Annoying creationists

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Another question: do you believe that certain higher level functions exhibited by humans, such as ethics, morals, altruism, etc., could not possibly have evolved?
The evolutionary question is not whether such things evolved it is how they evolved. Bioepistemic evolution argues that the best way of understanding the origin of such traits is to to see humans as actors (subsystems, if you will) within the evolving system of culture, rather than simply as evolving systems in their own right. Actors within a system cooperate rather than compete.
 
The evolutionary question is not whether such things evolved it is how they evolved. Bioepistemic evolution argues that the best way of understanding the origin of such traits is to to see humans as actors (subsystems, if you will) within the evolving system of culture, rather than simply as evolving systems in their own right. Actors within a system cooperate rather than compete.

Question is: what happens when a culture collapses? What is encoded and what is learned?

On a different tack, I've never seen cooperation, and I'm not a kid. What I see is negotiation, i.e., competition which requires that individuals bargain for their respective and mutual survival, usually leading to one of the sides getting the best deal and obtaining superior circumstances as a consequence. All of which seems to fit quite nicely with the idea of natural selection.
 
Question is: what happens when a culture collapses? What is encoded and what is learned?

On a different tack, I've never seen cooperation, and I'm not a kid. What I see is negotiation, i.e., competition which requires that individuals bargain for their respective and mutual survival, usually leading to one of the sides getting the best deal and obtaining superior circumstances as a consequence. All of which seems to fit quite nicely with the idea of natural selection.
You have often seen cooperation - consider which side of the road you drive on. I think that humans have acquired traits that lead them to form groups and will do so even if, intially, they do not know one another or if their culture has previously collapsed. The group they form is a hierarchy and competition is usually for place in that hierarchy.

I am not sure what you mean by "fit(s) quite nicely with the idea of natural selection." Social groups lead, so it seems to me, to social selection and one must consider the types of selection occuring within the information flows of a social hierarchy. The issue here is partly the unit of selection and partly whether it is even appropriate to talk about units of selection.
The fact of human cooperation does not fit very well with natural selection based on genes or even individuals as the units of selection but we have gene-culture coevolution and, if social evolution dominates, which I think it does in humans, then human genetic evolution will adapt to serve the needs of social knowledge. That will lead to humans adapting to function not just as competitors but to becoming actors within social evolution and, as such, they can be expected to exhibit cooperative and altruistic traits toward other members of their social group.
 
I think this claim is incorrect. Natural selection is merely about survival and reproduction. The concept of natural selection can be applied to organisms that are devoid of sense organs and, I would imagine, that was the situation in early evolution.

Sexual selection is different and can only apply to organisms that examine prospective mating partners. In other words, make use of data derived from sense organs.

This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Which part of sexual selection isn't natural? In what way is selecting for various traits in a partner not selecting for the genes that produce these traits?
 
Sexual selection is different and can only apply to organisms that examine prospective mating partners. In other words, make use of data derived from sense organs.

John, in what way is my genetics not in some way responsible for the sexual selections females may decide to make with regards to me?

The physical manifestation of my genetics - i.e. my body - and all its various facets are a reflection of the quality of my genetics are they not?
 
This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Which part of sexual selection isn't natural? In what way is selecting for various traits in a partner not selecting for the genes that produce these traits?
Sexual selection cannot possibly select for genotype, it can only select for observable phenotype. The observation requires data derived from sense organs.
 
John, in what way is my genetics not in some way responsible for the sexual selections females may decide to make with regards to me?

The physical manifestation of my genetics - i.e. my body - and all its various facets are a reflection of the quality of my genetics are they not?
Only in some respects. Some girls may not like the colour of your tie. (This is a serious comment - many manifestations of observable phenotype are plainly and obviously nothing to do with genotype.)
 
Sexual selection cannot possibly select for genotype, it can only select for observable phenotype. The observation requires data derived from sense organs.

Only in some respects. Some girls may not like the colour of your tie. (This is a serious comment - many manifestations of observable phenotype are plainly and obviously nothing to do with genotype.)

And the phenotype is caused by...? Would you like to provide some example of things that are "plainly and obviously nothing to do with genotype"?
 
