The Marijuana Thread

[Luke T.]

I'm skipping over a lot of pages. Back on page 2:

Oh, gosh. I'll try.

And I'm rather flattered you remembered.

http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/Library/mjgate.htm

http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html

also, one thing to think about in debunking this myth:

A person who is willing to smoke marijuana is already likely to try drugs.
If the "gateway" theory is in any way sound, then what was the gateway for the initial choice to use marijuana?

And then there's this:

The idea that smoking cannabis increases the user's chance of going on to take harder drugs such as heroin is highly contentious. Some dub cannabis a “gateway” drug, arguing that peer pressure and exposure to drug dealers will tempt users to escalate their drug use. Others insist that smoking cannabis is unrelated to further drug use.

Now research in rats suggests that using marijuana reduces future sensitivity to opioids, which makes people more vulnerable to heroin addiction later in life. It does so by altering the brain chemistry of marijuana users, say the researchers.

“Adolescents in particular should never take cannabis – it’s far too risky because the brain areas essential for behaviour and cognitive functioning are still developing and are very sensitive to drug exposure,” says Jasmin Hurd, who led the study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden.

Link.

Nevertheless, I am all for the legalization of MJ. Especially medical MJ.

It seems the height of stupidity that someone who is prescribed MJ for medicinal purposes must either grow their own or buy them on the street.

To understand just how mind-bogglingly stupid that is, imagine telling a diabetic they must raise their own sheep and harvest their insulin from the sheep themselves.

As for why I favor legalizing pot, I have a very simple reason. So simple, that I was blind to it for most of my life. Here it is: MJ is less addictive than alcohol. And probably does less physical damage to the user than alcohol does.

It's as simple as that.

Cocaine, heroine, crack; way too addictive and way too physically damaging.

 

[Luke T.]

About halfway down this link is the Henningfield rating chart for Heroin, Alcohol, Cocaine, Nicotine, Marijuana, and Caffeine. He rates them by Withdrawal, Reinforcement, Tolerance, Dependence, and Intoxication.

As you can see, Alcohol beats MJ in all categories by a substantial margin.

Dr. Henningfield is an Associate Professor of Behavioral Biology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.

ETA: You'll notice that nicotine is ranked number one for dependence. And don't I know it!

 

[steverino]

MJ is less addictive than alcohol. And probably does less physical damage to the user than alcohol does.

Yes, MJ is less addictive than alcohol- to an alcoholic. Although, an alcoholic would be predisposed to issues regarding "using" any drug.

LSD is not addictive. Where would LSD fall in your "severity-to-mild scale" of drugs?

I think we are talking about recreational MJ here, not medical MJ legalization.

I'm wincing because "less physical damage" still sounds bad to me.

The argument has to be "We all accept that MJ is damaging, and may be very damaging to some, so either it should be up to us what to take into our bodies, or up to the law to prevent a health crisis.

Just my POV.

 

[jimlintott]

Yes, MJ is less addictive than alcohol- to an alcoholic. Although, an alcoholic would be predisposed to issues regarding "using" any drug.

LSD is not addictive. Where would LSD fall in your "severity-to-mild scale" of drugs?

This is entirely anecdotal and I've never done heroin but I would place LSD at the bottom of each category (below weed) except for intoxication which would easily be a two or possibly a one.

I'm wincing because "less physical damage" still sounds bad to me.

The argument has to be "We all accept that MJ is damaging, and may be very damaging to some, so either it should be up to us what to take into our bodies, or up to the law to prevent a health crisis.

Just my POV.

But in the case of our two nations, Canada and the U.S., we highly value our personal freedoms. If anything that might cause physical harm or even some things that do, were outlawed, only outlaws would have fun (sorry couldn't resist). My point is that almost everything we do is bad for our health. Over exercising can be bad for your health. Over doing almost anything is bad but we let people over do things unless they start to harm others.

I am very staunchly anti-gambling but you'd never see me trying to get casinos shut down because I believe people have the right to chose to be in there if they want. My only option is to educate them. If they know the dangers and still chose it then I say, isn't it great to live in a free country.

 

[steverino]

This is entirely anecdotal.

So you say LSD is addictive? I don't get it.

