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Changes To The Challenge

The requirement of media attention seems very sensible to me.

Anything that seems truly paranormal should no doubt get a lot of attention.

The requirement of endorsement by a person of authority, I'm not so sure about. What does this achieve that does not already follow from the media coverage requirement? Surely that will filter out almost all of the 'obviously deluded'. Additionally, some people with great media attention but no authorative backing might still cause a lot of harm. Then surely it would be a bad thing if the MDC rules hindered the JREF from going after them.
 
Merko said:
The requirement of media attention seems very sensible to me.

Anything that seems truly paranormal should no doubt get a lot of attention.

The requirement of endorsement by a person of authority, I'm not so sure about. What does this achieve that does not already follow from the media coverage requirement? Surely that will filter out almost all of the 'obviously deluded'. Additionally, some people with great media attention but no authorative backing might still cause a lot of harm. Then surely it would be a bad thing if the MDC rules hindered the JREF from going after them.
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I asked Randi this question at TAM...the new requirements are for applicants. The JREF can still "go after" and challenge directly whomever it wants, whether they've met the new criteria or not.
 
Yeah, there will now be two classes...

1) The Applicants.

To reduce the number of deluded and demented applicants, these require
- Media profile and
- Academic endorsement.

2) The Persued.

The only qualification will be that they are well known charlatans.
One or two per month will be named and actively persued by the JREF through the media.
 
Yeah.

Okay, so we can officially say: JREF Paranormal Challenge R.I.P. 1964-2007

Now, if some paranormal phenomenon indeed does exist, do you think it will surface through some famous and notorious healer/channeller/other fraud or a simple unknown individual with no commercial interests?

I would say the latter. On top of that, no famous healer, loser or other fraud would ever apply for the prize, so... effectively, this challenge is now non-existent. Normal people cannot apply, media-hungry frauds who can - won't.

Why test frauds in the first place? Why waste time on frauds? You're only giving them extra publicity. Why not try to seek read-deal candidates? I guess public discreditation of the fraudsters is a very important goal to JREF nowadays, much more so than testing for proof of the paranormal. Never mind that everyone's been discredited already, many times over. Successfully.
Not that it makes a difference to their die hard supporters.:D

Futile mission, say I.
 
Pinocchio said:
Okay, so we can officially say: JREF Paranormal Challenge R.I.P. 1964-2007

Now, if some paranormal phenomenon indeed does exist, do you think it will surface through some famous and notorious healer/channeller/other fraud or a simple unknown individual with no commercial interests?

I would say the latter. On top of that, no famous healer, loser or other fraud would ever apply for the prize, so... effectively, this challenge is now non-existent. Normal people cannot apply, media-hungry frauds who can - won't.

Why test frauds in the first place? Why waste time on frauds? You're only giving them extra publicity. Why not try to seek read-deal candidates? I guess public discreditation of the fraudsters is a very important goal to JREF nowadays, much more so than testing for proof of the paranormal. Never mind that everyone's been discredited already, many times over. Successfully.
Not that it makes a difference to their die hard supporters.:D

Futile mission, say I.
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Please give some names as examples for "read-deal candidates", Pinocchio.

"Normal" people still can apply for the JREF Challenge, after they made at least minor regional waves in the media. Or by coming up with academic support.
 
Sorry there. I meant 'real-deal'. You know, folks whose claims have some merit, and are capable and willing to go through the process. Are you saying there's no one capable of that out there? Prophet Yahweh or Sylvia Browne are not two of that kind.:D It would be a joke testing these two, along with 0 impact.
 
Pinocchio said:
Sorry there. I meant 'real-deal'. You know, folks whose claims have some merit, and are capable and willing to go through the process. Are you saying there's no one capable of that out there? Prophet Yahweh or Sylvia Browne are not two of that kind.:D It would be a joke testing these two, along with 0 impact.
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I understood you meant "real-deal". Who would qualify as such in your book?
 
I think he just means someone who really does believe they have paranormal powers (but is not hopelessly demented or obviously delusional), as opposed to someone who knows they do not have paranormal powers and is in it just to make money by defrauding people.
 
Pinocchio said:
Sorry there. I meant 'real-deal'. You know, folks whose claims have some merit, and are capable and willing to go through the process. Are you saying there's no one capable of that out there? Prophet Yahweh or Sylvia Browne are not two of that kind.:D It would be a joke testing these two, along with 0 impact.
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Pinocchio, you clearly do not understand the purpose of the challenge, or the mandate of the JREF. Since actual paranormal abilities do not exist, there are no "real-deal" candidates. There are only the deluded, and the fraudulent. The deluded have now been excluded, that leaves only the fraudulent to pursue - those who do the most harm.

