Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[Correa Neto]

Here's the skull report. Link doesn't work, so I'm not sure where it's from - International Bigfoot Society? Not BFRO and not USC. It's University of California at Berkeley. My bad.
...snip...

LAL, there are a lot of fishy details in this tale…

First, “there was a lot of screeching in the forest in the previous days”. How this correlates with the finding of a skull with old dried skin and flesh attached? It takes more than a few days to dry flesh. BTW, what about the acid soils, no preservation of remains…

Second, the woman describes it as from a “young creature, perhaps 5-6 years of age”. Can she really be so accurate?

Third, it was sent to a crime lab. Where is the report? There must be one filed there! Or they are very sloppy? The same is valid for the University of British Columbia, the Regional Primate Center and at last the University of California. No reports or even a pic of it? Why not contacting Berkeley to find this Dr. Turner (assuming he/she is real)? Specimens collections are very organized. Note that Berkeley has an online database of specimens (I posted the link some time ago). All one would have to do is to search for “elk+Estacada and/or Oregon”. A search by the collector’s name is also possible. Why bigfoot researchers do not search for it, instead of just saying its missing?

Foru, photos were taken of the skull by he person who found it. The photos may have been sent to Green. Where are these photos? Not even the negatives remain?

Just like the yeti finger, a possible key piece of evidence is claimed to have vanished after being sent to study and no further serious effort to find it again was made. No, I don’t think a conspiracy by mainstream science to hide evidence for unknown hominids is the best explanation. Well, maybe there are men-in-black visiting bigfoot researchers and witnesses, but I highly doubt this... Sloppiness of the institutions is also not the best explanation.

Shades of a certain alleged bigfoot hand that popped out some time ago… And the usual way to handle information...

 

[LAL]

At the risk of falling in to the argument from authority trap, his credentials are quite impressive, BTW. So, there you have an expert who considers it all myths and misidentifications, one who is the “father” of a possible Bigfoot template. His opinion must have some weight, uh?

I don't think my ex would have liked his implication Nam vets lie. Ciochon's not the only one to receive reports like that from Viet Nam, but to him they're "probably false".

Its not the first time I read the claim Ciochon is afraid of loosing his funding for some bigfoot project.

I challenge this claim.

Got evidence to back it? Has he ever given any statement on this?

Or its just your or someone else’s impression?

"Ciochon thinks his study subject, which co-existed with the human ancestor Homo erectus for hundreds of thousands of years, may well be the archetypal inspiration for the "boogeyman" and other nocturnal monsters that populate the traditions of aboriginal cultures from Nepal to North America.

But he vigorously rejects any suggestion that Giganto, which he thinks was a specialized, bamboo-eating vegetarian, could persist today.

And he worries that the hotly contested grants that fund his work overseas may go elsewhere if the stigma of the shambling sasquatch of Native American lore attaches to his study subject.

"My biggest problem is there's no evidence, other than conjectural hair and these footprints, some of which we know are faked," Ciochon said.

"If someone finds a skeleton, I'll be there in a nanosecond," he said. "But that's what it's going to take to get me to change my mind." "

http://www.texasbigfoot.com/bigfootbelievers.html

Already posted, several times.

Sounds like he's not afraid his funding would go to some Bigfoot project but that he'd lose it because of one. Can't have that stigma, you know. I don't believe that's happened, in any event. In case he didn't actually say that to Theo Stein, I'll retract.

The wear pattern is most like Chimpanzees, indicating an omnivore, not a specialized bamboo eater. Even Dr. Daegling, author of Bigfoot Exposed, agrees with this. Why would a large, well-insulated omnivore have problems migrating over the Bering land bridge when it was 1000 miles wide, with groves of hardwoods and the forests of both Asia and NA extending farther north than they do now? It would already have been adapted to life in the forested mountains of China.

 

[LAL]

The very link you quoted again, as well as my posts talk about exactly the same processes, demonstrating how remains can be preserved.
Please re-read this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...&postcount=139
And tell me if there are many differences.

404 FILE NOT FOUND

I really don't want to keep rereading posts. Once is enough. I can always look up our extensive wrangle on this months ago if I have any more déjà vu.

Fossilization is chancey? Yes. Unlikely? Hardly.

There are fossils of gorillas and gigantopithecus, after all... Got any remain of a bigfoot?

One possible gorilla tooth representing the millions that have lived. How about Okapis? Any fossils from them yet?

The best evidence is from the PNW.

Sasquatch crawls into a hollow log or hides behind a boulder, dies, is scavenged, teeth fall into acid detrius and dissolve, all this in a remote, unpopulated (by humans) region and we're supposed to have fossils. Areas in the east where they may live have similar conditions.

Areas that have high potential for fossilization don't even yield a lot of fossils, even of common animals. There's no "should be" about it.

