I was just on Radio 5!

[volatile]

David Shayler, former MI5 agent turned conspiraloon, was on Steven Nolan's show on national Radio 5 this evening (listen here for a stream from tomorrow morning for the rest of the week) spouting every lie in Loose Change - no planes, thermite, controlled demolition, PNAC and the rest.

Thankfully the researchers let me on air to mention 911myths.com and loosechangeguide.com, and whilst I was nervous and apoplectic with rage, I hope I was at least coherent.

Beware a lot of upsurge of CT activity from the UK (I was the only caller not claiming conspiracy!) over the next few days, as Shayler is high-profile, media-savvy and always good for column inches.

 

[MikeW]

I read a good summing-up of Shayler a while ago... They pointed out that he'd used up all his inside knowledge about MI5 a while ago, so now had to attach himself to whatever conspiracy theory is doing well at the moment to keep himself in the spotlight. And that looks to be true, because judging from what I've read, he's completely indiscriminate re: 9/11, he seems to swallow the lot.

Congrats on getting on national radio to confront him, anyway. If he gets coverage in print then I'll see if I can get a reply. It's about time the wider public got to see just how deceptive the "truth" movement really is.

 

[Architect]

Radio 5?

Doubling their listener numbers in a single go!!!

Just kidding. Well done mate.

Note for Americans and other aliens: Radio 5 is a BBC national radio station.

 

[volatile]

I read a good summing-up of Shayler a while ago... They pointed out that he'd used up all his inside knowledge about MI5 a while ago, so now had to attach himself to whatever conspiracy theory is doing well at the moment to keep himself in the spotlight. And that looks to be true, because judging from what I've read, he's completely indiscriminate re: 9/11, he seems to swallow the lot.

Congrats on getting on national radio to confront him, anyway. If he gets coverage in print then I'll see if I can get a reply. It's about time the wider public got to see just how deceptive the "truth" movement really is.

Unfortunately I didn't get to debate him directly, as the piece they played was pre-recorded.

But yeah, he's indiscriminate to the extreme. He's a no-planer. No plane hit the WTC towers, no plane hit the pentagon, thermite, thermate, iron ore, PNAC blah blah blah.

I actually had a modicum of respect for his first whistleblowing - I'm pretty convinced he was honest about the unsavoury practices he uncovered in MI5, and the reactions of the authorities immediately after his expose seemed to bear this out. It's all the more frustrating, then, that he comes out just parroting Loose Change word for word!

 

[volatile]

Radio 5?

Doubling their listener numbers in a single go!!!

Just kidding. Well done mate.

Note for Americans and other aliens: Radio 5 is a BBC national radio station.

This time of night, you're probably right!

That said, their daytime listener-ship is huge, and I think there's a chance this will catch a wave of interest tomorrow and come up in "prime-time", their afternoon phone-in slots. To be honest, Arch, you know far more about this stuff (particularly when it comes to NIST) than I do, and I hope that if this does get the wind of a slow news day, you'll be able to ring up yourself and get our side out.

It was remarkably easy to get on air - my call was answered immediately, I was phoned back in 5 minutes and on air 2 minutes after that - so if you are able to have R5 on in your office tomorrow, maybe it'll be of interest.

 

[MikeW]

I actually had a modicum of respect for his first whistleblowing - I'm pretty convinced he was honest about the unsavoury practices he uncovered in MI5, and the reactions of the authorities immediately after his expose seemed to bear this out. It's all the more frustrating, then, that he comes out just parroting Loose Change word for word!

Me too, but that's what actually makes this worse. What he's doing now will persuade at least some people that his original claims were just as nonsensical as the "no plane" stuff, and that's bad news. He's actually helping the people he claims to be fighting. (Some of the CTs now say that's because he's still an MI5 agent after all, just very undercover, but I think there's a simpler explanation: he's an idiot.)

 

[Brainster]

Since he's peddling no planes at the WTC, he's gone beyond the Loose Change boys. They support the more limited hangout of no plane at the Pentagon.