Only in some respects. Some girls may not like the colour of your tie. (This is a serious comment - many manifestations of observable phenotype are plainly and obviously nothing to do with genotype.)

The ability to select aesthetically correct plumage seems somewhat tied to my genetics rather than simply a learned skill. There are clearly people who seem to have an 'eye' for what is correct and others who appear to have a total inability to understand why their website with huge text and green on magenta text is fugly.

A tie is not merely a tie, it is a test; like the plumage of a peacock. The woman is testing my genetics by observing what I have done with them - at a very superficial level. There are many tests of course - I just have to show her that I have other qualities that she is interested in.

Remember, sexual reproduction is about the recombination of genetics from two parties. The basic goal of the gene has not changed - if you will forgive the anthropomorphism: move towards the best genetic code for a given environment. The sexual issue leads to issues of genetic compatibility. At the most basic level of things like plants this has given rise to sexual selection mechanisms in the most basic sense - to avoid self pollination. Human sexuality is no different in this regard - we have mechanisms to help us avoid being attracted to our own family members.

I don't really get the thrust of your argument. Sexual selection is not somehow entirely divorced from genetics.
 
I guess you should only debate people who won't annoy you (or disagree with you) then. :rolleyes: sheesh Paul - remember, you sought THEM out.

In fact from what I can gather skimming the link, the whole talk is more "scientific" than I would've expected, esp from a site called "evolution is dead." Looks highly in-depth, in fact. Hope you felt like you got/are getting some interesting discussions there.
 
I don't really get the thrust of your argument. Sexual selection is not somehow entirely divorced from genetics.
I did not say that sexual selection is entirely divorced from genotype, I said that selection operates on observable phenotype not on genotype. I also said that the act of observation requires sense organs to acquire the observational data and a brain with which to interpret it. Do you have a problem with that?
 
You have often seen cooperation - consider which side of the road you drive on. I think that humans have acquired traits that lead them to form groups and will do so even if, intially, they do not know one another or if their culture has previously collapsed. The group they form is a hierarchy and competition is usually for place in that hierarchy.

I am not sure what you mean by "fit(s) quite nicely with the idea of natural selection." Social groups lead, so it seems to me, to social selection and one must consider the types of selection occuring within the information flows of a social hierarchy. The issue here is partly the unit of selection and partly whether it is even appropriate to talk about units of selection.
The fact of human cooperation does not fit very well with natural selection based on genes or even individuals as the units of selection but we have gene-culture coevolution and, if social evolution dominates, which I think it does in humans, then human genetic evolution will adapt to serve the needs of social knowledge. That will lead to humans adapting to function not just as competitors but to becoming actors within social evolution and, as such, they can be expected to exhibit cooperative and altruistic traits toward other members of their social group.

I disagree that agreement as to which side of the road to drive on is an example of cooperation. It is the result of a negotiation between opposing drivers who, but for their agreement, would run head on into each other. Each side gets something: the ability to proceed in the direction the desire, and each side gives up something: one half of the road surface.

Maybe it's all semantics, but I don't find that cooperation exists. I find it an illusion. Even soldiers in the same troop/unit negotiate for their respective survival by mutually agreeing to protect each other.

However, I agree that if a particular cultural behavior remains the status quo for a long enough period of time, then as with any other relatively stable environmental stress, the cultural behavior may help shape the genetic future of the organisms who exist within the culture.

This is what humans are currently doing. For example, we culturally believe that a certain class of person makes a better lawyer. So, we screen for that class of person by giving a standardized test that effectively permits only the target class to become lawyers. Then we pay those people, in large part, to run our government/society.

Consequently, we create legislation which represents the sort of thinking which is screened for in those tests, and we can observe the result in the way our laws are enforced and how this effects society.

250 years ago in the USA, our legislators and jurists were much more free thinking. The result was more novel legislation and enforcement, and more freedom for the individual. Today, those legislators and jurists are overwhelmingly cut from nearly identical cloth, and the result is that we can't tell one political party from the other, and further, we are increasingly more narrow minded in our legislating solutions to societal problems -- and ultimately, less free, as individuals.

Self-directed evolution in action, in my view.
 
