Questions for 9/11 Truthers

[MortFurd]

RE R. Mackey: Nominated! Bookmarked! Fekkin etched in titanium and worn as "The One Ring"!

Seconded.

 

[Horatius]

RE R. Mackey: Nominated! Bookmarked! Fekkin etched in titanium and worn as "The One Ring"!

Yep. Once again, R.Mackey says it all much better than I did.

 

[A-Train]

Consequence: There is no record of gunfire on the recovered Cockpit Voice Recorders.

I'm not following you here. Are you stating as fact that there is no record of gunfire on the recovered CVRs, which would be from FL93 & FL77? What are you basing that on? The CVR from FL93 has only been played for a few members of the victims' families, some of whom suspected it had been tampered with. [Terror Timeline 10:02 AM] The CVR from FL77 has never been released. Are you assuming that if evidence of a gun was on this CVR, someone would have told you about it?

Back to A-Train, if you can figure out how to explain your theory without bringing the whole FBI, FAA, NTSB, and the nation of Israel into it, then please do. But if you can't, then I'm afraid your hypothesis isn't worth a thing.

I am completely on board here. You will never hear me hypothesize anything that requires the large scale involvement of any US government agency-- nor even "the nation of Israel" for that matter. There are too many honest, patriotic people working in the government for that to succeed. I know that, because I am one of them.

However, while federal agents and soldiers may be patriotic, the reality is that they work for very hierarchical organizations where orders are followed often without question. Those who have a habit of questioning orders and acting on their own find themselves at the bottom of the totem pole.

With respect to the CVRs, I would say that whoever recovered them was ordered to hand them over immediately to the authorities in Washington D.C., obviously without listening to them first. What percentage of agents of the FBI, FAA and NTSB actually listened to the CVRs? Want to speculate? While I believe most of these folks are patriotic and loyal, I would not assume the same about our friend Michael Chertoff, a dual US-Israeli citizen who directed the investigation of 9/11 from his desk at the Justice Department. It would have been Chertoff who decided who handled the black boxes, and I'm sure he only assigned that privilege to a very small number of "trusted" associates.

 

[Horatius]

I'm not following you here. Are you stating as fact that there is no record of gunfire on the recovered CVRs, which would be from FL93 & FL77? What are you basing that on? The CVR from FL93 has only been played for a few members of the victims' families, some of whom suspected it had been tampered with. [Terror Timeline 10:02 AM] The CVR from FL77 has never been released. Are you assuming that if evidence of a gun was on this CVR, someone would have told you about it?

Check out:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/local_links.php?action=jump&id=98&catid=18

and search on "CVR"

82. See Jere Longman, Among the Heroes—United Flight 93 and the Passengers and CrewWho Fought Back (Harper-Collins, 2002), p. 107; Deena Burnett interview (Apr. 26, 2004); FBI reports of investigation, interviews of recipients of calls from Jeremy Glick, Sept. 11, 2001, through Sept. 12, 2001; Lyzbeth Glick interview (Apr. 22, 2004). Experts told us that a gunshot would definitely be audible on the CVR.The FBI found no evidence of a firearm at the crash site of Flight 93. See FBI response to Commission briefing request no. 6, undated (topic 11).The FBI collected 14 knives or portions of knives at the Flight 93 crash site. FBI report,“Knives Found at the UA Flight 93 Crash Site,” undated.

With respect to the CVRs, I would say that whoever recovered them was ordered to hand them over immediately to the authorities in Washington D.C., obviously without listening to them first. What percentage of agents of the FBI, FAA and NTSB actually listened to the CVRs? Want to speculate? While I believe most of these folks are patriotic and loyal, I would not assume the same about our friend Michael Chertoff, a dual US-Israeli citizen who directed the investigation of 9/11 from his desk at the Justice Department. It would have been Chertoff who decided who handled the black boxes, and I'm sure he only assigned that privilege to a very small number of "trusted" associates.

And after all R.Mackey's hard work, here you go again, snowballing the assumptions. Why don't yo try investigating how the CVRs were actually handled, rather than just assuming things?

 

[volatile]

I don't get it. They might have had a gun. So what?

