Its all religion's fault...

Certain people in religion, like the priests in the Spanish Inquisition, did to harm to other people in the name of religion, they did hunt down heretics in the name of God. :( :( :( :whine: :( :( . And sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church.

I agree with your point about religion being used as a pretext for other things. But in fairness, the Spanish Inquisition was ultimately controlled by the Spanish throne, and for virtually all of its existence conducted its activities over the protests of Rome.
 
success has many fathers but failure is an orphan - Churchill
 
I agree with your point about religion being used as a pretext for other things. But in fairness, the Spanish Inquisition was ultimately controlled by the Spanish throne, and for virtually all of its existence conducted its activities over the protests of Rome.
My brain just sprained itself. Torquemada was a free agent? The Pope didn't endorse the Inquisition, or actively opposed it? Or, it was a distasteful task to his benefit that he didn't mind blaming someone else for?

DR
 
My brain just sprained itself. Torquemada was a free agent? The Pope didn't endorse the Inquisition, or actively opposed it? Or, it was a distasteful task to his benefit that he didn't mind blaming someone else for?

DR

The Grand Inquisition was* an agency of the Papal States and the Catholic Church, and there have been times when it has been, to understate the case, "less than benign." But the Spaniards (especially the royals and the bishops) had always considered themselves to be "more Catholic than the Pope," and the Spanish Inquisition, like much of Spanish Catholicism, was extremist and barely related to their mainstream counterparts.

The heads of the Spanish Inquisition (Torquemada and his predecessors and successors) were not "free agents" in that it might have been possible for them to have been reigned in by the kings of Spain, to whom they held their primary allegience, but they had no more love for the Pope than they had for infidels, Jews, and heretics. Some of them are believed to have tried to sabotage Vatican politics with the ultimate aim of raising a Spanish Inquisitor to the Papal throne and thus co-opting the entire church. A few may have even consisered the feasability of a military coup

*It still is, though it has long since changed its name. The current Pope Benedict resigned as Grand Inquisitor (or, to use the more modern title, "Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith") in order to accept the Papacy.
 
Sorry, but...

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 

Attachments

  • SpanishOrig3.jpg
    SpanishOrig3.jpg
    25.2 KB · Views: 100
My brain just sprained itself. Torquemada was a free agent? The Pope didn't endorse the Inquisition, or actively opposed it? Or, it was a distasteful task to his benefit that he didn't mind blaming someone else for?

DR

Torquemada was, from the time he took charge of the Inquisition (by Inquisition here I mean the Spanish one unless otherwise specified), mostly an agent of King Ferdinand. Pope Sixtus IV sanctioned the creation of the Inquisition at the petition of the king and queen, and its juridical status was recognized by subsequent popes. However, Rome refused to recognize the Inquisition's governing council, the Suprema - a state body of royal appointees whose head held the title of "Grand Inquisitor" (Torquemada was the first to preside over the Suprema).

Sixtus IV realized almost immediately that he had made a mistake by consenting to Ferdinand's pet project, but he was unable to do much about it. He and his successors tried frequently over the years, by bulls and various other tactics, to put a stop to the Inquisition's practices, to reform it, to take control of it, to shut parts of it down - but the monarchs either laughed it off or bullied the papacy into backing away.

It's hard to imagine a pope thinking of the Spanish Inquisition as being secretly to his benefit. After all, it was always operated for the benefit of royal power, and any pope of the period could see that whatever was good for Ferdinand, Charles, and company was generally bad for the papacy. The Spanish Inquisition was almost universally unappreciated outside Spain - and Rome was no exception.
 
Last edited:
Deuteronomy 13 seems relevant here:
==excerpt==
Proselytizing for false gods is to be punished by death.

What about proselytizing for real, other gods, such as the one that turned the Pharoah's two sticks into snakes, or the great chaos (water) dragon Leviathan, mentioned in Psalms?
 
What about proselytizing for real, other gods, such as the one that turned the Pharoah's two sticks into snakes, or the great chaos (water) dragon Leviathan, mentioned in Psalms?

Does the Bible suggest that those are other gods?
 
I thought I'd leave this thread alone for awhile, let arguments and positions develop on their own, before jumping back in.

There seems to be general agreement that "division" is a cause of conflict. The core difference seems to be in attitudes as to whether religion creates more division, or greater justification for division, than other ideologies.

