syndrome...did you follow the history of this group FMSF, False Memory Syndrome Foundation? They morphed from the group VOCAL (Victims of Child Abuser Legislation, just think a minute on that name) when their founders from the Jordan Min case which began a year before ours did an interview in Paedika Magazine, a magazine for pedophiles.
Bad enough, but I am mentioned liberally in their IPT Journal and other articles. I have NEVER spoken to even ONE of the people who writes about me, NOT ONE.
Did you read the APA ruling on False Memories? They ruled it does not exist as a diagnosis. Elizabeth Loftus is the therapist who champions it in court, usually for the defense. Check out the first place she is known for using FMS, the Ingrahm case in Washington State.
I met a mother form that case. Church of the Living Waters, and he ran an adoption agency, too.
Oh, during our trial the term False Memory Syndrome never was an issue, it hadn't been invented yet.

 

[jacque]

Tunnels & Gunderson, et al...

Jackie,

Apologies, but you'll recognize the source on the below, and from that you'll know my view of this.

To other forumites,
The below link should be background reading.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume7/j7_2_1.htm

Jackie,
There are so many questions, but I'll start with basic ones, and try to keep in line with the few that Luke has opened with.
If you don't believe in the ritual or satanic abuse idea, are you also saying you think this was FMS, or do you believe that abuse took place?
Do you still support the tunnel idea that you and Gunderson developed and promoted.
What are your feelings on Gunderson's credibility?

IPT is operated by the group FMSF, They are one in the same.
They are simply not a credible source, they started as and still are mostly apologists for child molesters.
But I don 't mind answering to their claims.
I am saying abuse did take place. I can't say from what I know that it was ritualistic or satanic. I can say it was sadistic.

Oh, please...this is important so read carefully...gunderson did not develop anything. He simply hung around, absconded information and went off giving lectures that he was "hired" by us and to this day he sells copies of documents he stole from me.
This gives me a headache, but I wish I knew a way to stop him. He is a con man and a crook. He takes money from little old ladies and vulnerable victims of crimes. Oh, and he is a liar.
He embezzled over $30,000 from my family which threw us into bankruptcy.

Whew, yes I support the findings of the archaeological team the parents and supporters hired. We went in there wanting to find answers. We wanted the truth about what happened there.
I own the (around) 200 page scientific report. I have distributed it for free and for cost at different times.
Many people have come forward to help but no one ever actually does. It has been too big a job for me alone.

 

[Kil]

A co founder of the FMSF she speaks of is Dr. Ralph Underwager. He left (or was asked to leave) the foundation soon after this interview.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW:
HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I

RALPH UNDERWAGER:
Paedophiles are too defensive. They go around saying, "You people out there are saying that what I choose is bad, that it's no good. You're putting me in prison, you're doing all these terrible things to me. I have to define my love as being in some way or other illicit." What I think is that paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness, they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will." They have the right to make these statements for themselves as personal choices. Now whether or not they can persuade other people they are right is another matter (laughs).

However, It could be that any discussion about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation should be held on another thread… I dunno.

 

[jacque]

A co founder of the FMSF she speaks of is Dr. Ralph Underwager. He left (or was asked to leave) the foundation soon after this interview.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW:
HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I


However, It could be that any discussion about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation should be held in another thread… I dunno.

There sure is enough about FMSF (IPT) to start a thread.
It was after they told Underwager to leave that they changed the name to FMSF after Elizabeth Loftus' discovery of "False Memories." She discovered the term as a result of her attempt to defend Paul Ingrahm, I believe she called it "coerced confession" first).
Underwager passed himself off an an expert witness (some called him a hired gun due to the huge sums of money he asked for his testimony)

Loftus is now under scrutiny for her poor ethics in a number of instances.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Jackie,

MY BAD!!!! I was googling back and forth between old links, to find a bulleted recap of some of the highs and lows of the case, and the ITP site had a lengthy list of articles (actually, most are well argued and written). I didn't recognize "IPT".... and didn't immediately recall IPT's beginnings, 'though I'd been aware of them a while ago. (A lot of this is old news... I haven't been through these reports and documents in years. I was looking for a link to a quick summary, and chose IPT..... SORRY!)

I'll see if I can find a less dubious link/source. Although IPT does document and footnote their articles, I'd be the first to question a CTer who linked to a dubious site as source material.

(I haven't researched IPT sufficiently to begin to comprehend their defence [or "allowance"] of paedophilia, but from what I've seen they seem to be trying to approach the issue cerebrally and objectively - something that I don't think is possible on such a topic, but which has a certain credibility in areas of this forum.... Areas that I stay clear of as I'm not in the "let's discuss this sensibly" camp....)

I should have been more careful. I have personal experience with someone who developed FMS, and I was too hurried.

To the forum as a whole: I repeat..... MY BAD! Sloppy work, to say the least. Kil's cite is accurate.

FMS and FMSF should not be confused, however.