 

[jimlintott]

So you say LSD is addictive? I don't get it.

No, my statement about where it belongs on those lists is anecdotal.

Not what you said.

 

[steverino]

No, my statement about where it belongs on those lists is anecdotal.

Not what you said.

Thanks for clarifying. Now I see.

 

[Skibum]

Alcohol ABUSE, I think you mean. Brain cells killed and nerve damage done by light-to-moderate drinking is quite negligible.

You seem very adamant to make a clear distinction between alcohol ABUSE and moderate use, yet seem to not realize the same distinction can be made for marijuana use.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

But in the case of our two nations, Canada and the U.S., we highly value our personal freedoms. If anything that might cause physical harm or even some things that do, were outlawed, only outlaws would have fun (sorry couldn't resist). My point is that almost everything we do is bad for our health. Over exercising can be bad for your health. Over doing almost anything is bad but we let people over do things unless they start to harm others.

I am very staunchly anti-gambling but you'd never see me trying to get casinos shut down because I believe people have the right to chose to be in there if they want. My only option is to educate them. If they know the dangers and still chose it then I say, isn't it great to live in a free country.

Very well said.

 

[bigred]

And tobacco?

You can smoke tobacco and still drive a car.

But in your nation, alcohol was specifically legalized, because it was shown that prohibition did not work. Now you are facing a similar situation with other drugs.

This is not at all similar.

Appeals to history don't favor the prohibitionists...

Are you calling me a prohibitionist?? You better take that back!

Well, even if that where true, that's not an argument against legalization.

Absolutely not, wasn't implying that at all. Just a pet peeve I guess.

I also don't think that your generalizations generally true , you have a whole range of people supporting legalization, including those who smoke dope, those edging towards (or at) the libertarian end of the political spectrum, those that want drug enforcement focused on the more socially destructive drugs (it was actually the latter of these which lead to the almost, sort of- but the gov won't really admit it, de facto decriminalization of cannabis in this country).

Yes you have those others in there, but the former is by far the vast majority, don't you think?

 

[bigred]

About halfway down this link is the Henningfield rating chart for Heroin, Alcohol, Cocaine, Nicotine, Marijuana, and Caffeine. He rates them by Withdrawal, Reinforcement, Tolerance, Dependence, and Intoxication.

As you can see, Alcohol beats MJ in all categories by a substantial margin.!

...in his opinion. People talk about me providing evidence, yet there is none here either. Yes I see he's a PhD, etc and so on, all very impressive, and not to say any of his ratings are wrong per se....but I see nothing backing this up.


ETA: You'll notice that nicotine is ranked number one for dependence. And don't I know it![/QUOTE]
Nicotine is more addictive than heroin? Excuse me while I whip out the coaches' challenge flag.

In fact a little digging shows Doc H appears to have a serious ax to grind with nicotine. Not that that's bad mind ya, but I question how his bias may have come into play here...

 

[bigred]

You seem very adamant to make a clear distinction between alcohol ABUSE and moderate use, yet seem to not realize the same distinction can be made for marijuana use.

First I made the distinction because unfair comparisons/generalizations kept being made, ie how alcohol is so much worse than pot....but this is the case w/alcohol to great excess, not alcohol in general.

Second, it is not the same. Even light use of pot can (for example) seriously impair one's awareness, reaction times etc.....and is still unhealthy. Not so w/alcohol.

 

[bigred]

This is entirely anecdotal and I've never done heroin but I would place LSD at the bottom of each category (below weed) except for intoxication which would easily be a two or possibly a one.





But in the case of our two nations, Canada and the U.S., we highly value our personal freedoms. If anything that might cause physical harm or even some things that do, were outlawed, only outlaws would have fun (sorry couldn't resist). My point is that almost everything we do is bad for our health. Over exercising can be bad for your health. Over doing almost anything is bad but we let people over do things unless they start to harm others.

I am very staunchly anti-gambling but you'd never see me trying to get casinos shut down because I believe people have the right to chose to be in there if they want. My only option is to educate them. If they know the dangers and still chose it then I say, isn't it great to live in a free country.

Like a few others, you seem to think that someone smoking pot only endangers themselves. Not so.