I did not say that sexual selection is entirely divorced from genotype, I said that selection operates on observable phenotype not on genotype. I also said that the act of observation requires sense organs to acquire the observational data and a brain with which to interpret it. Do you have a problem with that?

Yes.

You are taking a top-down approach. You are starting with ostensibly the most complicated manifestations of sexual selection and declaring the mechanisms behind it fundamental.

Phenotype is an expression of genotype. No, it is not a 100% reliable mapping - it is however the best thing going without actually going to the trouble of producing an offspring. Clearly the expense of that operation makes that method of determining genetic compatibility prohibitive - would you not agree?

Starting with the brain as the requirement of sexual selection is far too high level - as I proposed with the basic selection that plants engage in.
 
Sexual selection cannot possibly select for genotype, it can only select for observable phenotype. The observation requires data derived from sense organs.

Not true.
Sponges which mate by releasing eggs and sperm at the same time have no brain or sensory organs at all. Yet sexual selection woks based on the volume of reproductive cells being released by the individual. It's unconcious sexual selection, but it's still sexual selection.
 
Maybe it's all semantics, but I don't find that cooperation exists. I find it an illusion. Even soldiers in the same troop/unit negotiate for their respective survival by mutually agreeing to protect each other.
Maybe it is all semantics but studies on evolution invest a great deal of time explaining the origins of cooperation and altruism.
People end up cooperating with other members of their group. It is true that we interpret the origin of this cooperation as being founded in competition but still the cooperation does come about. Humans and their direct forebears have been cooperating long enough to have a good proportion of natural cooperaters among their number.
 
Yes.

You are taking a top-down approach. You are starting with ostensibly the most complicated manifestations of sexual selection and declaring the mechanisms behind it fundamental.

Phenotype is an expression of genotype. No, it is not a 100% reliable mapping - it is however the best thing going without actually going to the trouble of producing an offspring. Clearly the expense of that operation makes that method of determining genetic compatibility prohibitive - would you not agree?

Starting with the brain as the requirement of sexual selection is far too high level - as I proposed with the basic selection that plants engage in.
The term "top-down" is a programming term that might be contrasted with bottom-up but I think I see what you mean. It is true that the data based approach is not reductionist in the same way that genetic analysis is.
The mechanism of sexual selection I describe is pretty much the standard one and clearly does involve brains and sense organs. Since my approach to evolution centres around data, and these are data processing organs, I am interested in sexual selection and sexuality. The other important mechanism of sexual selection is that which arises from male-male competition, winner takes the female. This also has implications for sense organs and brain and, in social animals, I should think it centres around hierarchy and links to female choice.
As an interesting point, in nature humans seem to form long term sexual pairs or mildly polygamous groups and are not *very* promiscuous. This implies that, in humans, sexual seelction will be two way and that male choice of females would have an impact on female biological traits.

I do not know about sexual selection in plants or sponges so I shall refrain from comment on those topics.
 
I do not know about sexual selection in plants or sponges so I shall refrain from comment on those topics.

Right, that's not the problem. The problem is the implicit generalisations about sex BEYOND humans. We're not the only sexual organism you know.

If you only meant to talk about human sexuality then you should have clarified that.
 
Right, that's not the problem. The problem is the implicit generalisations about sex BEYOND humans. We're not the only sexual organism you know.

If you only meant to talk about human sexuality then you should have clarified that.
Well, I do think the evolution of species related to humans is more interesting than that of more distant types. Nonetheless, I would be interested to know about the implications of work from other organisms.
 
In this thread? In which he has repeatedly demonstrated his profound lack of relevant knowledge?

Cynical, yes. Wry, not so much. Accurate, not at all.
Damn, your comments sound like .... "Extremely cruel or hateful content directed toward another user".

Talk is cheap, and if my relevant knowledge can be shown to be contrary to facts, I will adjust my position to include those facts -- unlike most here.

Please cite one or more examples to demonstrate your unsustainable slur.
 
You didn't answer my question.

Do you find materialism (metaphysical naturalism) adequate to explain the totality of human existance and experience?

It's a yes or no answer. If you say yes, you're a scientist. If you say no, you're a woo. And since you're wooing on about evolution, that makes you a creationist woo.

Just come out and say it - "It's all materialism, all the way down!"
 
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