People have smuggled all kinds of things - bombs, knives, guns - onto planes, before 911 and since:

From 2000 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,400231,00.html

"In October security at Stanstead airport in Essex was criticised when it emerged that government inspectors smuggled a gun and a fake bomb past security checks."

See also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/954183.stm


From 2005 - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4146985.stm

"An Israeli man forgot he was carrying a loaded pistol in his hand luggage when he flew into Britain for a holiday, a court has heard. Benjamin Lehman, 48, from the West Bank, managed to pass security checks at Tel Aviv and Heathrow without the weapon being discovered."



There's no need for a huge conspiracy even if guns were on board. Security screeners make mistakes sometimes.

 

[A-Train]

"You theory requires them to be withholding the CVRs because the evidence on them would prove that guns were used, rather than them being withheld out of respect for the families of those who were recorded on the CVRs." -Horatius

The only recovered CVR that is being withheld completely is the one from AAL77. It is not being withheld out of respect for the families of those who were recorded on the CVR, because none of the victims were recorded on that CVR. There is no excuse for the government not to release this information.

"If the CVRs were withheld for the reasons you seem to suggest, it inevitably follows that some elements of the FBI and NTSB are knowingly particpating in a coverup. And it would have to be large elements - anyone in the investigations who would normally have access to such things, which I expect would be a large number. It would also start to encompass everyone involved in the 9/11 Commission report, who acted to cover-up this cover-up." -Horatius

No, you're wrong. It would not have to be a large number at all. It could be very small. As for the 9/11 Commission people, they were probably told the CVR contained nothing of interest, and they accepted that unquestioningly.

It should be noted that it is possible that some federal agents may have heard the CVRs and heard the presumptive evidence of a gunshot. However, like many on this board, they may have sincerely assumed that the gunshot came from an al-Qaeda terrorist. They therefore do not consider themselves to be participating in a true coverup, since the evidence they are concealing doesn't make much of a difference in the overall picture. This is how coverups often are carried out by honest, patriotic officials who are only following orders and who do not understand the overall implications of the details they are withholding from the public.

"So now we're back to large portions of the US government being involved in the attacks - which doesn't seem that different from what other CTists have claimed."

No, we're not. There was no large scale involvement of the US government or military in the 9/11 attacks.

 

[stateofgrace]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4904600.stm

Then why did they not use the gun to suppress the passengers fight back?

Why if they had a gun did they not shoot the first passengers that charged up to the cockpit?

They were in an enclosed area; it would have been easy to suppress any counter attack by simply shooting the first people that made any move.

Why did the pilot roll the plane violently to try and suppress the attack?

They had a gun, why not just open up, suppress the attack and carry on with the plan?

 

[MikeW]

The only recovered CVR that is being withheld completely is the one from AAL77. It is not being withheld out of respect for the families of those who were recorded on the CVR, because none of the victims were recorded on that CVR. There is no excuse for the government not to release this information.

It's not being "withheld". It was damaged by the impact & fire & no data could be recovered. Or at least, that's what has been reported: if you're going to attack something, it might as well be the account that's being put forward.

 

[Horatius]

The only recovered CVR that is being withheld completely is the one from AAL77. It is not being withheld out of respect for the families of those who were recorded on the CVR, because none of the victims were recorded on that CVR. There is no excuse for the government not to release this information.

"None" except for the pilots who had their throats cut (or were "shot").

And how often are CVR recordings completely released, even in regular air crashes?

As for no excuse, it's standard procedure not to publish information that may be used as evidence in a criminal trial, so as to avoid biasing potential jurors. Even if you don't believe the official story, you must believe there are still some perps out there who have yet to be put on trial for their actions, right? So why would you want to potentially screw up those trials?

No, you're wrong. It would not have to be a large number at all. It could be very small. As for the 9/11 Commission people, they were probably told the CVR contained nothing of interest, and they accepted that unquestioningly.
...
No, we're not. There was no large scale involvement of the US government or military in the 9/11 attacks.

And here we're back to pure speculation. Why don't you try finding out exactly how many people were involved in dealing with the CVRs? At least then, we'd be disagreeing about actual numbers, rather than made up ones.

 

[Horatius]

It's not being "withheld". It was damaged by the impact & fire & no data could be recovered. Or at least, that's what has been reported: if you're going to attack something, it might as well be the account that's being put forward.

