"Evolution isn't science"

You know, this thread is fun up to a point. It is, after all, a blast to argue with (and demolish) creationists. But soon it becomes depressing to me, when I realize that despite all reasoned, rational argument, and against all evidence, the creationist is simply immune to education, and nothing we can do or say will change his mind. Our words bounce off his skull, leaving no imprint and making no mark. His ignorance is destined to persist, despite our best efforts.

You never know. We could be planting a small seed of doubt that might take ten years or so to come to fruition.

That's the funny thing about stuff that makes sense -- it tends to nag at you in the back of your mind, despite all efforts to ignore it.
 
I think the problem with this thread, and part of the reason it's not going to convince JF of anything, might just be that there are too many skeptics on it. That sounds strange, I'm sure, but consider this- Jesus_Freak hasn't posted in nine hours, even though he's the only creationist here, and there've been some forty posts demolishing him.

Almost everyone here is "attacking" him on some front- whether it's one poster pointing out contradictions in the Bible, another discussing tree rings, another speciation, another Noah, another carbon dating... And everyone's asking him "Why haven't you responded to my criticism?" Well, to be fair, even if the evidence WERE on his side, it would take hours for him to respond to everyone on this forum.

Who here could take on a group of twenty-odd creationists and respond to all of their arguments? We're actually doing something typical of creationists, actually- instead of explaining the strength of evolution, we're attacking inconsistencies in his argument. Creationists usually throw loads of specific questions about evolution ("How do you explain this and this... the second law of thermodynamics says... no transitional... random fluctuations...). Every individual argument can be addressed, but the entire debate will look like it favors the creationists, simply because they're saying the most and there's no way for the skeptic to respond to them all.

I'm not supporting Jesus_Freak's arguments or position. However, IMHO, the skeptics are inundating the thread so much that any real discussion is impossible. Note that I'm not blaming any individual forum member- all the skeptics on this forum are extremely well informed and make powerful and evidence-based arguments. However, I think if we stopped pursuing so many seperate topics in our argument, we might actually be able to get somewhere with JF (I'm an optimist, I guess).

Skeptics should always try to level the playing field. When the facts are on your side, you don't need the advantage of numbers.
 
Genesis 6:15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.

Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

Gensis 7:20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.

Apparently there were mountains before the flood. However they must not have been very tall. I don't know how long a cubit is, but the ark 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits tall while the water was only 15 cubits deep. Does anyone know how long a cubit is?
 
Apparently there were mountains before the flood. However they must not have been very tall. I don't know how long a cubit is, but the ark 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits tall while the water was only 15 cubits deep. Does anyone know how long a cubit is?

45.72 centimeters. Google is your friend.

That gives 137.16 m long, 22.86 m wide, and 13.72 m tall. The water would be 6.86 m deep.
 
I think the problem with this thread, and part of the reason it's not going to convince JF of anything, might just be that there are too many skeptics on it. That sounds strange, I'm sure, but consider this- Jesus_Freak hasn't posted in nine hours, even though he's the only creationist here, and there've been some forty posts demolishing him.

Almost everyone here is "attacking" him on some front- whether it's one poster pointing out contradictions in the Bible, another discussing tree rings, another speciation, another Noah, another carbon dating... And everyone's asking him "Why haven't you responded to my criticism?" Well, to be fair, even if the evidence WERE on his side, it would take hours for him to respond to everyone on this forum.

Who here could take on a group of twenty-odd creationists and respond to all of their arguments? We're actually doing something typical of creationists, actually- instead of explaining the strength of evolution, we're attacking inconsistencies in his argument. Creationists usually throw loads of specific questions about evolution ("How do you explain this and this... the second law of thermodynamics says... no transitional... random fluctuations...). Every individual argument can be addressed, but the entire debate will look like it favors the creationists, simply because they're saying the most and there's no way for the skeptic to respond to them all.

I'm not supporting Jesus_Freak's arguments or position. However, IMHO, the skeptics are inundating the thread so much that any real discussion is impossible. Note that I'm not blaming any individual forum member- all the skeptics on this forum are extremely well informed and make powerful and evidence-based arguments. However, I think if we stopped pursuing so many seperate topics in our argument, we might actually be able to get somewhere with JF (I'm an optimist, I guess).

Skeptics should always try to level the playing field. When the facts are on your side, you don't need the advantage of numbers
thank you! I tried to say that earlier but then I was demanding this to go my way maybe they will listen to you.

Does anyone know how long a cubit is/
The distance from your elbow to the tip of your fingers...if Noah was twelve feet tall his cubit would be bigger than ours.
 
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Also an Alaskan rabbit can mate with a Minnesota rabbit and a Minnesota rabbit can mate with a Florida rabbit but an Alaskan rabbit can not mate with a florida rabbit...does that help your puppy theory?
 
But that would only be a meaningful form of accuracy if we still have the orignal understanding of the languages involved. Quite a bit of doubt about that.