One of the difficulties in this debate is the lack of historical precedent in regards to non-religious societies. There are plentiful examples of religious societies, from which one can readily pick and choose to give examples of how religious people created "divisions", and then used those as a justification for abuse.

But what about non-religious, atheist societies? One could raise Communist countries, but the moment you do that, atheists start screaming "That doesn't represent atheism!" (ironically, they ignore the fact that many of the examples they cite against religion don't represent all religions, either, but rather a small portion).

I guess some of you have a more optimistic view of humanity in general than I do. You feel comforted by being able to blame some external cause (such as religion), rather than simply blaming our own basic human nature. This theme has been picked up a number of times in various posts here -- the idea that atheists would somehow have some sort greater immunity to this kind of thinking than theists do, that an atheistic society would be less prone to these abuses.

I myself can see no justification whatsoever for such a belief. Quite the opposite. Religion has simply served as a convenient and ready excuse for people to create divisions, and to harm others. Take away that excuse, and I guarantee that in no time at all, we will find other excuses. We don't even need to create those divisions, we already have them -- race, political beliefs, gender, nationality, etc. -- we just need to shift our arguments slightly.

Perhaps it is my background as once being a very dedicated and devout Christian. I argued -- and my friends argued -- the moral superiority of our position from a position of absolute belief that it was superior, that because of our beliefs we could avoid the abuses committed by so many others (both in the name of Christianity, and in the name of any other excuse you could want to come up with).

It was only after I became an atheist that I recognized the naivety of that opinion.

Imagine my shock, then, when I found so many atheists making exactly the same argument. Oh, they may not say it directly -- although many do -- but there is this implicit assumption in so many of these arguments that atheism (or the lack of theism) will result in a society that is less prone to commit these abuses, and to create these divisions.

Regardless of whether you call yourself a theist, or an atheist, I believe that the greatest potential danger to any society is the complacent, naive belief that you are somehow less prone to the mistakes, biases, and errors of your forebears.

It is, in the end, impossible to draw a definitive, quantitative conclusion in this matter. But from looking at the vast scope of human history, and the tremendous evils that have been committed not just in the name of religion, but in the name of power, nationalism, racism, etc., I think it is far, far better to begin with the assumption that we are every bit as capable and as likely as a society to commit those same actions, regardless of whether we are theist or atheist, and seek to guard against them.
 
A few points.

First, an atheist society does not necessarily mean a skeptical society. I’d argue that a society which values science, skepticism, reason, etc. would be more inclined to deal with its natural conflicts better. Proof? I haven’t any. However, for all the controversies and bitterness that can develop between competing academic institutions, the thought of one group of genetic scientists taking up arms against another such group over a difference of data interpretation is laughable. Not so with differing religious sects.

Second, your assumption seems to be that this sort of group conflict is innate to human nature. I think there is a component, possibly the principle component, which is learned. Children don’t grow up prejudiced, they learn it from their parents and family, mostly. I expect there’s tons of research on this, but I’m too lazy to look (how’s that for a cop-out).

Now, religion is one of the few vehicles whereby prejudice is actively taught. It’s inculcated into children from a very young age, and into adults by peer pressure and other techniques. Religion has quite mastered these procedures, and passes them from generation to generation. We’re not just talking a set of beliefs, mind you, but a way of thinking -- a mindset. There are several means of transmitting prejudicial mindsets in socially acceptable ways, but the supply of those which can produce extremism is not infinite. To lose one is to make real progress. They are all, in a way, flaws of reason. It would follow, then, that any society which valued reason, inculcated its youth into the rational mindset, and punished the irrational in one way or another would be a society most able to handle its conflicts, and least inclined toward extremism.

If religion could exist in society in a state of peaceful moderation, I’d have no qualms. But it too easily leads to extremism in too many cases -- at the drop of a hat, it seems. To lose religion -- or better -- to have a society where reason dominates it, is to have a healthier society.

My two bits.

Regardless of whether you call yourself a theist, or an atheist, I believe that the greatest potential danger to any society is the complacent, naive belief that you are somehow less prone to the mistakes, biases, and errors of your forebears.
Agreed.
 
To lose religion -- or better -- to have a society where reason dominates it, is to have a healthier society.

