Annoying creationists

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Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
I do not take credit for this math. This is the mathematics of devout evolutionarian Dr Tom Schneider at the National Cancer Institute. He is the author of the peer reviewed and published model of random point mutations and natural selection. Your very own moderator on this forum, Paul Anagnostopoulos, wrote the online java version of this computer simulation. Paul used to call this computer simulation realistic until close scrutiny revealed it produces data that shows the theory of evolution is mathematically impossible by random point mutations and natural selection.
Kleinman said:


So, I take no credit for the formulation of this evolutionarian mathematical model. I only plugged in realistic values in the model and out popped the results. I do like co-opting evolutionarian ideas though, the problem is there are so few worth co-opting.
scatequate said:
Why don't you just have the word "liar" tattooed on your forehead and have done with it?

It would save a lot of time.

I keep telling you scatequate, I find the truth a much better way to annoy you. Did you read any of those links that you posted? I doubt it. Your post of those URLs was an example of sloppy, lazy evolutionarian analysis.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
So you have proved that you can plug “de novo” and “RNA” into google. Too bad that none of these links have anything to do with the de novo evolution of a gene.
Kleinman said:
scatequate said:
Hello? These are examples of entire replicating environmentally adapted genomes being produced de novo.

All right scatequate. If you are willing to take your nose out of your diaper long enough to analyze one of your links let’s go through the one that you believe best makes your point. Choose the link and point out where it shows the evolution of a gene de novo. Otherwise, stick with posting gifs and jpegs to make your arguments.
 
A continuous, repetitive signal e.g. sine wave, square wave (...010101...), night/day etc. transmits no information. For most intents and purposes they can be considered infinite energy sources. They are therefore classed as power (energy per unit time) signals.

I suppose clouds and other atmospheric disturbances, along with variations in the earths rotation would randomly modulate the signal, but how you could reasonably tie that into evolution, other than providing the energy for chemical reactions to take place, I have no idea.

Some time ago, while I was searching for sex (and philosophy) on the internet, I read a few sections of Johns work and got the impression his theory is more about social psychology than evolution.

Or are you going for a "grand theory of everything" theory of life?

I have a hard time following it. I think it might be a theory like Dawkins' memes (which Hewitt contends is rubbish--saying that it's not "scientific" and that "memes don't exist"). He has an odd way of wording things so that what he says could sort of be true, but they really just add less clarity, and you can't pin him down, and he avoids questions that attempt to do so while accusing scientists, in general, of being cheaters and unethical, and unqualified to judge evolution because of an "infinite egress"--? I'm pretty sure he's just a creationist--his attacks upon evolution, scientists, and Dawkins without any clarity as to why he thinks these subjects have blatant flaws makes me even more certain along with the inability for anyone to cogently explain his theory. The more I read him, the more confused I am. Certainly, clarity in communication is not his strong point. But because he does know some science, he does impress some people--they presume they can't understand what he's saying because it's "beyond" them. I contend that no-one can really understand what he's saying or how his theories differ from or are better than what we have. I can't even figure out his real problem with evolution except that he thinks cells should be considered the true replicators rather than DNA/RNA for reasons similar to those in Behe's Black Box and that we should think in terms of Data streams and oscillations encoding information rather than genes... or something like that. He clearly states that his theory could be tested, but then seems to say it can't be falsified and that, regardless, no test would make him conclude that evolutionary theory wasn't flawed.--at least I think that's what he said.

He believes that scientists are ignoring his theory because they are overly focused on evolution and abiogenesis and their own confirmation bias--but I think people are ignoring his theory because it doesn't make cogent sense and is hardly a recipe for furthering understanding.
 
A further look at your bio, John paints a rather bitter picture of someone with impressive credentials who changed at some point in his life.

I've had experiences with people lying about me at work. It can be quite a bizarre experience. And there are always researchers here and there who fake their work or steal credit for someone else's. But I have a hard time buying it to be as widespread as your paper implies. What makes that field so problematic?

I am not sure how to reply to this. Much of "A Habit of Lies" just reports the facts. I never had any doubt that my work was correct because, in physical and evolutionary respects it made more sense than the alternatives. Nonetheless I don't deny other people the right to a viewpoint, my objection is to ignoring alternatives, not to disagreeing with them. The lie is not disagreeing with my work, it is the act of reporting two theories despite the knowledge that three have been published.

