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Split from: Hitchen's Signature Behavior

I can't refrain and I blame Glenn! ;)

The Tortured Tale of the Moving Goalpost Made of Straw

If you want to pretend that MoveOn hasn't made a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler, you run into a brick wall of reality.
You have yet to provide credible evidence supporting this claim.

As you are well aware, a random bozo submitted an ad as part of a contest, and it was placed on Moveon's site along with all the other submissions. And yet you morph this into a Moveon ad and a "practice".

(I repeat my disclaimer: I don't read Moveon and hence don't know about their practices. If they do what you say, I would condemn them unequivocally.)

Among the dozens of articles castigating MoveOn.org for its despicable ads, Tammy Bruce's "Move On Freudian Nazi Ad" remains one of my favorites
And here is the absurd strawman Bruce constructs to start her rant about the ad in question, and you defend, as if the random bozo, or Moveon, or Soros is in charge of the democratic party:
Bruce said:
The Leftist extremists now in charge of the Democratic Party are either so desperate or delusional they are now comparing this nation to Hitler’s Third Reich and the president to Hitler himself.

I said that GEORGE SOROS, MoveOn's principal backer, has made a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler. That much is incontrovertible.
If it's "incontrovertible" that it's a "practice", it should be a slam dunk for you to cite multiple examples, with links, hold the mayo spin. Yet you haven't.

Goalpost summary: Random bozo > Moveon > Soros.

That leftists have compared Bush to Hitler countless times is shameful.
Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > leftists.

Soros has backed away from some of his more outrageous remarks comparing Bush's America to the Third Reich, but what did he actually say in his book? For a useful analysis, see...
Argumentum ad Kevin Baconum. As Cleon rightly points out, you should cite Soros, not third party opinion.

Googling "Bush and Hitler" produces about 2,040,000 results.
And with this absurd factoid, your goalpost has qualified for the marathon in the Bejing summer olympics!

Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search

Yet it doesn't stop there...
A major difference between me and the Democratic sycophants is that I have no interest in defending indefensible behavior.
In addition, you have no interest and/or ability in defending your own claim: "If you want to pretend that MoveOn hasn't made a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler, you run into a brick wall of reality." For the nth time, bring on the wall.
Margaret Cho [et al] doesn't compare Bush to Hitler...
Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search > Celebrities

Come to think of it, even mainstream politicians like Charley Rangel don't indulge in the Nazi stuff.
Ah, it's nice to see that the goalpost is capable of backwards motion! Afterall, it wasn't that long ago that you defended Bruce who hung Bush/Hitler on "extremists now in charge of the Democratic Party". Or is the party run by a secret cabal headed by Soros and Margaret Cho?

Those loony-left blogs that compare Bush to Hitler on a daily basis
Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search > Celebrities > loony left bloggers

Yes, you're right: I've presented no evidence.
As to the original goalpost location, yes, this is essentially true.

And I don't think that anyone posting here disputes there is a loony left that, unfortunately, does the Bush/Hitler routine. If you want to retract your original claim and start over with "the loony left", be my guest (though I suggest you be more specific and cite examples).
 
varwoche, that was so damned funny and well done, I had to nominate you.

LA- doing her part for the leftist conspiracy.
 
Hello
I'm new to the JREF forum, but i was at TAM 5 and thought Christopher Hitchens speech was Great! During the board discussion i felt he could have been nicer to fellow guest Scott Dikkers, but his comments were interesting and good for the panel discussion. Christopher Hitchens is no doubt intelligent, politically incorrect, and controversial and he is a must have for TAM 6 and every other TAM as far as i'm concerned..


 
I can't refrain and I blame Glenn! ;)

The Tortured Tale of the Moving Goalpost Made of Straw

You have yet to provide credible evidence supporting this claim.


It's an easy game when any evidence I supply is instantly rejected as "not credible."


As you are well aware, a random bozo submitted an ad as part of a contest, and it was placed on Moveon's site along with all the other submissions. And yet you morph this into a Moveon ad and a "practice".

(I repeat my disclaimer: I don't read Moveon and hence don't know about their practices. If they do what you say, I would condemn them unequivocally.)