I think the question is whether such a society can exist if its members are real people. Can human beings, as we exist today, come together and form a society where reason dominates?

With or without religion, we haven't done it yet.
 
A few points.

First, an atheist society does not necessarily mean a skeptical society. I’d argue that a society which values science, skepticism, reason, etc. would be more inclined to deal with its natural conflicts better. Proof? I haven’t any. However, for all the controversies and bitterness that can develop between competing academic institutions, the thought of one group of genetic scientists taking up arms against another such group over a difference of data interpretation is laughable. Not so with differing religious sects.
I'd agree perhaps in principle; but in fact, I don't believe such a society will ever be achieved. Skepticism means exercising a conscious effort to question and challenge those beliefs that are presented to you; and while there are some people who do this, there are a vast majority of people who simply cannot be bothered to figure things out for themselves. They want to have someone tell them what is right, or what is wrong. This can be a religious leader, a political leader, a scientist, whatever. But it remains that, as I argued before, there will always be those who will seek power, and there will always be those who are more than willing to follow such people unquestioningly. Look at how many people we have today given solid, scientific educations, who are taught critical thinking, who turn around and believe that crystals control their moods and that psychics can talk with the dead.

Like yourself, there is no way I can prove this; but I think, based on everything I've seen of human behavior, it is quite a reasonable hypothesis.
Second, your assumption seems to be that this sort of group conflict is innate to human nature. I think there is a component, possibly the principle component, which is learned. Children don’t grow up prejudiced, they learn it from their parents and family, mostly. I expect there’s tons of research on this, but I’m too lazy to look (how’s that for a cop-out).
Children don't grow up prejudiced? That may be true to a certain degree; but there are tons of studies that indicate a basic biological predisposition for certain kinds of preferences (and therefore prejudices). Studies done with infants where they are shown pictures of classically 'attractive' adults, and 'deformed' adults, show that those children consistently show a preference for the 'attractive' ones (attractiveness usually being determined by factors such as facial symmetry, clear skin, etc.). When children are in groups, it is common for them to form cliques, and pick on outsiders (without any training or prompting from adults). While some specific forms of prejudice may need to be learned -- such as that based on religion, politics, etc. -- I think there's fairly clear demonstration that children need nobody to teach them how to discriminate, how to form cliques, how to seek power, how to fight with others, etc. Again, I recognize that there are some who have an idealized view of childhood, a kind of tabula rasa view whereby anything 'evil' is learned from adults. Personally, I've watched tons of children grow up, and while teaching from parents can certainly exacerbate or encourage certain forms of discrimination and prejudice, children need no teaching to be able to do it on their own.
Now, religion is one of the few vehicles whereby prejudice is actively taught. It’s inculcated into children from a very young age, and into adults by peer pressure and other techniques. Religion has quite mastered these procedures, and passes them from generation to generation. We’re not just talking a set of beliefs, mind you, but a way of thinking -- a mindset. There are several means of transmitting prejudicial mindsets in socially acceptable ways, but the supply of those which can produce extremism is not infinite. To lose one is to make real progress. They are all, in a way, flaws of reason. It would follow, then, that any society which valued reason, inculcated its youth into the rational mindset, and punished the irrational in one way or another would be a society most able to handle its conflicts, and least inclined toward extremism.
Sorry, gonna' have to disagree with you on this one entirely. This is the kind of generalization that always irks me, being based on a narrow view of "religion" which takes the abuses of certain groups and extends it to everyone. It is an entirely non-scientific, non-rational argument, based on the very kind of prejudice that you claim that "educated and skeptical" atheists are supposed to be immune to.

Take a religion like "Baha'i". It teaches that all beliefs are equal, that all forms of 'wisdom' lead eventually to the same truth. It believes in a world where unity between all races, religions, etc. will be achieved peacefully. In fact, Baha'i organizations promote peace all over the planet, often by supporting other organizations who are not associated with the Baha'i, and who are not themselves religious. Please tell me how this religion "actively teaches prejudice". (I don't believe in or subscribe to Baha'i beliefs; but don't see in any way how these beliefs "actively teach prejudice").

Martin Luther King was a devout Christian, a man with a passionate belief in god, very much a religious man. He fought -- and died -- for equality. Please tell me how his religious beliefs "actively taught prejudice".