I went into science as somebody who believes in rational scientific method and I was shocked at some of the behaviours I saw, which are just deceit - the instance I describe is not the only instance I have seen. I was shocked also at the refusal of the scientific authorities to address such matters. There is a book called "A Rum Affair" by Karl Sabbagh about John Heslop Harrison (HH), a well known Professor in the mid 20th century at, I think, at Newcastle University. He was a powerful and well connected scientist and he was a liar. The greater part of his scientific output consisted of fabricated observations and fabricated interpretations. Not only that, but his behaviour was known to the scientific hierarchy during his later career. A private report was commissioned, from a Cambridge don, Simon Raven. It documented the evidence against HH. The report was then lodged in Trinity College library and no action was taken.

Behaviour like this, both the frauds and the cover up are much more common than you are acknowledging and it is continuing today. In the case of "A Habit of Lies," I can show that scientists in Cambridge and elsewhere have falsely reported their field, I can show that their departments and institutes know about these fabrications and refuse to act. I can show the same of journals - notably "Nature" and "Science" - basically, just the same behaviour as 40 years before.

Let me be clear - fraud is a crime and scientific fraud is not a victimless crime. I find it bizarre that you, and others like you, choose to comment on the anger of the victim of fraud but do not comment on the fraud. Victims of are entitled to express their anger at such behaviour and I make no apology for writing "A Habit of Lies," in part as an expression of my own, righteous anger. However, "A Habit of Lies" is more than just anger. It is in the interests of the entire scientific community, the entire community, that scientific frauds should be corrected. "A Habit of Lies" remains the only correction of the frauds to which I refer.

My subsequent work arose from "A Habit of Lies," particularly from Popper's evolutionary approach to scientific method. I think it is an interesting piece of work; indeed, I think bioepistemic evolution and its applications have proven to the most interesting pieces of scientific work I have ever done. However I do not intend to forget its roots. I am not willing, in my presentation of it, to wipe the slate clean and posture as if everything in science is rosy.

Now, as when I worked in science, there is far too much institutionally validated deception calling itself science. There is far too much shallow rubbish masquerading as deep thought, imposed from above and immunized from any criticism. I, at least as much as anyone else, have both the right and the expertise needed to point those things out.
 
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Kleinman are you ever going to educate me as to how your theory of Jesus selection works or what? Inquiring minds need to know. When can we catch Jesus in the act of creating a new gene?
 
For the "love of god", Kleinman, you quoted articullet repeatedly...I am articulett (one 1 L; 2 ts)--but those are not my quotes; I think they are skeptic girl's.

At least rant at the right person. I've stopped talking to you. Skeptic girl may be your only audience member at this point, so at least get the person you are addressing correct. You are tiresome, and there a few left who are willing to entertain your clap trap, deception, hubris, creationist mumbo-jumbo, and mathematical formulae for disproving that which hardly needs mathematical forumulae to substantiate in the first place--because we can SEE what you are trying to prove cannot be. All your formula do is make evolution unlikely in your own head so you can insert your "intelligent designer". Go back to your hole.

I'm through being your advocate. Like Dr. Adequate, I am now convinced you are a purposeful liar...not a poor, deceived believer lied to by his preacher man. I guess your intelligent designer likes them arrogant, deceitful, and ignorant. Creationist thinking evolves much slower than average.
 
All right scatequate. If you are willing to take your nose out of your diaper long enough to analyze one of your links let’s go through the one that you believe best makes your point. Choose the link and point out where it shows the evolution of a gene de novo. Otherwise, stick with posting gifs and jpegs to make your arguments.

Hello? Earth to stupid guy, can you hear me?

Hello? These are examples of entire replicating environmentally adapted genomes being produced de novo.

Which part of that did you not understand?

Hello?
 
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3. Why would a scientist be posting at a known creationists site to complain about scientists exhibiting "groupthink"?
See, here you go again. Firing off rounds, even though your gun is only half-cocked.

John didn't post that! I explained that the post was made by an Australian.

Thanks, however, for proving beyond any shadow of doubt that you read half of something, decide "creationist" and jump on in.

Good work.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
All right scatequate. If you are willing to take your nose out of your diaper long enough to analyze one of your links let’s go through the one that you believe best makes your point. Choose the link and point out where it shows the evolution of a gene de novo. Otherwise, stick with posting gifs and jpegs to make your arguments.
Kleinman said:
scatequate said:
Hello? Earth to stupid guy, can you hear me?

You don’t have the math to argue with, you don’t have the science to argue with and you don’t have the data to argue with. Speculationitis, denialophilia, hyperextraplopia, and amathematica sciencea, scatequate, you fit the diagnostic criteria.
Kleinman said:
Hello? These are examples of entire replicating environmentally adapted genomes being produced de novo.
scatequate said:
Which part of that did you not understand?

Hello?