 

[LashL]

Excellent to hear, Matt, even though I'm not in the UK and didn't hear it live or anyfink

I'm not really surprised to hear your warning about an influx of woo coming from the UK shortly, though, after reading about Willie Rodriguez soon to be doing his schtick in the UK for the month of February and David Shayler is, apparently, part of that at some point. So, thanks for the heads up and thanks for calling in to lend some reality and critical thinking to the woowoo mindset that you're confronted with.

Cheers,
Lash

 

[Architect]

These UK blips are usually signalled by an increase in woowoo articles on Indymedia.org.uk ..... some of the mods seem a bit sympathetic to it all. Shayler gets a fair bit of coverage too. I'll let you know if they start to pick up any more than normal.

 

[brodski]

Nice one, I'll listen to the stream tonight.
One small nitpick though

David Shayler, former MI5 agent turned conspiraloon,

Shayler was never an "agent" (which refers to someone not directly employed by a security or intelligence agency, but who works for them), nor was he an operative (implying that eh was involved in covert activities.
Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.
Calling him an "agent" adds an air of romantic mystery to Shayler which he simply does not deserve (Mattloder, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, most people refer to Shayler as an MI5 Agent, and that is almost always how the press portrays him, but it just isn't true and it winds me up.)

Anyway, well done for getting some rationality onto radio 5.

 

[Firestone]

Nice one, I'll listen to the stream tonight.
One small nitpick though

Shayler was never an "agent" (which refers to someone not directly employed by a security or intelligence agency, but who works for them), nor was he an operative (implying that eh was involved in covert activities.
Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.
Calling him an "agent" adds an air of romantic mystery to Shayler which he simply does not deserve (Mattloder, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, most people refer to Shayler as an MI5 Agent, and that is almost always how the press portrays him, but it just isn't true and it winds me up.)

Anyway, well done for getting some rationality onto radio 5.

That is truly amazing, brodski!

We really have to check everything, I guess.

And thanks for giving me new ammunition for when my dear forum-friends mention this "agent" again.

 

[volatile]

Nice one, I'll listen to the stream tonight.
One small nitpick though

Shayler was never an "agent" (which refers to someone not directly employed by a security or intelligence agency, but who works for them), nor was he an operative (implying that eh was involved in covert activities.
Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.
Calling him an "agent" adds an air of romantic mystery to Shayler which he simply does not deserve (Mattloder, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, most people refer to Shayler as an MI5 Agent, and that is almost always how the press portrays him, but it just isn't true and it winds me up.)

Thanks for pointing that out! I really had assumed from all the coverage I'd read and heard that he was an agent or operative... I guess this is proof positive to always have the sceptical sensors primed!

 

[Architect]

Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.

Really? REALLY?

Sheesh, I did a year working as an HPTO (HEO equivalent) straight out of university....with due respect to the many, many EOs in the service, that's a Pixie grade!!!

Do we have a source for this? I'd love to use it to slap down Shayler threads elsewhere!

 

[brodski]

Really? REALLY?

Sheesh, I did a year working as an HPTO (HEO equivalent) straight out of university....with due respect to the many, many EOs in the service, that's a Pixie grade!!!

Do we have a source for this? I'd love to use it to slap down Shayler threads elsewhere!

Not a single source no.
Most of this comes from my memory of him on Have I Got News for You, where he complained about his below acceptable performance reports, and he reported his salary. A quick calculation put him firmly in the EO range.

Shayler was a "desk officer", which can refer to EO or HEO grades. . He was defiantly not an Intelligence Officer (IO), see his wiki entery, or his many press interviews where he talks about his role as a "desk officer".

Details are a little trick to come by, because disclosing almost any information about the Security Service or the Secret Intelligence Service is a breach of the official secrets act.

 

[Architect]

Even HEO/HPTO isn't exactly high falutin' though.

 

[brodski]

Even HEO/HPTO isn't exactly high falutin' though.