On the flip side, I can point to many atheistic movements who did "actively teach prejudice". What of social Darwinists, who used Darwinian theory to advance a belief that certain races were superior to others?

Yes, there are those who have religious beliefs who use those beliefs to teach/justify prejudice. Just as there are those who are atheists who use those beliefs to teach/justify prejudice. But neither theism nor atheism are implicitly discriminatory; nor is either immune to discrimination.
 
Last edited:
Funny how people will credit religion when it encourages good behavior and peace but will absolutely refuse to blame religion when it starts wars.
 
To be fair and balanced, sure. :)
Ohh witty.
The blame game is zero value added. The purpose behind the desire to blame is more interesting to me than the fact that one can assign blame. To elevate one's self above another, in one's own estimation, is a motive for blame. It may or may not have been yours, but given the environment, I suspected it. (I may be wrong.)

DR

Given the fact that you no nothing, nada, zip , zero, nichts, noll, squat about which creed I abide by.

Say I saw a nice nice jump-to-conclusion-matt in a movie once.
Do you want one?

edit.
Or do you already have one?
 
Funny how people will credit religion when it encourages good behavior and peace but will absolutely refuse to blame religion when it starts wars.
I don't quite understand your comment here at all. Most people here are arguing the opposite, in fact; they blame religion when it starts wars, but refuse to credit religion when it encourages good behavior and peace.

My position is that religion, in and of itself, neither encourages good behavior and peace, nor is a cause of starting wars. And that atheism, in and of itself, neither encourages good behavior and peace, nor is a cause of starting wars.

There are tons of religious people who, motivated by their religious beliefs, have made tremendous sacrifices to make our world a better place, who have taught love, peace, and harmony. And there are tons of religious people who, motivated by their religious beliefs, have committed terrible acts of hatred and intolerance. Neither was implicitly "caused" by religion, but rather by particular interpretations of religious beliefs.

There are tons of athiests who, motivated by belief in such principles as equality and human rights, have made tremendous sacrifices to make our world a better place, who have taught love, peace, and harmony. And there are tons of atheists who, motivated by intolerance, desire for power, or other such things, have committed terrible acts of hatred and intolerance. Neither was implicitly "caused" by atheism, but rather by particular interpretations of religious beliefs.

But I don't think I've seen a single person in this entire debate making the argument that you are trying to discredit.
 
I think the question is whether such a society can exist if its members are real people. Can human beings, as we exist today, come together and form a society where reason dominates?
Not unless we can agree on what "reason" means. To Christians, it means accepting the authority of Christ. To skeptics it means belief based on evidence. To Pagans, it means accepting whatever myth you choose as your standard.

You probably know which one I favor, but I know that people define it different ways, so just saying "dominated by reason" would appeal to everyone, provided it was their variety of "reason".
 
Take a religion like "Baha'i". It teaches that all beliefs are equal....

But all beliefs are not equal. Some are obviously horse crap. Of course, if you are referring to all religious or non-rational beliefs, then you have a point in as much as all of them are equally horsecrap and baseless. Some doctines, however, are a little scarier than others.

"Well, whatever you choose to believe, that's just truth for you and I must respect your beliefs. Even if you belief fathers should stone their daughters to death for being raped....well, I respect your belief. Let's all have a group hug and sing Koom Bye Ya around the campfire..."
 
Last edited:
I don't quite understand your comment here at all. Most people here are arguing the opposite, in fact; they blame religion when it starts wars, but refuse to credit religion when it encourages good behavior and peace.

My position is that religion, in and of itself, neither encourages good behavior and peace, nor is a cause of starting wars. And that atheism, in and of itself, neither encourages good behavior and peace, nor is a cause of starting wars.

You are wrong. Atheism encourages nothing simply because atheism is a state of being.

Religion encourages acts with dogma, preaching and books. Try again.
 
...Regardless of whether you call yourself a theist, or an atheist, I believe that the greatest potential danger to any society is the complacent, naive belief that you are somehow less prone to the mistakes, biases, and errors of your forebears. -wolfman

Certitude though, is the domain of religion and superstition not of science or critical thinking. Doubt and questioning are anathema to one, and essential to the life of the other.