I always understand you whining. You either want your bottle or have your diaper changed.
scatequate as a censor said:
I find the truth drooling out halfwitted lies a much better way to annoy you humiliate myself in public.
scatequate as a censor said:
scatequate said:
Fixed that for ya.

I can tell when I have hit the target, the whining level goes up a few decibels.

Paul, you should have warned me how wise the evolutionarians are on the James Randi Educational Forum before you invited me to discuss ev here.

You still don’t have a selective mechanism to evolve a gene de novo. You don’t have an explanation for what the components of the DNA replicase system were doing before DNA could be replicated and Dr Schneider’s and Paul’s computer model refutes your own theory. So you evolutionarians do what you are good at, speculate, deny, extrapolate and ignore mathematics for your theory, it only shows the impossibility.
 
You think I would speculate about the length of genomes in living creatures, how could I be so unscientific? You are dreaming if you think that Unnamed’s selection mechanism has any relationship with reality, of course that makes it perfect for your theory of evolution.

You keep referring to me as being an adherent to the modern theory of evolution. I don't actually subscribe to that theory, so please don't include me in that group.

My theory is: that no matter how improbable any particular event may be, that if the event is at all possible, then given enough time, the event will absolutely occur -- if not in this universe, then in some other.

Thus, we are all here to argue about our evolution, because no matter how unlikely it might seem in retrospect, it is nevertheless possible, therefore it absolutely occured -- and our existence is proof.

Nutty, huh?
 

You don’t have the math to argue with, you don’t have the science to argue with and you don’t have the data to argue with. Speculationitis, denialophilia, hyperextraplopia, and amathematica sciencea, scatequate, you fit the diagnostic criteria.

I always understand you whining. You either want your bottle or have your diaper changed.

I can tell when I have hit the target, the whining level goes up a few decibels.

Paul, you should have warned me how wise the evolutionarians are on the James Randi Educational Forum before you invited me to discuss ev here.

You still don’t have a selective mechanism to evolve a gene de novo. You don’t have an explanation for what the components of the DNA replicase system were doing before DNA could be replicated and Dr Schneider’s and Paul’s computer model refutes your own theory. So you evolutionarians do what you are good at, speculate, deny, extrapolate and ignore mathematics for your theory, it only shows the impossibility.
The parts of that which meant anything were lies. Most of it just appears to be lunatic ranting, though.
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
You think I would speculate about the length of genomes in living creatures, how could I be so unscientific? You are dreaming if you think that Unnamed’s selection mechanism has any relationship with reality, of course that makes it perfect for your theory of evolution.
kjkent1 said:
You keep referring to me as being an adherent to the modern theory of evolution. I don't actually subscribe to that theory, so please don't include me in that group.

My theory is: that no matter how improbable any particular event may be, that if the event is at all possible, then given enough time, the event will absolutely occur -- if not in this universe, then in some other.
The crucial part of your statement is “given enough time”. Without a selection process to accelerate the random mutation process you don’t have enough time. Even with Dr Schneider’s contrived selection process, it reveals how slow random point mutations and natural selection is for accumulating information. The evolutionarians on this site are slow to understand this principle but I am patient. This does not represent a minor gap in the theory of evolution, this goes to the core of the theory. Notice how the evolutionarians that inhabit this site are not willing to address this issue. I read all the links that scatequate posted and not one addresses the issue of a selection process for evolving a gene de novo.
kjkent1 said:
Thus, we are all here to argue about our evolution, because no matter how unlikely it might seem in retrospect, it is nevertheless possible, therefore it absolutely occured -- and our existence is proof.

Nutty, huh?
Not necessarily nutty but it doesn’t qualify as a scientific proof. I can just as easily say that our existence is proof of creationism but I don’t because I don’t believe this qualifies as a scientific proof. Instead, I have examined the mathematics that have been developed to support the theory of evolution and it reveals the books don’t balance. In addition, mathematics constrains the debate from too much speculation and hand waving. Without mathematics, the theory of evolution has become a collection of speculations and contorted interpretations and extrapolations of observations. What is nutty is calling the theory of evolution science.

Scatequate seems to have mastered the selection process for evolving a new gene de novo but doesn’t want to tell Paul or Dr Schneider how to mathematically model this process and correct ev’s deficiency. I guess his PhD in scatematics is failing him.
 

The crucial part of your statement is “given enough time”. Without a selection process to accelerate the random mutation process you don’t have enough time. Even with Dr Schneider’s contrived selection process, it reveals how slow random point mutations and natural selection is for accumulating information. The evolutionarians on this site are slow to understand this principle but I am patient. This does not represent a minor gap in the theory of evolution, this goes to the core of the theory. Notice how the evolutionarians that inhabit this site are not willing to address this issue. I read all the links that scatequate posted and not one addresses the issue of a selection process for evolving a gene de novo.

