Killtown vs. 911debunker debate has begun!

Well, it looks like Shilltown's debate over there is going to pieces fast. He gets increasingly abusive as he gets cornered, as I'm sure you've already found out. It also appears somebody read the word "diatribe" to him, and he liked it, without fully understanding what it means...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his whole argument at present that (a) Flight 93 only had two engines, and (b) witness statements about where engine parts were found don't all use precisely the same verbiage, leading him to conclude (c) there were more than three places where they were found? Seems to me he's already conceded that some form of aircraft crashed there... nail him down on that, and we have some progress, then we can work on details.

Anyway, what it suggests to me, though I don't know this for sure, is that the engines came apart. We know the pieces found are far smaller than an intact engine. To a rescue worker, or even an experienced crash investigator trying to summarize, the low-pressure section by itself might be called "the engine," so might the high-pressure core, etc. -- thus, since we know no engine was found truly intact, it's not unreasonable at all for there to be more than two recovery locations.

Laughing boy, of course, says it must be due to people moving pieces around willy-nilly, and that only makes sense if pieces are being planted. As chippy noted, of course, there may have been other reasons to move them, and we still haven't established that they were in the first place.

David Wong said:
And all of the relief agencies and police departments who helped with the supposed cleanup. Remember that they're all in on it, too.
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Not everyone yet -- he'll get there, but at the moment he seems to be fingering just one guy:

Killtown @ Sector G board said:
3b) He [the backhoe operator] was in on it. YOu know, how some people are evil? (Think like people in the mob.)
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Now how anyone was meant to surrepetitiously drive a backhoe into the middle of a huge recovery effort, and just dump a half-ton chunk of metal, without anybody noticing, escapes me. So does the question of why anyone would bother adding a single piece to an already huge debris field that's completely consistent with Flight 93. So I can only assume that next our little friend will accuse the entire crew and the gathered populations of Shanksville and Indian Lake.

Really, we waited a week for this?
 
in all that wait, his only reply was to request that the questions be numbered?

what is he? four years old? even if chippy's response wasn't number, it was easy to follow since he is responding to killtown's QUOTES!

Killtown, just quit. in that thread alone it shows that you are ill prepeared and inadequate to do any type of "investigation" into 9/11
 
Yet more typical killtown.

On the subject of the backhoe driver planting the debris:

Killtown said:
911Debunker said:
6) Do you have any evidence that this is what happened?
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6) I just gave you a logically scenario. What more do you need?
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and:

Killtown said:
911Debunker said:
9a) For example, it makes no sense to say that the engine in the crater was planted on the basis that it fits into the backhoe bucket. In the absence of other evidence, that assertion appears totally ridiculous.
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9a)Why, cause YOU say so? If the perps wanted to get a quick photo-op of and engine in the crater, wouldn't it make more sense to have an engine scrap that would fit in the scooper that they can quickly lower it in, snap a photo, then take it out?
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That's trying to prove an unproven premise with an unproven premise, and it's fallacious.

But the argument can be better summed up as 'Killtown'.
 
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Hmm, does anyone else think KKKilltown might have confused Barry Hoover, backhoe driver at the UA 93 crash site, with J. Edgar Hoover? That ought to be good for a laugh...
 
I gave my closing statement regarding the engines. I'm leaving a lot of things unsaid, but I'm more interested in moving forward.

This is EXACTLY why I wanted a format. One whole page of the debate is just about the engines, and there are still a zillion of other things relating to Flight 93 that we should talk about. This debate will run for all of 2007, I predict.
 
I remember KKKilltown said 'Maths isn't my strong point'.

I can't wait for "facts aren't my strong point", "evidence isn't my strong point", "thinking isn't my strong point".
 
In the debate i see that KT has changed tact now and tries to say that it was not possible for this engine to end up in the pond.

Personally I do not think that chippy's idea that the explosion of the fuel launched it into the air is right. Fuel explosions do not have a lot of power in them in open air. More likely the engine bounced or skipped off the earth and ended up in the pond.

After all it did start out at 500 mph

If it cleared the tree tops and the trees are 50 yards from the crater and 15 yards tall it exited the crater at a 17 degree angle.

One can then calculate the upward and horizontal velocity required for it to travel to the pond.

The pond was 300 yards past the impact site but we need the change in elevation between the two as well. My approximation would be about 175 MPH horizontal velocity would do it.
 
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chippy said:
I gave my closing statement regarding the engines. I'm leaving a lot of things unsaid, but I'm more interested in moving forward.

This is EXACTLY why I wanted a format. One whole page of the debate is just about the engines, and there are still a zillion of other things relating to Flight 93 that we should talk about. This debate will run for all of 2007, I predict.
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Very quickly, what is your answer to the lack of scorch marks in the two photos he used in his summary?

Actually, I think that had you not brought that part of the discussion to end you could have been there until the cows came home argueing over everything Killtown wanted to argue over (seems he mostly wants to argue over the meaning of various words used by a number of people and that the lack of photographic evidence proves its a conspiracy! :D).

Regards

Mailman
 
jaydeehess said:
In the debate i see that KT has changed tact now and tries to say that it was not possible for this engine to end up in the pond.

Personally I do not think that chippy's idea that the explosion of the fuel launched it into the air is right. Fuel explosions do not have a lot of power in them in open air. More likely the engine bounced or skipped off the earth and ended up in the pond.

After all it did start out at 500 mph
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I'm not too sure about it either. I just know that Killtown will ask for bounce marks, and I know of none. I'm merely suggesting it as a possibility.
 