Or what he said

 

[R.Mackey]

I'm not following you here. Are you stating as fact that there is no record of gunfire on the recovered CVRs, which would be from FL93 & FL77? What are you basing that on? The CVR from FL93 has only been played for a few members of the victims' families, some of whom suspected it had been tampered with. [Terror Timeline 10:02 AM] The CVR from FL77 has never been released. Are you assuming that if evidence of a gun was on this CVR, someone would have told you about it?

Correct. At this stage of your theory's Inflation, we have to assume, like I said above, the CVRs were "suppressed or altered."

Again, it is not physically impossible that everyone who heard the CVRs, everyone on the investigation, and everyone who would normally have examined the CVRs but was mysteriously prevented is keeping their mouths shut, not mentioning the presence of BANGs, the ring of ejected .45 brass, and pilots suddenly going silent (or crying out) on the recordings. But you have no support for this, this means the whole thing has grown vastly compared to your initial hypothesis, and the Official Theory doesn't suffer from this problem.

If you can't admit that the Official Theory is superior to yours at this point, you are not being honest. Without new evidence that presents similar problems to the Official Theory, evidence that you have not supplied, your hypothesis is now left in the dust.

Release of the full CVRs is not necessary to make this comparison. If it was, I agree it would present us with new facts, and we would go through this process again. But your theory requires things to be true that we simply don't know. Exceptional things. That is an undeniable flaw.

With respect to the CVRs, I would say that whoever recovered them was ordered to hand them over immediately to the authorities in Washington D.C., obviously without listening to them first. What percentage of agents of the FBI, FAA and NTSB actually listened to the CVRs? Want to speculate?

Absolutely not. No speculation is required. We already have a workable theory for which the number of tricksters within the FBI, FAA, etc. is zero. This beats your theory, period.

While I believe most of these folks are patriotic and loyal, I would not assume the same about our friend Michael Chertoff, a dual US-Israeli citizen who directed the investigation of 9/11 from his desk at the Justice Department. It would have been Chertoff who decided who handled the black boxes, and I'm sure he only assigned that privilege to a very small number of "trusted" associates.

Now that's just rude. Once again, your theory has inflated, for no reason other than to make excuses.

Stop speculating and go find some evidence. I find your willingness to smear anyone with any connection to Israel extremely disturbing.

 

[A-Train]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4904600.stm

Then why did they not use the gun to suppress the passengers fight back?

Why if they had a gun did they not shoot the first passengers that charged up to the cockpit?

They were in an enclosed area; it would have been easy to suppress any counter attack by simply shooting the first people that made any move.

Why did the pilot roll the plane violently to try and suppress the attack?

They had a gun, why not just open up, suppress the attack and carry on with the plan?

I agree with everything you're saying here. I believe the gun(s) were included, not only to kill the pilots quickly, but as a preventative against a mass passenger attack. In such an event, the passengers would have been mowed down with the gun. Using knives for that purpose would have been a bloody mess, even for trained professionals.

I believe that passengers on UAL93 were planning an attack from the back of the plane where they had all been herded. I believe they commenced that attack at about 9:58 or so. We know this from the phone call evidence which I consider to be credible.

I do not believe they ever made it to the cockpit. I believe they would have encountered poisonous gas in the middle of the plane which was put there to act as a barrier. This is the "mace or something" referred to in Betty Ong's recorded call. I don't believe there was ever a struggle for the cockpit. The only evidence we have of that is the CVR from UAL93, which I, like several members of the victims' families, believe had been tampered with.

You may vehemently disagree with this assessment. But you will have to concede that the only evidence we have of an actual struggle for the cockpit comes from the CVR. There is no other corroborating evidence.

 

[Firestone]

You assume things about the CVR's you haven't heard, and claim that the CVR's that you have heard were tampered with because you don't like what you heard.

All without any evidence

Still underwhelmed ...

 

[Matthew Best]

But you will have to concede that the only evidence we have of an actual struggle for the cockpit comes from the CVR. There is no other corroborating evidence.

What about the plane crashing in the middle of nowhere? Isn't that corroborating evidence?

