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Hobbits are not microcephalics

Carl has a post up at his blog as well:

http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2007/01/29/on_my_fossil_wish_list_homo_su.php

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If general shape of the brain was enough to class human and not human, then what was that group of strange homonids that lived in the americas?

You know the ones commonly thought to be the result of head binding?
 
There are also postcranial osteological features that suggest it is not simply a dwarf Homo sapiens. See the abstract of the up-coming 2007 American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting (available free as a pdf on their site) for all sorts of information on these guys.
 
Is it not possible it started as dwarfism, and maybe dwarfs primarily breeding with other dwarfs, caused a split in human development? What are the genetic results on this?
 
No genetic data and no evidence for this.
The Flores hominids look a LOT like the Dmanisi hominids which are themselves phylogenetically intermediate between Homo habilis and Homo erectus/ergaster. Some models propose a complex of migrations first out of Africa, then back out of Asia, before a final out-of-Africa wave of H. sapiens. If this is accurate, then the Flores hominids might be relics of the initial, small-bodied hominin wave, like the Dmanisi hominids.
 
Would be a very cool find if it turns out to be true! So...would that mean there were two intelligent species on the planet? :D
 
Would be a very cool find if it turns out to be true! So...would that mean there were two intelligent species on the planet? :D

Define inteligent. It is also possible that the tools are not made by the supposed homonids but by humans.

Also concider Neanderthals who had a larger brain than humans.
 
Thanks Desertyeti and Level-- Zimmer is great. Yes, I'd heard they did multiple measurements... I've read Robert Martin's contrary account in nature, and it just sounded so unlikely. He made it sound as if it was more likely that we'd find a severely handicapped human for the time period than a species (or sub species of human--depending where you want to draw the line) that had been previously unidentified. Especially when we are finding a treasure trove of previously unidentified mammals in Australian caves, and all sorts of wild life forms previously unheard of in the depths of our oceans. There is other evidence as well...the tiny foot prints and the fire pits...etc. Apparently, there has been a big deal about these remains in the anthropology community--but from a genetic stand point, it just seems sooo unlikely that a deformed creature would survive to adulthood, much less that we'd run across it's remains as opposed to it's more normal kin. Now that we can go back in the cave, I bet we can get some DNA from the little people. And these folks were alive very recently...overlapping in time with humans and Neandertals.

DNA could tell us when and where are most recent common ancestor with them was... I agree with Carl Zimmer; this is way cool. And I am eager to see the new pieces to the puzzle as they come in.
 
Thanks Desertyeti and Level-- Zimmer is great. Yes, I'd heard they did multiple measurements... I've read Robert Martin's contrary account in nature, and it just sounded so unlikely. He made it sound as if it was more likely that we'd find a severely handicapped human for the time period than a species (or sub species of human--depending where you want to draw the line) that had been previously unidentified. Especially when we are finding a treasure trove of previously unidentified mammals in Australian caves, and all sorts of wild life forms previously unheard of in the depths of our oceans. There is other evidence as well...the tiny foot prints and the fire pits...etc. Apparently, there has been a big deal about these remains in the anthropology community--but from a genetic stand point, it just seems sooo unlikely that a deformed creature would survive to adulthood, much less that we'd run across it's remains as opposed to it's more normal kin. Now that we can go back in the cave, I bet we can get some DNA from the little people. And these folks were alive very recently...overlapping in time with humans and Neandertals.

But it is human so that you can't conceder it a random event, I mean what are the odds we would have remains of multiple family members from 3000 years ago? well if that family is Pharaohs it is not the same as if they are others.

If they where not human I would grant that the odds of them being deformed individuals is so vanishingly small as to be ignorable, but they are humans and so the odds are not random.
 
If they where not human I would grant that the odds of them being deformed individuals is so vanishingly small as to be ignorable, but they are humans and so the odds are not random.
Ponderingturtle, I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here. In what way would their being human cause a bias toward deformed rather than normal individuals either surviving to adulthood, or being preserved long enough to be found?
Or is that not what you're saying?
 
Ponderingturtle, I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here. In what way would their being human cause a bias toward deformed rather than normal individuals either surviving to adulthood, or being preserved long enough to be found?
Or is that not what you're saying?

Look at how many deformed individuals exist in modern society who could not fend for themselves in the wild. That is a pretty good argument that they would be more likely to survive in a human society than a random animal in the wild.

As for having their remains survive to this day, well that is highly dependent on what is done with them, so funerary rights and related issues matter a lot, and most wild animals don't have funerary rights at all. For example if they buried in the cave for a religious reason.

Society changes so much about what individuals can survive and how they are treated after death.
 
Ponderingturtle, I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here. In what way would their being human cause a bias toward deformed rather than normal individuals either surviving to adulthood, or being preserved long enough to be found?
Or is that not what you're saying?