For gods sake why on earth are they debating a bloody engine?

If the site was faked they would have faked it to comply with an idiots (killklowns) expectations. There would have been a tail section, a nice imprint exactly the same size of the plane and lots of large bits of debris to make it identifiable.

That there isn't seems fairly conclusive that this was not a cunningly staged event.

That there are anomalies such as engine parts and distribution of the wreckage also would suggest that it is not staged. The only reason to stage something that the likes of killklown would find immediately suspicious would be to convince real experts who would not expect to see a tail plane etc etc.

Since no real experts have come forward it would suggest that either the wreckage is real or that the subterfuge has worked.

That the idiot killklown thinks there is anything suspicious about the wreckage also means that no consideration was given to an idiots appraisal of the scene, therefore it must have been either a real crash or a very convincing (to the experts) fake.
 
uk_dave said:
For gods sake why on earth are they debating a bloody engine?

If the site was faked they would have faked it to comply with an idiots (killklowns) expectations. There would have been a tail section, a nice imprint exactly the same size of the plane and lots of large bits of debris to make it identifiable.

That there isn't seems fairly conclusive that this was not a cunningly staged event.

That there are anomalies such as engine parts and distribution of the wreckage also would suggest that it is not staged. The only reason to stage something that the likes of killklown would find immediately suspicious would be to convince real experts who would not expect to see a tail plane etc etc.

Since no real experts have come forward it would suggest that either the wreckage is real or that the subterfuge has worked.

That the idiot killklown thinks there is anything suspicious about the wreckage also means that no consideration was given to an idiots appraisal of the scene, therefore it must have been either a real crash or a very convincing (to the experts) fake.
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[robotchicken mode]
Conspirator A: "Dammit! I told you we shouldn't have faked all the evidence in a scientifically accurate manner!"

Conspirator B: "How was I to know that all these CTists would catch on to us if we did?!"
[/robotchicken mode]
 
How did Killtown manage to get off the hook from answering this:

I have another question. According to the Salvation Army, they responded to the needs of relief workers and victims’ families at the crash site by:

* Serving nearly 20,000 meals
* Performing five worship services
* Providing a total of 13,000 volunteer hours

Source:
http://www.usc.salvationarmy.org/usc%5Cwww...5E?opendocument

And after three weeks, 300 volunteers were still able to spend a weekend collecting debris and accumulating enough to fill a third of a dumpster.
Source:
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/2001...crash1003p3.asp

My point is that the clean-up was a huge, incredibly long effort. 20,000 meals! Think of how many people were working and how much time they would have spent collectively. How much time do you think it would take to set up a crash scene that takes so much effort to clean up, and how on earth could they get away with doing all of that work less than 500 feet from someone's home, without him noticing anything?
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Or did I just miss his answer?

This is insane, the way the debate goes on and on over the miniscule point of how far an engine bounced and how much the fans weighed, while the MASSIVE, GARGANTUAN, BLINDING POINT THAT RENDERS EVERYTHING HE SAYS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS sits there unanswered.

This was a MASSIVE cleanup effort. His implication that a backhoe arrived and apparently buried 10,000 plane parts while nobody noticed, is head-explodingly ludicrous. And yet the debate grinds on, entirely on his ground, him claiming the moon doesn't exist and then defending it by spending weeks debating the ingredients of green cheese.

I'm not criticizing Chippy, because it's happened to me and everybody else over and over again. Some nut claims the towers were brought down by a flying goat who farts lasers, and then gets to debate for WEEKS on the melting point of steel as if he's worked his theory down to fine scientific points that can be discussed among rational adults.

What Killtown is saying is insane. It's not just a little bit wrong, it's not a series of math errors or misinterpretation of witness testimony. It's ridiculous in more ways than the mind can comprehend. The freaking bodies... the disposal of the supposed missing plane... the witnesses... the cleanup... agency after agency and police department after police department all being in on it...

Come on. It's nuts that he's able to frame the debate this way. In my mind he shouldn't be allowed to pick apart little details about the momentum of falling parts without answering the big, ludicrous questions first.
 
He's wimped out.

I saw him debating our very own Oliver on Loose Change today (no link, lads, I don't want to encourage going over there, and besides, it's probably been deleted already) on the subject of Flight 93. And over there he's reverted to his classic argument, the one we've explained over and over again, about how the cloud couldn't have drifted because he says it was going straight up, thus it originated from the wrong place.

sigh.

Where's our referee, Guile? Last time Mr. Town fled the scene of the crime, it was so he could go play at being the Hardly Boys, taking a turn for the decidedly necrophiliac when he created a macabre MySpace page of a murdered college student just to further his delusions. "Other work" indeed. Now he's continuing to talk about the subject, but fleeing his debate with chippy, not that he was contributing much beforehand.

Can we declare a winner, already? Any boxing referee would have called a TKO weeks ago.
 
The problem is that he refuses to talk about anything else. I have proposed a structure to the debate several times, and he has repeatedly ignored it. I know that if I take it in my direction too much, he'll complain that I'm manipulating the debate to my advantage. I tried making a closing statement about the engines just so that we could move on to something else, but he ignored it, said I was wimping out, and continued.

I don't intend to let my questions be forgotten. When he decides to put the engine issue to rest, I'm going to bring up the post of mine that you cited. I'll probably re-post it.

The debate is badly in need of structure, though. The engine issue really is not that important, and we've both made our sides very, very clear. I'm hoping that Guile will step in at some point and tell us to move on. I think that's the only thing Killtown would listen to.
 
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