Very tricky, but the "random bozo" is a typical Moveon member whose ad was selected to appear on the site. Was every ad submitted to the contest shown there as well? I don't know, but apparently the prominence given to the Bush-as-Hitler stuff provoked the following response:

(from Worldnet.daily)

In November, Soros compared Bush to Hitler in an interview with the Washington Post.
Saying he believed the White House was guided by a "supremacist ideology," Soros complained: "America, under Bush, is a danger to the world ... When I hear Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds me of the Germans ... My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me."
Soros, a Hungarian emigre, announced before the interview was published he was donating $5 million to Move On, the organization's single biggest contribution ever.
In an editorial in the Wall Street Journal today, Jack Rosen, president of the American Jewish Congress, decried the comparison between Bush and Hitler: "Comparing the commander in chief of a democratic nation to the murderous tyrant Hitler is not only historically specious, it is morally outrageous. Comparing an American president, any American president, to Hitler is an outrage. The MoveOn.org ad was inexcusable. Political figures such as Al Gore, who have associated themselves with Moveon.org, have a special responsibility to condemn these ads; donors to the group such as George Soros have the same responsibility. They owe it not just to the memory of the millions who died in the Holocaust. They owe it also as a simple matter of decency."





And here is the absurd strawman Bruce constructs to start her rant about the ad in question, and you defend, as if the random bozo, or Moveon, or Soros is in charge of the democratic party:


If it's "incontrovertible" that it's a "practice", it should be a slam dunk for you to cite multiple examples, with links, hold the mayo spin. Yet you haven't.

Goalpost summary: Random bozo > Moveon > Soros.

Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > leftists.


You attempt, clumsily, to pretend that the ads featured by Moveon constitute a strawman. I don't believe you, and I'm not alone. People here have given me sophomoric lectures explaining that the left is not a monolith. Perhaps if you search hard enough, you might discover someone who actually thinks it is, but that's your problem. George Soros and Moveon.org do not yet control the Democratic Party, but they exert a powerful influence (ask Joe Lieberman). Your "random bozo" may be a bozo, but he is very far from being an anomaly.



Argumentum ad Kevin Baconum. As Cleon rightly points out, you should cite Soros, not third party opinion.

And with this absurd factoid, your goalpost has qualified for the marathon in the Bejing summer olympics!

Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search



You seem to overlook that the link I provided refers us to Soros's words in his own book. Less time spent admiring one's own debating skills would permit more time for reading what I actually wrote.



Yet it doesn't stop there...
In addition, you have no interest and/or ability in defending your own claim: "If you want to pretend that MoveOn hasn't made a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler, you run into a brick wall of reality." For the nth time, bring on the wall.
Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search > Celebrities


As often as I present evidence for my argument, you will deny the validity of the evidence. I get the idea.


Ah, it's nice to see that the goalpost is capable of backwards motion! Afterall, it wasn't that long ago that you defended Bruce who hung Bush/Hitler on "extremists now in charge of the Democratic Party". Or is the party run by a secret cabal headed by Soros and Margaret Cho?

Random bozo > Moveon > Soros > Leftists > idiotic google search > Celebrities > loony left bloggers


We both agree that Bruce is exaggerating. She isn't far wrong, however, or Michael Moore would not have received a seat of honor at the Democratic National Convention.




And I don't think that anyone posting here disputes there is a loony left that, unfortunately, does the Bush/Hitler routine.



I disagree.



If you want to retract your original claim and start over with "the loony left", be my guest (though I suggest you be more specific and cite examples).


I'll stick to the formulation "moveon types" as characterizing a portion of the like-minded ideologues who comprise the broader segment accurately termed the loony left. I reiterate that Moveon the organization, as opposed to its individual members, was sufficiently prudent to back away from the Nazi comparisons.

Jonah Goldberg skewers the BusHitler crowd neatly in this piece:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9709

Here is the link to Traub's article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/m...2ede8&ex=1169960400&pagewanted=print&position=
 
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Well, he claims Wilson is lying because he would have said he debunked
the forged Niger documents. But he doesn't offer any evidence that
Wilson would have said that. Basically, the article appears to support
the idea that Wilson was one of several whistleblowers, which seems
to be what Wilson himself is claiming.