Don't worry, you are far from the only person who doesn't understand him/her/it. We have multiple bones and artifacts and foot prints that suggest these were tiny people--we only have one full skull. Fossils are pretty rare...bodies degrade...presumably only a very tiny fraction of all the large life forms that ever existed are even available for humans to come across. I can't imagine a microcephalic individual surviving to adulthood in a primitive human species--however, even if some did--I think it's much more likely that any preserved fossils we happen to dig up would be far more likely to come from a representative of the adult population and not the single extremely rare and unlikely exception. Finding a fossil in the first place is like winning the lottery--finding the single microcephalic skull in the populations that inhabited the Island would be like winning the lottery twice. If we dug up a random grave in a random graveyard, we'd still be really unlikely to find the non-representative individual. But now that we can go into the cave again, we should find more clues and maybe even more skulls and, and best of all, DNA. That skull showed many intermediary traits between human pygmies and our apelike ancestors. It did not show traits common to microcephalics.
Scientists are doing the best they can to rule out the microcephalic "theory" that many found a stretch in the first place. When you find something this cool, you want to make sure you aren't indulging in wishful thinking. I believe the prime person on the discovery team who is certain that this is not a Microcephalic is a female, and the primary opponent (the Microcephalic theorist) is a guy. I have wondered if his insistence on his microcephalic hypothesis might be kind of an ego thing.

Read Zimmer, not Pondering Turtle for a more comprehensive view. Or read about Robert Martin--the guy who keeps insisting that this is a microcephalic and why he has figured this.
 
Don't worry, you are far from the only person who doesn't understand him/her/it. We have multiple bones and artifacts and foot prints that suggest these were tiny people--we only have one full skull.
So pygmies are not human then? Little people are not human either? There was an interesting story about them and how they decided as a people to stop breeding because they where too inbred and had to many birth defects.

Would skeletons of such small people with say unusual features get classed as not human? Also isn't there some suggestions of pygmies on the island that the bones where found?

Fossils are pretty rare...bodies degrade...presumably only a very tiny fraction of all the large life forms that ever existed are even available for humans to come across. I can't imagine a microcephalic individual surviving to adulthood in a primitive human species--however, even if some did--I think it's much more likely that any preserved fossils we happen to dig up would be far more likely to come from a representative of the adult population and not the single extremely rare and unlikely exception.

We are not talking about a primitive human species though we are talking about effectively modern humans, as that is the kind of tools that where found in proximity to the bones.

So you would class the Egyptian mummies as being a representative sample of the population? What about the bog bodies found in Europe, a number have direct evidence of murder, so as a representative sample of deaths, look at how common human sacrifice was.
Finding a fossil in the first place is like winning the lottery--finding the single microcephalic skull in the populations that inhabited the Island would be like winning the lottery twice.

Yep and one in a million odds happen 7 times a day in NYC 20 if you count its suburbs.

Where is your proof that with humans the process is random, it is not even random for animals as the variety of environment that the animal prefers will effect things. Look at the tar pits, it is not a representative sample of animal bones there, predators are massively over represented because of the mechanism of the tar pits.
If we dug up a random grave in a random graveyard, we'd still be really unlikely to find the non-representative individual. But now that we can go into the cave again, we should find more clues and maybe even more skulls and, and best of all, DNA. That skull showed many intermediary traits between human pygmies and our apelike ancestors. It did not show traits common to microcephalics.
You are still arguing that it is an entirely random occurrence to find an individuals skeleton. Wow think of how many times we could have won the lottery with all the mummies found who we can say we know about this individual from history books. That is like winning the lottery a million times.

You should note that I am not actualy argueing a pro microcephalic arguement, I am just pointing out repeated failures I am seeing in those attacking it.
 
I am very intrigued by this evidence, however i am still holding out on calling this a separate species until they get another specimen, especially one with a skull.
 
The large size and degree of working of the stone tools indicate that they were made my normal-sized, anatomically modern humans, not the small hominid. There is currently no reason to retain the Flores hominid in Homo, since its brain size is smaller than any other Homo species, and the rest of its anatomy is too poorly described to decide what it actually is for now. That's why most researchers simply refer to them as the "Flores hominids."
 
Just in case someone wants to know the criteria that can be used to separate the genus Homo from the other hominids, scroll down at
http://arts.anu.edu.au/grovco/Palaeo.htm
Untill you find
4 - Hominid functional anatomy
Those PPTs are pretty good!

With Grove´s PPT in mind, and looking at the flores hominid skull, I would guess a set of characteristics that would allow -or not- its classification within our genus might be present.
 
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Hobbits are not microcephalics


True - all the ones I have seen had heads of normal or larger size - depending on the special effects work.
 
Hobbits are not microcephalics


True - all the ones I have seen had heads of normal or larger size - depending on the special effects work.

Ah a rousing chorus of "Frodo and the Nine Fingers" and "Where there's a Whip, there's a way".
 

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