I think a good question to ask of ourselves is 'how do we increase our knowledge?' How do we decide between this or that? Is by reason, or is it by something else?

And if 'truth' is a regulative principle of making right decisions, - it must mean something. If truth is entirely subjective then it has no value and whatever we do is justified by 'human nature'.

And I am not so subjective about 'reason' either. Sure there is a subjective aspect, but also an objective one where reason must function and produce something sort of like an ecosystem. Reason works within certain constraints.
 
Wolfman -- your points are well made. I feel properly chastised for making generalities. I’m not, however, willing to give up on my POV just yet.

Wolfman said:
Skepticism means exercising a conscious effort to question and challenge those beliefs that are presented to you; and while there are some people who do this, there are a vast majority of people who simply cannot be bothered to figure things out for themselves.

True. I would partly blame the education system for not emphasizing skepticism enough, and partly certain facets of society which encourage intellectual laziness -- one of those facets being (most forms of) religion.

Wolfman said:
Look at how many people we have today given solid, scientific educations, who are taught critical thinking, who turn around and believe that crystals control their moods and that psychics can talk with the dead.
According to Sam Harris:
... Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. ...
If only 7% of scientists are crystal believers, that would still be pretty good odds (yes, I’m mixing religious belief with crystal belief, but you see my point, I hope).

Wolfman said:
When children are in groups, it is common for them to form cliques, and pick on outsiders (without any training or prompting from adults).
I’ve no doubt this is true, and sad. I would question, however, whether the behavior of adults really wasn’t an influence. Training or prompting is not the only way to teach kids behaviors -- there is teaching by example. Kids emulate the behaviors around them. Be nice to know if there were studies that have controlled for that, but I personally don’t know of any.

I have heard stories where noticeably deformed kids were excepted by their peers without batting an eyelash. The NPR show Fresh Air recently had an interview with a “poster child” of some disease where this was the case. I imagine we could exchange anecdotes till the cows came home.

Wolfman said:
Sorry, gonna' have to disagree with you on this one entirely. This is the kind of generalization that always irks me, being based on a narrow view of "religion" which takes the abuses of certain groups and extends it to everyone. It is an entirely non-scientific, non-rational argument, based on the very kind of prejudice that you claim that "educated and skeptical" atheists are supposed to be immune to.

I certainly never claimed skeptics and the educated are immune to prejudice. I struggle with prejudice all the time, including prejudice against certain types of religious followers. The difference is, I see much of my prejudice for what it is, and am able at least to try to struggle against it. Do religious people see themselves as prejudiced against other religions or atheists? I wonder.

In any event, I agree there are smallish sects, such as the bha’i (on which I’ll take your word), the Quakers, Unitarians, Zen Buddhists, and I’m sure others which are to be respected and admired on these counts. Also, there are individual religious followers who rise above the nonsense and achieve real greatness. But your point about there being exceptions doesn’t erase the broader tendencies of religious instruction.

One of the goals of both Christians and Muslims is to convert others to their way of thinking. Christians and Muslims make up the vast majority of the world’s religious. Some Christians and Muslims can live with people thinking other than they do. But their scripture tells them to go out and convert. That means that for most religious people, their way of thinking is right, and everyone else’s is wrong. Not just wrong, but going to hell wrong. Not just going to hell wrong, but going to hell forever wrong.

Atheists, of course, think other people are wrong, too. The difference -- there is no demand on the atheist to perform conversion. They might try, but it’s not hammered into them as part and parcel of their atheism. It’s not a life and death cosmic struggle of good against evil. They are not given intense training in the black-and-white mindset that distinguishes so much of religious training.

Wolfman said:
Yes, there are those who have religious beliefs who use those beliefs to teach/justify prejudice. Just as there are those who are atheists who use those beliefs to teach/justify prejudice. But neither theism nor atheism are implicitly discriminatory; nor is either immune to discrimination.

I agree, as humans we all have the burdens of prejudice (learned or innate) to struggle with. I would suggest that some ways of thinking are more amenable to succeeding in that struggle than others. Not all religions and religious people succumb to this, but religious training for most of the population is filled with absolutes (as Kopji pointed out), with good vs. evil, with hellbound vs. heavenbound, and all told I can't see it as the best method for combating prejudice. I suppose we'll call that an opinion.
 

Back
Top Bottom