Additionally, I love this part:
Stephen F Hayes said:
Some current and former Bush administration officials remain convinced
that the French role in this matter was no accident. They speculate
that French intelligence, seeking to embarrass the U.S. government,
may have been the original source of the bad documents.
Well, it may be hard to believe that the French administration would
be as incompetent as the Bush administration, but I didn't know this
sentiment was shared by the Bush administration itself!

Besides, I think even the Bush administration would have been able to
come up with a better forgery.
 
Boy, do I miss that crazy lady with the American flag hat. At least she had the excuse of being insane. What´s your excuse?

I was sitting just a few seats down from that crazy lady. Did anyone else notice that she was cheering for Hitchens and Dikkers with equal fervor?
 
Forgive me if I am mistaken, and I'll be referring to the DVD's to make sure I'm certain, but I thought that during that outburst Hitchens said (almost mumbled under his breath) something to the effect that "This applies to Judaeism and Chrisitianity equally" and then continued on against Islam.

Did anyone else catch that or am I mistaken? Because that's the point, for me, where his whole diatribe turned into being about all religion, and by extension lack of critical thinking.
....
He made a point of saying Islam was totalitarian which I took as implying the other religions weren't. I remember thinking the other two religions, Judaism and Christianity, met Hitchen's criteria for totalitarianism, that of purist dogmatic view of the tenets.
 
I believe you're correct, Skeptigirl. Dim resources of my aged brain seem to have some memory of him saying that islam is unique in that it insists that islam is the last perfect revelation and that not only must everyone convert, but that the entire world must be ruled by shari'a law.

Personally, I don't think that's much different from the philosophy that birthed the christian theocratic Dark Ages, and islam is at that same awkward age. In Hitchens's favor, I will say that the prospect of nukes in the hands of theocratic warriors is a good bit more daunting than were trebuchets, but I sense some unexplored issues behind his pro-Bush position.
 
From what I understand, Hitchens isn't Pro-Bush. He's Pro-disarming-crazy-islamist-fundamentalists, and pro-democracy in a region that desperately needs it. I've seen him do his share of Bush bashing, but its clear he views Bush as a vehicle of (possibly) accomplishing things he feels are drastically important on a global level. People seem to be in agreement about the importance of stemming global warming, why wouldn't we be in agreement about preventing crazy people with no value for from getting technologically advanced weapons. Do people really think that if we leave the area alone, all these fundamentalists will just go away?

No one is saying that other religions didn't have their dark periods. The issue is that *right now* Islamic fundamentalists are the threat, and we need to pay attention to that.

Fyn
 
What I Didn't Find in Africa is in Wilson's own words. [...] I see nothing in Wilson's own words that allude to any failed transaction or attempted transaction. Wilson does refer to what we now know to be forged documents which were the origin of the claims about Iraq's attempts.
I didn't refer exclusively to "What I Didn't Find In Africa," but also to Wilson's subsequent book The Politics of Truth. If you scope it out on Amazon, you can see that on the first page of chapter one, Wilson states that:
In it [that is, "the piece I had written for the New York Times op-ed page on July 6," meaning "What I didn't Find in Africa"], I stated that the Bush administration had been informed a year and a half earlier that their claims of Iraqi attempts to purchase uranium from Niger were false.
As you say yourself, Skeptigirl, you "see nothing in Wilson's own words [i.e. "What I Didn't Find in Africa"] that allude to any failed transaction or attempted transaction," but in The Politics of Truth, Wilson says that something to that effect is there, even though you and I agree it is not.

(Note, incidentally, that I cited the above passage in my previous post, stating that Wilson had claimed in the book that there had been no attempt on Iraq's part to acquire Nigerien yellowcake.)

What is in the "Intelligence Report" which was what page 43 in the 911 report was referring to was hearsay.
Just for clarification, by the way, the Senate intelligence committee's report on prewar intel assessments of Iraq is not the same thing as the 9/11 report. I'm sure you knew that, and your referring to it as "the 911 report" is just the result of a Freudian slip or something, but I just want to establish we're on the same page here.