Not generally no, but it depends on your department.
The more sensitive or politically high profile the department you work for the more senior you have to be to have any real responsibility.
In DWP (and in Jobcentres in particular) a HEO will be considered fairly senior, in more policy focused departments HEO is the workhorse grade, with little responsibility.
In the security and intelligence services, they employ no administrative grades (AA or AO), and although all of their employees have the highest level of security clearance, the filingstill needs to be done my someone, and without AA's or AO's around….

All this is by the by, Shalyer isn't the international man of mystery he claimed to be. The problem is, given the secret nature of his employment he can make plenty of claims about exactly what he did whist at 5 without fear of contradiction, as anyone with actual knowledge of what he was doing is not at liberty to let the general public know. And is certainly not in a position to provide direct evidence of Shaylers lies without facing prosecution.

 

[Gravy]

Well done, Mattloder!

Nice one, I'll listen to the stream tonight.
One small nitpick though

Shayler was never an "agent" (which refers to someone not directly employed by a security or intelligence agency, but who works for them), nor was he an operative (implying that eh was involved in covert activities.
Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.
Calling him an "agent" adds an air of romantic mystery to Shayler which he simply does not deserve (Mattloder, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, most people refer to Shayler as an MI5 Agent, and that is almost always how the press portrays him, but it just isn't true and it winds me up.)

Anyway, well done for getting some rationality onto radio 5.

That's interesting. In the U.S. "agent" does sometimes mean a direct employee (usually an investigator) of some intelligence agency. Your title might be "Special Agent Brodski, FBI." We also call professional CIA spies "agents," although their actual title is [SIZE=-1]"Clandestine Service Operations Officers." Then, of course, there's "Secret Agent Man."

I didn't know those details about Shayler. More ammo for the good guys.
[/SIZE]

 

[Architect]

In the British context, "Agent" would correspond to the American "Field Agent" and imply an active role getting of their arses and doing something (cue Civil Service joke).

Brodski, wasn't the wee Scottish Troll fae Kim and Aggie/How Clean is your House actually reasonably senior in the MI5 or 6 tree at one stage?

 

[brodski]

In the British context, "Agent" would correspond to the American "Field Agent" and imply an active role getting of their arses and doing something (cue Civil Service joke).

Only in the common usage, that is not the way that the security and intelligence services themselves use the term.
In the British inelegance departments You have Desk Officers and Intelligence Officers. IO's are "operatives", informers and other "assets" are "agents". Shayller was a DO and therefore neither an "operative" or an Agent".
James bond is a fictional operative, not a fictional agent.

Brodski, wasn't the wee Scottish Troll fae Kim and Aggie/How Clean is your House actually reasonably senior in the MI5 or 6 tree at one stage?

I have no idea, although like the rest of the Civil Service, the security and intelligence services do employ a lot of women, and have generally been more proactive about promoting women to more senior grades than private industry has, so it's within the realms of possibility.

 

[sophia8]

Shayler was never an "agent" (which refers to someone not directly employed by a security or intelligence agency, but who works for them), nor was he an operative (implying that eh was involved in covert activities.
Shayler was employed by the Security Service at the lowest non-industrial pay grade which the Security Service supports (home civil service EO equivalent).
Shayler was a jumped up filing clerk, who (by his own admission) consistently got below acceptable performance reports, and decided to betray his country for personal financial gain.
Calling him an "agent" adds an air of romantic mystery to Shayler which he simply does not deserve (Mattloder, I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, most people refer to Shayler as an MI5 Agent, and that is almost always how the press portrays him, but it just isn't true and it winds me up.)

I'm similarly wound up about how Nick Pope is constantly referred to as an "MoD chief" or something similar, implying that he was something high-up in the military. In fact, he was just a middle-ranking civil servant - HEO grade, I believe - doing desk-jockey work in the Ministry of Defence.
Heck, I started my working life in the Civil service, straight from school with NO qualifications; if I'd stayed, I could have made HEO grade by the age of 30, simply by not making any major FUs!