Blasphemy - still illegal in the US!

A state's statement of intent not to prosecute, IMHO, is utterly irrelevant and without any merit. Even aside from the fact that people and policies change (as you point out)... people also lie. Or prosecute when it is politically expedient.

The only affirmative disclaimer of intent to prosecute is a repeal of the law.
 
Huntster has been suspended for challenging quyak to a fist fight because they have a difference of opinion about abortion.

Bad timing then. Looks like I've wasted a good sermon, unless Huntster is unusually diligent about looking up old posts after a hiatus. :cry1

Huntster: The Christian who sees unbelievers as an abstraction so that he can crush them without conscience.
Myriad: The Christian who sees unbelievers as individuals who need to be gently persuaded.
Sorry if my quick read produced a mischaracterisation.

Apology not required as far as I'm concerned. For a quick summary, 95% accurate is pretty good, and I'm willing to own your characterization of me relative to your characterization of Huntster.

But to fill in the other 5%, I think unbelievers can sometimes be persuaded but I question the need to do so in a great many cases; I think belief is overrated relative to actions (a believing bigot is more in need of teaching than a humanistically moral nonbeliever); and I think too many Christians have forgotten that disciples are supposed to learn as well as teach.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
So you do then at least tacitly support the marine assaulting someone simply for what they say or believe.

Schadenfreude is what boots on the ground Christianity does best. Anybody who believes it's about peace and love needs to read emails like the one Huntster posted, or hear a Christian gleefully talk about what will happen to those left behind in the Rapture.
 
After the professor openly demanded that God had 15 minutes to knock him from the podium, and after 14 minutes of "cursing or contumeliously reproaching" God.

As has been pointed out, the law that was the OT is unconstitutional and has not been taken off the books for various reasons - all the same, one cannot be prosecuted for it.

Then it would appear that if the professor was talking to God, then he believed God existed, and he should have expected a whuppin, cause "thems were fightin' words."

So if the professor had said "If God exists, may He strike me dead" you'd fall out of your chair laughing if the Marine had pulled out an M-9 and shot him to death?
 
A state's statement of intent not to prosecute, IMHO, is utterly irrelevant and without any merit. Even aside from the fact that people and policies change (as you point out)... people also lie. Or prosecute when it is politically expedient.
I agree. No estoppel against the government, and all that. So I would say that a plaintiff would generally have standing to challenge the constitutionality of a statute under which he might be prosecuted, even if no charges have yet been filed, and even if the state has declared an intent not to enforce the law in question.
 
Actually, here's an idea: file a civil tort against the state, for causing emotional distress.

You're an atheist residing in Massachusetts, and you regularly blaspheme. You also happen to be a very nervous person, and you are constantly worrying about whether someone will arrest and imprison / fine you.

Or, you're an atheist and, as part of doing business, regularly blaspheme. Therefore this law is illegally impeding on your right to go about your business.

So you sue both for damages and for judicial repeal.
 
I agree. No estoppel against the government, and all that. So I would say that a plaintiff would generally have standing to challenge the constitutionality of a statute under which he might be prosecuted, even if no charges have yet been filed, and even if the state has declared an intent not to enforce the law in question.

A few years ago, the Ninth Circuit dealt with a case (Thomas v. Anchorage Equal Rights Commission, 220 F.3d 1134 (9th Cir. 2000)) in which some landlords had challenged state and municipal housing laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of marital status, claiming it violated their First Amendment rights to free exercise and free speech. There hadn't been any enforcement action against the plaintiffs, but they sought declaratory and injunctive relief. The trial court found that the claims were justiciable (and also found for the plaintiffs on the free exercise claim). On appeal, the Ninth Circuit vacated on the grounds that the dispute was not ripe for review. (The U.S. Supreme Court subsequently denied certiorari.) From the en banc appellate opinion:

Whether the question is viewed as one of standing or ripeness, the Constitution mandates that prior to our exercise of jurisdiction there exist a constitutional "case or controversy," that the issues presented are "definite and concrete, not hypothetical or abstract." Railway Mail Ass'n v. Corsi, 326 U.S. 88, 93, 89 L. Ed. 2072, 65 S. Ct. 1483 (1945). In assuring that this jurisdictional prerequisite is satisfied, we consider whether the plaintiffs face "a realistic danger of sustaining a direct injury as a result of the statute's operation or enforcement," Babbitt v. United Farm Workers Nat'l Union, 442 U.S. 289, 298, 60 L. Ed. 2d 895, 99 S. Ct. 2301 (1979), or whether the alleged injury is too "imaginary" or "speculative" to support jurisdiction. Id. We need not delve into the nuances of the distinction between the injury in fact prong of standing and the constitutional component of ripeness: in this case, the analysis is the same.

We have held that neither the mere existence of a proscriptive statute nor a generalized threat of prosecution satisfies the "case or controversy" requirement. See, e.g., San Diego County Gun Rights Comm. v. Reno, 98 F.3d 1121, 1126-27 (9th Cir. 1996). In a somewhat circular argument, the landlords contend that they are presently injured because they must violate the housing laws to remain true to their religious beliefs, even though their beliefs counsel against violating secular law. This argument is essentially another way of saying that the mere existence of a statute can create a constitutionally sufficient direct injury, a position that we have rejected before and decline to adopt now. See id. ("'the mere existence of a statute . . . is not sufficient to create a case or controversy within the meaning of Article III.'" (quoting Stoianoff v. Montana, 695 F.2d 1214, 1223 (9th Cir. 1983))). Rather, there must be a "genuine threat of imminent prosecution." 98 F.3d at 1126.