Ok. Fair enough.
How about "as accurate as you can get, givin the circumstances"?

I do understand the problem with reading ancient texts. Issues like vernacular, word usage, metaphors, euphamisims, slang, etc., all of which would mean that interpretatation and translation would be questionable at best.
I'm semi-bilingual (which means I know enough of another language to get my breakfast in the morning) so I know the issues of translation.

Our buddy Jesus freak sounds like a recent convert so some of the realtities of bible interpretation has not sunk in yet.
 
thank you! I tried to say that earlier but then I was demanding this to go my way maybe they will listen to you.

Does anyone know how long a cubit is
The distance from your elbow to the tip of your fingers...if Noah was twelve feet tall his cubit would be bigger than ours.
Main Entry: cu·bit
Pronunciation: 'kyü-b&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin cubitum elbow, cubit
: any of various ancient units of length based on the length of the forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger and usually equal to about 18 inches (46 centimeters)
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/cubit

Cubit is the name for any one of many units of measure used by various ancient peoples and is among the first recorded units of length. The Cubit is possibly based on the forearm length of an average person, and the Egyptian hieroglyph for the unit shows this symbol. It was employed consistently for measuring products like timber, stone, cords and textiles through Antiquity, the Middle-Ages up to the Early Modern Times. The earliest known cubit is the Egyptian cubit of 28 digits (523/4mm, 20.6"), and other cubit measures, often divided into 24 digits, or 6 palms of 4 digits are known from Antiquity.
Over time, units similar in type to the cubit have measured:
  • 6 palms, ~53.3 cm, or 21 inches (1.75 ft)
  • 7 palms, ~52.5 cm, or 21 inches (1.75 ft)
  • 8 palms, ~60 cm, or 24 inches (2.00 ft)
  • 9 palms, ~67.5 cm, or 27 inches (2.25 ft)
From late Antiquity, a Roman cubit of 16 palms, which is about 120 cm, was also used. This length is the measure from a man's hip to the fingers of the outstretched opposite arm. Since the ulna is approximately 1/4 of this length (30 cm or 12 inches), this Roman cubit was considered highly practical for quickly measuring textiles or cords over the elbow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

Also an Alaskan rabbit can mate with a Minnesota rabbit and a Minnesota rabbit can mate with a Florida rabbit but an Alaskan rabbit can not mate with a florida rabbit
<snip>
Evidence?
 
Genesis 9:28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 29 So all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years; and he died.

I just wanted to add this correction to my earlier posts. Noah lived longer than Adam.
 
thank you! I tried to say that earlier but then I was demanding this to go my way maybe they will listen to you.

Prolly not. Skeptics or no, we're still humans, with our own POVs that we think are the most important. :D

JF, what I think you'll find/have found is that many of the questions/comments are variations on a theme. Try to answer the spirit of the questions as well you can.

Also, try to keep to the origional suggestion. Use facts, not opinion (or at lest limit the use of opinion), or Biblical quotations and that will help to limit the excursions. The Bible is not a good primary source for any thing that will be brought up here. It's not even a good secondary source. Please, please, please stop citing it. You will only fuel the barrage of questions.

If the Bible is your only authority, then you may want to take this elsewhere. It's a well-trod road that too many of us tire of.

Does anyone know how long a cubit is
The distance from your elbow to the tip of your fingers...if Noah was twelve feet tall his cubit would be bigger than ours.
"Yeah, riiiight."
 
thank you! I tried to say that earlier but then I was demanding this to go my way maybe they will listen to you.

That's reasonable. Now let's talk about evolution.

No one ever said that horses evolved into rabbits. However, lets go to a more recent occurence- if you believe that it's possible for horses to evolve into donkeys, do you believe that it's possible for apes to evolve into humans? (There's an incredible amount of DNA evidence that supports their similarity).

I know it's hard to accept, and for the time being I'm not asking you to agree that this is what HAPPENED, but is it possible for you to accept that it could have happened through mutations and natural selection?
 
Ok. Fair enough.
How about "as accurate as you can get, givin the circumstances"?
Yeah, I think it's simply inevitable, with all old documents, that much of the original meaning is lost and much of the current meaning wasn't originally intended.
 
Also an Alaskan rabbit can mate with a Minnesota rabbit and a Minnesota rabbit can mate with a Florida rabbit but an Alaskan rabbit can not mate with a florida rabbit...does that help your puppy theory?

It doesn't really "help" anything, it's just consistent with the theory of Evolution, as all observations in biology are.
 
Jesus Freak: I read the first couple of paragraphs from your link and found two lies. Not a very good start.

No one cites living in caves as evidence of evolution. And no one thinks we've stopped evolving. We clearly are still mutating.
 
JF: And now I've finished the whole link. Not one accurate statement in the whole link. Amazing. Good job of lying.
 

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