The JREF has no interest in discovering, nor intention to investigate "real-deal" paranormal abilities. It's mandate is to educate the public about, and promote the furthering of critical thinking, so that fewer people are either taken in by the charlatans, or become deluded themselves.
 
BillyJoe said:
I think he just means someone who really does believe they have paranormal powers (but is not hopelessly demented or obviously delusional), as opposed to someone who knows they do not have paranormal powers and is in it just to make money by defrauding people.
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I was hoping the wooden one would come up with some names.
 
Gr8wight said:
Pinocchio, you clearly do not understand the purpose of the challenge.
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I'm not sure you do either...

Gr8wight said:
Since actual paranormal abilities do not exist...
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The Challenge ostensibly leaves open the possibility that paranormal abilities exist.

Gr8wight said:
...there are no "real-deal" candidates.
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Well, of course there are, otherwise why have a challenge at all. The rules regarding media exposure and academic endorsement are intended to exclude only the nutcases who cannot even state what they can do or whose claims are so outrageous that they are about the only ones who believe in them. That still leaves those who honestly believe they have a paranormal ability and whose claims are not so obviously impossible or ridiculous that they have been able to garner some coverage in the media and some support from academia.

Gr8wight said:
There are only the deluded, and the fraudulent.
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Well, there are three groups: the nutcases, the "real-deal" candidates, and the frauds.

Gr8wight said:
The deluded have now been excluded, that leaves only the fraudulent to pursue - those who do the most harm.
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The nutcases have been excluded by not being able to obtain sufficient media coverage and academic support. The frauds will not apply. This leaves the "real-deal" candidate as described above.

Gr8wight said:
The JREF has no interest in discovering, nor intention to investigate "real-deal" paranormal abilities. It's mandate is to educate the public about, and promote the furthering of critical thinking, so that fewer people are either taken in by the charlatans, or become deluded themselves.
Click to expand...
That may be so for the JREF itself, but the actual Challenge leaves open the possibility of the existence of paranormal abilities, but puts the onus on the claimant to show, under proper controlled conditions, that they can do what they say they can do.
 
GzuzKryzt said:
Please give some names as examples for "read-deal candidates", Pinocchio.
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Ditto. I can name recent candidates who fall into the "nutcase" and "fraudulent" categories. Can anyone give an example of a "real-deal" candidate?

GzuzKryzt said:
"Normal" people still can apply for the JREF Challenge, after they made at least minor regional waves in the media. Or by coming up with academic support.
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And if they can't meet the new requirements, people can still request preliminary testing through local skeptics groups.
 
Are there any real-deal possible candidates? I think many people have "border line" paranormal powers. By this I mean that at times they will briefly experience events or do things that just don't seem normally possible, thus it might be considered "paranormal". I've had a number of experiences where I really desperately needed a certain thing to happen; something that was not likely to happen. So I "psyched" myself into absolutely knowing that it would happen. And it did happen. Is this "paranormal"? I don't really know! I do know that I have no desire to "demonstrate" this ability that I've had since about age 7. To me that would be like a laboratory animal under a microscope. I have no desire for such an experience.

I could elaborate on this if any are interested.

Jim_Mich
 
Dumb All Over said:
I can name recent candidates who fall into the "nutcase" and "fraudulent" categories. Can anyone give an example of a "real-deal" candidate?
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Without saying that I endorse this definition, it has been made clear that it denotes people with claims that have some merit (i.e. considered paranormal by JREF), that are both capable of taking the test (i.e. are not "nutcases") and willing to take the test (i.e. not "fraudulent"). Obviously, any person that has been tested matches this definition. Examples would be Carina Landin or Angela Patel or, according to Randi's FAQ, "a couple hundred" others.[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]
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Some here are losing sight of the real purpose of the Challenge. As has been noted before on this Forum, the ultimate purpose of the Challenge is not to find someone with paranormal abilities; rather, the Challenge is a publicity tool. It garners media attention for the Foundation and its mission, and reminds the public that if someone truly did have psychic abilities they could, as Randi often states, win the Challenge quickly and easily. That no one has yet won the Challenge, and that notable paranormalist run for the hills when confronted, can be used to make a forceful case that paranormal abilities have yet to be proven. Hopefully, the new Challenge format will be an even more effective tool than was the old format. We shall see.

It should be noted that, although the primary purpose of the Challenge is publicity, it is still a genuine challenge to anyone who claims paranormal abilities, and the fact that some of us skeptics may not ever expect the Challenge to be "won" should not diminish its legitimacy.
 
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