In evaluating the genuineness of a claimed threat of prosecution, we look to whether the plaintiffs have articulated a "concrete plan" to violate the law in question, whether the prosecuting authorities have communicated a specific warning or threat to initiate proceedings, and the history of past prosecution or enforcement under the challenged statute. Id. at 1126-27. Applying these three factors here, we conclude that the landlords' claimed injury - their fear of enforcement or prosecution - fails the constitutional component of the ripeness inquiry.


Now, the analysis may differ somewhat in other circuits. Yet I have to imagine that decades and decades of complete non-enforcement of a statute would weigh heavily with any court in evaluating whether there a justiciable controversy existed.
 
Wow, I leave town for the weekend and Huntster gets himself suspended again. He's right about one thing: My wife's grandfather was a great guy with the wisdom to recognize an ignorant bully when he saw one. He knew what the values he was fighting for, that his friends died for, were really all about. He knew that in our society people have the right to think freely and to believe things that other people think are wrong and not be persecuted for it. Huntster, on the other hand, thinks it's a hoot to imagine one of the guardians of that freedom using violence to silence someone who's ideas he doesn't like.

My whole time on this forum I have never seen fit to place anyone on ignore. But I'm dusting it off now so I can place Hunster on my ignore list.
 
Now, the analysis may differ somewhat in other circuits. Yet I have to imagine that decades and decades of complete non-enforcement of a statute would weigh heavily with any court in evaluating whether there a justiciable controversy existed.

That certainly sounds reasonable, but am I wrong in remembering that the plaintiff in Bowers v. Hardwick had not been prosecuted under Georgia's anti-sodomy law, but only alleged that, as a practicing homosexual, he feared he would be prosecuted? As I read the quote from the 9th Circuit case you cite, it appears that, unlike Bowers, the plaintiffs were actually complying with the law (i.e., were not discriminating on the basis of marital status), so their argument that they might be subject to prosecution was somewhat more speculative. To return to the Massachusetts example, if, say, a local atheist who routinely makes "blasphemous" statements in public, in clear violation of the statute, were to bring a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the anti-blasphemy law, wouldn't the fact that he has already taken actions which constitute a violation of that law render his claim concrete enough to establish standing?
 
Bad timing then. Looks like I've wasted a good sermon, unless Huntster is unusually diligent about looking up old posts after a hiatus.
My understanding is that he can still read anything posted here, but he can't post any replies.

...I think unbelievers can sometimes be persuaded but I question the need to do so in a great many cases; I think belief is overrated relative to actions (a believing bigot is more in need of teaching than a humanistically moral nonbeliever); and I think too many Christians have forgotten that disciples are supposed to learn as well as teach.
Sounds good, Myriad. But does this mean that you don't think unbelievers are automatically confined to hell in the afterlife (lots of assumptions here, I know)
 
That certainly sounds reasonable, but am I wrong in remembering that the plaintiff in Bowers v. Hardwick had not been prosecuted under Georgia's anti-sodomy law, but only alleged that, as a practicing homosexual, he feared he would be prosecuted? As I read the quote from the 9th Circuit case you cite, it appears that, unlike Bowers, the plaintiffs were actually complying with the law (i.e., were not discriminating on the basis of marital status), so their argument that they might be subject to prosecution was somewhat more speculative. To return to the Massachusetts example, if, say, a local atheist who routinely makes "blasphemous" statements in public, in clear violation of the statute, were to bring a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the anti-blasphemy law, wouldn't the fact that he has already taken actions which constitute a violation of that law render his claim concrete enough to establish standing?

I thought Hardwick had actually been arrested (but never tried) on a sodomy charge.

I don't think, under the Ninth Circuit standard, that being in present violation of the statute is enough to confer standing or that being in present compliance with the statute is enough to remove standing. Actual (or imminent) violation is only one part of the analysis. Practically speaking, what makes prosecution of your hypothetical atheist under a blasphemy statute not genuinely imminent, it seems to me, is really the third factor: "the history of past prosecution or enforcement under the challenged statute."

I recall that at the trial and circuit level, Hardwick was joined by two other plaintiffs - a straight couple. The district court and the court of appeals both found that their claim was not justiciable, and they didn't join in the Supreme Court proceeding. Though I'm not sure, I suspect that part of what killed their standing argument was a history of non-enforcement against heterosexuals which made the threat of prosecution of the straight couple seem remote.
 
I've changed my mind. After a night of sleep (I read the posts that got on my nerves following a six hour drive) and some sound advice I've decided not to use my ignore list after all. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not that I think I'll end up like T'ai Chi with, seemingly, more people on ignore than not, but his own abuse of the feature illustrates why I don't like it. Even ideas that offend me add to my understanding, if not the ideas themselves, then the insight into the minds of those who hold them is surely informative.
 
I've changed my mind. After a night of sleep (I read the posts that got on my nerves following a six hour drive) and some sound advice I've decided not to use my ignore list after all. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not that I think I'll end up like T'ai Chi with, seemingly, more people on ignore than not,

T'ai Chi does not have one single poster on ignore. There's absolutely no chance he would want to miss out on just one comment about him.

but his own abuse of the feature illustrates why I don't like it. Even ideas that offend me add to my understanding, if not the ideas themselves, then the insight into the minds of those who hold them is surely informative.

Absolutely. We should get rid of the ignore function altogether.
 
Wow, I go away for a couple days and this explodes. Figures

1. Beerina - are you a resident of, or currently in, Massachusetts? If not, then your blasphemy has been in vain. If yes, then please go turn yourself in to the nearest jail and insist that you be prosecuted for your crimes. ;)

Nah, the last time I was in Massachusetts was 15 years ago when I was 25 and visiting the Boston office, and an uber-gorgeous blonde divorced 32 year old secretary with big red lips literally (literally literally) dragged me into bed at the local Residence Inn. She was even named "Debbie".

Dang, why did I leave there?
 

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