You say the material in the CIA report based on Wilson's debriefing was hearsay. Taken by itself, perhaps, but Wilson himself provided corroboration, again in The Politics of Truth. From the Washington Post:
Tenet's statement noted that Wilson had reported back to the CIA that a former Niger official told him that "in June 1999 a businessman approached him and insisted that the former official meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss 'expanding commercial relations' between Iraq and Niger. The former official interpreted the overture as an attempt to discuss uranium sales."

In his book, Wilson recounts his encounter with the unnamed Niger official in 2002, saying, he "hesitated and looked up to the sky as if plumbing the depths of his memory, then offered that perhaps the Iraqi might have wanted to talk about uranium."
Comparing Wilson's recounting with the Senate report, it's safe to assume that the "unnamed official" in question was former Nigerien prime minister Ibrahim Mayaki.
There is a reference above that the former Prime Minister suggested Iraq may have requested "expanding commercial relations" which might have been interpreted as an attempt to buy uranium. It wasn't from Wilson's report.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Wilson's report." In "WIDFiA," Wilson states that he "did not file a written report." The reference to Iraq attempting to "expand commercial relations" comes from a report by CIA Directorate of Operations (DO) based on a verbal debriefing of Wilson by DO personnel, which is, for all practical purposes, "Wilson's report." And, again, Wilson provides confirmation for the claims from this report in his book.

Note that the Senate report mentions an earlier INR intelligence assessment which concluded that it was next to impossible for Niger to actually export uranium ore to Iraq, but did allow that "some [Nigerien] officials may have conspired for individual gain to arrange a uranium sale."

With regard to whether it is plausible that "expanding commercial relations" meant buying yellowcake, it's worth noting that the CIA World Factbook lists Niger's export commodities as uranium ore, livestock, cowpeas and onions. To give you an idea of how important the uranium is in this equation, note that Niger's primary export partner is France, which takes 47.9% (presumably by price) of Niger's exports. France is a major producer of nuclear power--probably the largest in Europe--and is notoriously protectionist when it comes to agricultural products, so it's a safe bet Nigerien exports to France consist entirely of uranium ore (which would explain the degree of French control over Nigerien uranium ore production). The same considerations apply to the US, which takes another 20.3% of Niger's exports. So yellowcake almost certainly accounts for at least two thirds of Niger's income from exports.

So if you were to ask "how plausible is it that 'expanding commericial relations' necessarily involved yellowcake uranium ore?" it's a reasonable response to ask "how plausible is it that it could mean anything else?" With Niger having some of the largest uranium deposits in the world, how likely is it that an Iraqi trade delegation would be looking to buy livestock (more readily imported from, say, Australia, like the Arabian Gulf states do) or onions?

In addition, if you look at the bottom of page 44 of the 911 report, it says the opposite. It says "the ambassador" found no evidence of an attempt to buy yellow-cake.
Correction to my previous post: yes, Wilson, when interviewed by the Senate intelligence committee did "refut[e] the possibility [...] that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium." Unfortunately, this contradicts not only what he reportedly told his CIA DO debriefers, but also what he wrote in The Politics of Truth.

You have a forged document, Wilson found no evidence, and the former Prime Minister said Iran attempted to buy yellow-cake. The Iraq reference is more indirectly described.
The forged sale agreement has no bearing on my argument, so I'll dismiss that for the straw man it is. The reference to the reported Iranian purchase attempt is a red herring, as an attempt by Iran to purchase uranium ore from Niger does not preclude an Iraqi attempt to do the same. That leaves Wilson.

Since Wilson, in his own words, conveniently did not file a written report, it's impossible to tell what he actually told his CIA debriefers. What can be established, however, is that Wilson's account of his findings is highly inconsistent. His statement to the Senate intelligence committee "refuting the possibility [...] that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium" seems to have been the only time he denied outright the salient point of the Sixteen Words, namely that Iraq attempted to acquire uranium ore from Niger; the rest of the time, he's obfuscated, claiming that the Sixteen Words weren't true because Iraq hadn't actually managed to acquire any yellowcake, as if that had any bearing on whether or not they tried. Moreover, he has personally confirmed evidence which strongly suggests that Iraq did make such an attempt, albeit an abortive one.