Not necessarily nutty but it doesn’t qualify as a scientific proof. I can just as easily say that our existence is proof of creationism but I don’t because I don’t believe this qualifies as a scientific proof. Instead, I have examined the mathematics that have been developed to support the theory of evolution and it reveals the books don’t balance. In addition, mathematics constrains the debate from too much speculation and hand waving. Without mathematics, the theory of evolution has become a collection of speculations and contorted interpretations and extrapolations of observations. What is nutty is calling the theory of evolution science.

Scatequate seems to have mastered the selection process for evolving a new gene de novo but doesn’t want to tell Paul or Dr Schneider how to mathematically model this process and correct ev’s deficiency. I guess his PhD in scatematics is failing him.
Reciting halfwitted lies does not make them true. It does, however, make you look like a pitiful, snivelling halfwit trapped in your own fantasy world.

How's that working out for you?
 
Annoying Creationists

Kleinman said:
Scatequate seems to have mastered the selection process for evolving a new gene de novo but doesn’t want to tell Paul or Dr Schneider how to mathematically model this process and correct ev’s deficiency. I guess his PhD in scatematics is failing him.
Kleinman said:
scatequate said:
Reciting halfwitted lies does not make them true. It does, however, make you look like a pitiful, snivelling halfwit trapped in your own fantasy world.

How's that working out for you?

Oh! You mean to say you haven’t mastered the selection process for evolving a gene de novo? Thank you for correcting my error. Somebody check scatequate’s diaper, I think it is time for it to be changed.
 
The crucial part of your statement is “given enough time”. Without a selection process to accelerate the random mutation process you don’t have enough time. Even with Dr Schneider’s contrived selection process, it reveals how slow random point mutations and natural selection is for accumulating information. The evolutionarians on this site are slow to understand this principle but I am patient. This does not represent a minor gap in the theory of evolution, this goes to the core of the theory. Notice how the evolutionarians that inhabit this site are not willing to address this issue. I read all the links that scatequate posted and not one addresses the issue of a selection process for evolving a gene de novo
Not enough time? Why, that's jess' plain silly, Alan. There's more than enough time, because under my definition, where everything that can happen, must happen in one universe or another, the mere probability, however unlikely, that 3 billion base pairs can come together at random to produce the entire human genome, means that the event, will absolutely happen in some universe somewhere.

And, if we're here talkin' about it, then we just happen to inhabit that happy little universe (or, one of those happy universes).

This sort of thinking, bothered Einstein. But, it didn't bother Heisenberg, and it doesn't bother Leonard Susskind -- nor me (not that I'm including myself in that category of elite theoretical physicists).

kleinman said:
I can just as easily say that our existence is proof of creationism but I don’t because I don’t believe this qualifies as a scientific proof.
No, you can't say that just as easily, because if God/Jesus is limitless, then he is unmeasurable by any scientific process, and therefore impossible. And, if God is impossible, then no matter how much time, probability or universes are available, God ain't gonna happen -- under my theory, that is.


Humans, however, are an absolutel certainty.
 
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Hammegk said:
Nothing was said about "my" thought ... or "your" thought, either. But *I* think *you* knew that.
But "my thought" is implied, because you can't be certain about anyone else's thoughts at all. That's why you used to say "*I* think." Now you could admit that you acknowledge something exists that is over and above your thoughts, but you don't know that that thing is thought, because you don't experience it.

~~ Paul
 
Perhaps when Kleinman says "evolve a gene de novo," he really means "evolve a gene ex nihilo." Is he talking about the evolution of the very first gene? Maybe that's why he keeps mentioning gyrase and helicase.

It's an appeal to ignorance, Alan. By the way, DNA helicase IV can unwind both DNA and RNA.

Kleinman said:
If you study Dr Schneider’s ev model, you will see that random point mutations and natural selection is profoundly slow, too slow to account for the evolution of anything on a realistic size genome with a realistic mutation rate. This occurs even with Dr Schneider’s unrealistic selection process.
Alan, give it up, man. You're saying "I'm using Ev to prove that TPMNS is too slow, even though Ev doesn't use a realistic selection process." It just sounds plain dumb.

~~ Paul
 
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But "my thought" is implied, because you can't be certain about anyone else's thoughts at all. That's why you used to say "*I* think." Now you could admit that you acknowledge something exists that is over and above your thoughts, but you don't know that that thing is thought, because you don't experience it.
Sorry. Those statements don't compute, or dare I say ... are ill-behaved.;)

Guess again. :)
 
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