 

[aggle-rithm]

It isn't making sense because you're oversimplifying my argument and jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. My original contention was that the plot was far more sophisticated than anything a Gulf Arab group like al-Qaeda is capable of. One piece of evidence in favor of that is that the hijackers had guns, pointing to a larger conspiracy with connections in the airport security apparatus. That should have have lead to an extensive investigation of ICTS (International Consultants for Targeted Security), a foreign firm that provided security services for all three airports involved, and is the owner of the Huntleigh firm that controlled security at Logan. The owner of ICTS at the time was Menachem Atzmon, a Likud party member who was convicted of fraud in Israel in 1996.

Besides the guns, there's plenty of other evidence pointing to a sophisticated conspiracy beyond the means of al-Qaeda.

Let me see if I understand you correctly: ASSUMING there were guns on board, and ASSUMING that getting guns on board required some sort of collusion with airport security, and ASSUMING that arranging such collusion was beyond the means of al Qaeda, and ASSUMING that if al Qaeda was not behind it, then it had to be the Isrealis...

Assumptions built on assumptions built on assumptions. See the problem? If even one of these assumptions is wrong, then your whole argument falls apart.

 

[stateofgrace]

I agree with everything you're saying here. I believe the gun(s) were included, not only to kill the pilots quickly, but as a preventative against a mass passenger attack. In such an event, the passengers would have been mowed down with the gun. Using knives for that purpose would have been a bloody mess, even for trained professionals.

I am not agreeing with you I asking you a series of questions based on your claims. You have failed to answer them, so I will ask again.
If,as you claim this highly trained professional Israeli suicide squad had guns,why did they not use them to suppress the attack?
Why did the pilot roll the plane violently to suppress it?

I do not believe they ever made it to the cockpit. I believe they would have encountered poisonous gas in the middle of the plane which was put there to act as a barrier. This is the "mace or something" referred to in Betty Ong's recorded call. I don't believe there was ever a struggle for the cockpit. The only evidence we have of that is the CVR from UAL93, which I, like several members of the victims' families, believe had been tampered with.

So why did the plane crash ?

You may vehemently disagree with this assessment. But you will have to concede that the only evidence we have of an actual struggle for the cockpit comes from the CVR. There is no other corroborating evidence.

Apart from the fact that a plane that was under the complete control of highly trained professionals armed with guns crashed.

So why did it crash?

 

[aggle-rithm]

What about the plane crashing in the middle of nowhere? Isn't that corroborating evidence?

Yes, A-Frame, if the passengers were never a threat, then why did the hijackers cut their mission short and crash into a field? They risked losing their shot at Paradise and 72 virgins for...what, exactly?

Oh, that's right. You think they were Israelis.

In that case, it makes perfect sense that they would rather crash into an empty field than complete the mission they'd spent years preparing for...

 

[aggle-rithm]

I am not agreeing with you I asking you a series of questions based on your claims. You have failed to answer them, so I will ask again.
If,as you claim this highly trained professional Israeli suicide squad had guns,why did they not use them to suppress the attack?
Why did the pilot roll the plane violently to suppress it?


So why did the plane crash ?

Apart from the fact that a plane that was under the complete control of highly trained professionals armed with guns crashed.

So why did it crash?

I have a feeling the list of assumptions necessary to hold his "theory" together is about to grow longer.

 

[A-Train]

It's not being "withheld". It was damaged by the impact & fire & no data could be recovered. Or at least, that's what has been reported: if you're going to attack something, it might as well be the account that's being put forward.

Good for you, Mike. I detect a whiff of doubt that three out of the four black boxes were damaged beyond repair. If so, you deserve your title of "critical thinker."

The black boxes are specifically designed to survive just about anything. The Pentagon crash doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary to have so damaged the black boxes. And yet we're told the only CVR to have survived is one that tells us a heartwarming story of American heroes fighting back against the Arabs, one of whom yells "Allah o Akbar!"

 

[twinstead]

What about the plane crashing in the middle of nowhere? Isn't that corroborating evidence?

Plus, we have eye witness accounts from those on the plane that an attempt on the cockpit was planned. Of course it's not proof it occurred, but it does corroborate when added to the CVR and the fact the plane did indeed crash.

That most certainly is more evidence than Israelis with guns.