Too thin to base the Sixteen Words on, sure, but bear in mind the Sixteen Words weren't based on anything Wilson reported (or was alleged to have reported). But the claims that the Sixteen Words were false are based entirely on Wilson's say-so, and his collected statements fail to actually support that accusation.

(Note: for the record, my argument relates exclusively to Wilson's criticism of the Sixteen Words. This has no bearing on my opinion with regard to the administration's subsequent cack-handed attempt at retaliation against Wilson, which I believe was petty, vindictive, unethical, unjustifiable and above all breathtakingly stupid.)
 
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I'll stick to the formulation "moveon types" as characterizing a portion of the like-minded ideologues who comprise the broader segment accurately termed the loony left. I reiterate that Moveon the organization, as opposed to its individual members, was sufficiently prudent to back away from the Nazi comparisons.

Jonah Goldberg skewers the BusHitler crowd neatly in this piece:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9709

Here is the link to Traub's article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/m...2ede8&ex=1169960400&pagewanted=print&position=


So if it's a matter of 'move on types', then most of the entries in that competition would have compared bush to hitler? I don't believe that was the case.
 
I'll stick to the formulation "moveon types" as characterizing a portion of the like-minded ideologues who comprise the broader segment accurately termed the loony left. I reiterate that Moveon the organization, as opposed to its individual members, was sufficiently prudent to back away from the Nazi comparisons.

Jonah Goldberg skewers the BusHitler crowd neatly in this piece:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9709

Here is the link to Traub's article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/m...2ede8&ex=1169960400&pagewanted=print&position=

You have got to be joking, surely? Jonah Golberg is using "Holocaust Denial" as his argument?

We may be living in the worst period of Holocaust denial since the Nuremberg trials. I'm not referring to the twisted morons who insist that the Holocaust never happened the way the Monty Python guys insisted the parrot wasn't dead. I'm referring to the legions of Holocaust deniers in the Democratic Party, on the Web, on college campuses, in the mainstream press and, most acutely, in my e-mail box every morning, who reduce to the Holocaust to a triviality.



:eye-poppi:boggled::jaw-dropp
 
He made a point of saying Islam was totalitarian which I took as implying the other religions weren't. I remember thinking the other two religions, Judaism and Christianity, met Hitchen's criteria for totalitarianism, that of purist dogmatic view of the tenets.

My recollection of what he said about this was that Islam is wrong in the same way that all other religions are wrong. My impression was that he doesn't think Islam is any worse than Christianity used to be, but that Islam has no human leader who can evolve the faith over time like the pope. This lack of a human leader to provide any flexibility means (in Hitchens' opinion) that Islam is unable to change and is therefore stuck in the global conquest/sharia mindset.
 
Pomeroo said:
Very tricky, but the "random bozo" is a (1) typical Moveon member whose ad was selected to appear on the site. (2) Was every ad submitted to the contest shown there as well? I don't know, but apparently the prominence given to the Bush-as-Hitler stuff (3) provoked the following response: (from Worldnet.daily)
(1) Typical Moveon member? How in Odin's name do you know that? Answer: You don't. You're just making inferences that suit your wandering position.

(2) As best I recollect, yes, every submission was on Moveon's site.

(3) Opinion from Worldnet Daily -- a biased, agenda-driven source, is useless to an extreme. If you wish to make a case about Moveon or Soros, you need to quote the words of Moveon or Soros.

You seem to overlook that the link I provided refers us to Soros's words in his own book. Less time spent admiring one's own debating skills would permit more time for reading what I actually wrote.
What a load of evasive nonsense. If there are quotes from Soros in the article that make your point, quote them here.

I would appreciate it if you would desist with the indirection and array all of the quotes from Soros that you think make the case that he has a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler. Anything less I will consider evasive and dishonest.