Admit it, you just want to see NASCAR drivers drive stoned. Then you'd get all those accidents that you secretly want

 

[slingblade]

It is hardly a revelation that people who use one of the least popular drugs are likely to use the more popular ones -- not only marijuana, but also alcohol and tobacco cigarettes. The obvious statistic not publicized by CASA is that most marijuana users -- 83 percent -- never use cocaine. Indeed, for the nearly 70 million Americans who have tried marijuana, it is clearly a "terminus" rather than a "gateway" drug.

Bolding mine.

YES, I know that's one piece of evidence.

YES, I know the source is biased in favor of.

YES, I am aware this proves very little, being only one bit of evidence.

But it IS evidence, Red, and is a crapload more than you have provided so far.


So.

 

[bigred]

er frankly evidence which you provide no source for is not exactly what I would call authoritative.

 

[steverino]

BIGRED, Question:

Are you for or against legalizing marijuana? I am reading your posts and cannot wrap my mind around your point of view on this single question.

 

[Skibum]

First I made the distinction because unfair comparisons/generalizations kept being made, ie how alcohol is so much worse than pot....but this is the case w/alcohol to great excess, not alcohol in general.

Second, it is not the same. Even light use of pot can (for example) seriously impair one's awareness, reaction times etc.....and is still unhealthy. Not so w/alcohol.

Huh?

Lets see....

Seems to be a little disagreement with what you claim.

Alcohol consumption has acute effects on the body and causes a number of marked changes in behavior. Even low doses significantly impair the judgment and coordination required to drive a car safely, increasing the likelihood that the driver will be involved in an accident. Low to moderate doses of alcohol also increase the incidence of a variety of aggressive acts, including spouse and child abuse, as well as dangerous risk-taking behavior.
http://www.hartwick.edu/x3472.xml

It may surprise you to learn that you don't need to drink much alcohol before your ability to drive becomes impaired. For example, certain driving skills--such as steering a car while, at the same time, responding to changes in traffic--can be impaired by blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) as low as 0.02 percent. (The BAC refers to the amount of alcohol in the blood.) A 160-pound man will have a BAC of about 0.04 percent 1 hour after consuming two 12-ounce beers or two other standard drinks on an empty stomach (see the box, "What Is a Drink?"). And the more alcohol you consume, the more impaired your driving skills will be. Although most States set the BAC limit for adults who drive after drinking at 0.08 to 0.10 percent, impairment of driving skills begins at much lower levels.
http://ncadi.samhsa.gov/govpubs/ph326X/

I think you need to educate yourself about alcohol before you start throwing out the "but this is the case w/alcohol to great excess, not alcohol in general" and "not so w/alcohol" BS.

 

[Skibum]

Like a few others, you seem to think that someone smoking pot only endangers themselves. Not so.

Just like with alcohol, its all about how/where its used and what you do after you consume it.

If someone wants to relax at home by taking a toke or two who else would they be endangering?

Lets say pot were legal and someone went to a pot bar and caught a buzz and then took a cab home who else are they endangering?

I think you've watched Reefer Madness one too many times.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Second, it is not the same. Even light use of pot can (for example) seriously impair one's awareness, reaction times etc.....and is still unhealthy. Not so w/alcohol.

But who has, at any point, said that legalizing recreational use would mean driving under the influence would be legal? Technically speaking, most if not all laws regarding DUI include things as simple as OTC allergy medication. If you are impaired, you are impaired.

According to a Rutgers study on impairment, 1300 fatal crashes are caused by drowsy drivers annually. According to UW Seattle, residents who were sleep deprived due to their rotation schedules were as impaired as someone with a .04 to .06 blood alc.

Hey, I think people who drive drunk, stoned, tired and while jabbering on their phones should be beaten with something considerably more sturdy than a wiffle bat. Repeatedly. The issue of impairment has no real bearing on the legal status of MJ, with the exception of being able to determine an appropriate way to judge impairment for drivers (besides the fact they were driving 20 in a 70 zone)

Same goes for doing it on the job, et cetera. Why would it be treated differently? That's silly.

 

[steverino]

If someone wants to relax at home by taking a toke or two who else would they be endangering?

(emphasis mine)

Interesting choice of words. So you admit that smoking pot does indeed endanger the smoker.