We both agree that Bruce is exaggerating.
Exaggerating? To say the least. Those were the first two paragraphs -- the very premise -- of her absurd straw heap. She engages in the same type of mindless blather that you so vociferously (and disjointedly) object to when it comes from the left. Yet you hold it up as a shining example when it comes from the right.
 
I believe you're correct, Skeptigirl. Dim resources of my aged brain seem to have some memory of him saying that islam is unique in that it insists that islam is the last perfect revelation and that not only must everyone convert, but that the entire world must be ruled by shari'a law.

Personally, I don't think that's much different from the philosophy that birthed the christian theocratic Dark Ages, and islam is at that same awkward age. In Hitchens's favor, I will say that the prospect of nukes in the hands of theocratic warriors is a good bit more daunting than were trebuchets, but I sense some unexplored issues behind his pro-Bush position.

I swear I already said this, but I can't find it, so here it is again:

I recall he said that all religions are wrong for the same reasons. His point about Islam being unique had to do with the fact that there is no supreme human leader like the Pope that can say "We were wrong, let's all give the Jews a big hug!". Sort of like how Mormon Prophets can say "Gee, all that stuff about black folks bearing the mark of Cain, well, God just told ME he was kidding! Come on in here, you African-American brothers, and commence oppressing your wimmenfolk!"

I think someone made the point that Islam is where Christianity was 700 years ago, and that's when Hitchens pointed out the lack of an Islamopope as a reason to Be Very Afraid. Direct quote: "If you don't believe me [that Islam is dangerous] just wait a few years."
 
They Call Me the Wanderer

(1) Typical Moveon member? How in Odin's name do you know that? Answer: You don't. You're just making inferences that suit your wandering position.


Let's see, now. The members who created the Bush-as-Hitler ads were echoing a sentiment that remains popular in far-left circles. That would make them atypical because...? I think at least some of us have noticed whose position has wandered.


(2) As best I recollect, yes, every submission was on Moveon's site.


Really? All of them?



(3) Opinion from Worldnet Daily -- a biased, agenda-driven source, is useless to an extreme. If you wish to make a case about Moveon or Soros, you need to quote the words of Moveon or Soros.

What a load of evasive nonsense. If there are quotes from Soros in the article that make your point, quote them here.


Yes, your attempted rebuttal is certainly evasive nonsense. I deliberately chose to quote Worldnet Daily to see if you would latch on to that bogeyman to evade the substance of my argument. You did not disappoint. What if I hadn't mentioned Worldnet Daily and simply pointed out that Soros compared Bush to Hitler in a Washington Post interview? Jack Rosen's quote appeared in the Wall Street Journal--another "biased, agenda-driven source," no doubt. We agree, then, that Worldnet Daily is irrelevant to this discussion.



I would appreciate it if you would desist with the indirection and array all of the quotes from Soros that you think make the case that he has a practice of comparing Bush to Hitler. Anything less I will consider evasive and dishonest.



The article I linked to examines what Soros wrote in his book--as you know. Evasive and dishonest, indeed.





Exaggerating? To say the least. Those were the first two paragraphs -- the very premise -- of her absurd straw heap. She engages in the same type of mindless blather that you so vociferously (and disjointedly) object to when it comes from the left. Yet you hold it up as a shining example when it comes from the right.


Much huffing and puffing to say that Bruce is exaggerating slightly. Moveon has no problem with comparisons of Bush to Hitler. It has a problem with being exposed as a watering hole for kooks and crackpots.
 
His point about Islam being unique had to do with the fact that there is no supreme human leader like the Pope that can say "We were wrong, let's all give the Jews a big hug!".

There are hundreds of christian sects, the majority of which do not have a hierarchy which includes a supreme leader who is considered infallible on matters of faith and morals. AFAIK, judaism is similarly structured. This argument is an extremely poor one, and it shows why people like me continue to "misinterpret" his position as one that lumps all muslims together into an indistinguishable mass of 'eathen wogs.

Direct quote: "If you don't believe me [that Islam is dangerous] just wait a few years."
"The arabs are coming! The arabs are coming! We must run and tell the king!"
 

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