It's too bad the one Dr. Johnson saw near Oregon Caves didn't go into the caves and die. We might have some limestone encased bones in a few thousand years. <sarcasm>

It's also been suggested they bury or eat their dead. Bears and Cougars evidently don't but their carcasses are seldom found, let alone retreived. I don't think such an explanation is necessary. I know what happened to the remains of my horses in less than a year only 3 1/2 miles from town.

I don't seem to be able to get through to you on this, so let's drop it.

Nope, they didn't, since bigfeet's alleged habitat is much wider. Not to mention that since mountain goats may have been introduced there...
BTW, at post 660, you wrote:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2256549&postcount=660
So, are the Olympics part of "bigfoot country" or not?

Not the windswept ridges above timberline where the Mountain Goats hang out.
<snip>

Whose paper? Green's?

Porshnev's.
<snip>

What? Domestication?
Someone had a bigfoot pet?

Russian Almasty. Different deal. Supposedly some were trained to do simple chores.

Those handprints someone (Tube?)

When? I posted a link to Alton Higgins' article, I believe.

showed some pics? Those with short thumbs that may have been a hoax?

To sceptics, all prints are hoaxed. Someone (RayG?) suggested garden glove, but I've seen the cast (or a copy) in question and that would be the biggest darn garden glove I've ever seen.
<snip>

First of all, let’s get the facts straight. He claims to have smuggled a finger of what’s alleged by some monks to be the finger of a yeti. Very scientific and ethic, don’t you think?

He's not scientist. The story is straight from him. It's also in his book. That's a fact.

Now, AFAIK the finger vanished after having been sent for study. Its amazing how this sort of important evidence is claimed to have disappeared in similar circunstances, eh? A conspiracy to hide the truth that’s been going on since the 50’s?

Peter thought it might still be in a drawer in the British Museum. He's said nothing about any conspiracy that I know of. Neither have I.

 

[LAL]

Shades of a certain alleged bigfoot hand that popped out some time ago… And the usual way to handle information...

Wasn't the first thing I said about the report "If true", or words to that effect? One of the posters on BFF was going to contact Berkeley. Some people do try to follow up.

What would the hair of a long dead Bison have to do with a Sasquatch sighting in Tesla?

Vocalizations might only indicate there's a population in the area. If they can live there, they can die there.

Biscardi is regarded as something of a menace, especially since he may have desecrated an Indian burial. His ranking in the so-called community is somewhere below Jon-Erik Beckjord's.

 

[LAL]

Here's this again. Note it's a Heryford/Abbott Hill/Gray's Harbor print. There's not even a mention of the dermal ridges.

If all this is hoaxed, we've got some very busy anatomically trained hoaxers carrying on for decades.

 

[kitakaze]

Sorry, Lu. This post is not to me but just a few points.

The best evidence is from the PNW.

What kind of quality scale should we be setting our filters on?

It's too bad the one Dr. Johnson saw near Oregon Caves didn't go into the caves and die. We might have some limestone encased bones in a few thousand years. <sarcasm>

You mean 'the ones' he said he saw, right?

It's also been suggested they bury or eat their dead.

I know not by you but by whom, and based on what?

To sceptics, all prints are hoaxed.

No.

ETA: Please, if possible could you make the pics you post a bit smaller? It messes up the page a bit. Thanks.

 

[kitakaze]

Exactly.

No comment on the reports from Nam?

Sorry, I missed that. Where did you link to those?

What do you think of Australian reports? Or British?

 

[LAL]

Sorry, Lu. This post is not to me but just a few points.What kind of quality scale should we be setting our filters on?You mean 'the ones' he said he saw, right?I know not by you but by whom, and based on what?No.

I meant the best evidence, such as most of the footprint casts, Bossburg, the SC, a dozen unidentifiable hair samples and the PGF are from the PNW. Most of the researchers are/were there too.

Dr. Johnson the psychologist? I thought he only saw one. Do you have something that says he saw more? His account is here:

http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=00234

Only one and he told a ranger.

Which Dr. Johnson do you mean?

There's an NA report of two burying a third under tons of rocks and another of two placing a dead third in a tree. The eating is suggested in Bryne's book.
It's more Russian, but why not? Good source of protein. A close hominid relative might be more practical than we are. Of course, cannibalism has certainly occured in our species.

But all that's needed is for porcupines to not drag bones into limestone caves.

Okay, not necessarily hoaxed. Must be misidentified bear tracks, jumping animals, melting snow...........

Even scaled as per Greg, Wallace-Titmus doesn't match:

 

[LAL]

Sorry, I missed that. Where did you link to those?

Mentioned here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2257060&postcount=684

What do you think of Australian reports?

There seems to be a fair case for the Yowie. It's not necessarily another version of Sasquatch any more than Ngoui Rung or Orang Pendaks would be.

Or British?

Currently? From Medieval times?

Porshnev noted religion has been telling us for centuries these things can't exist. Muslims evidently think they can, but they aren't allowed to mess with them.

We know from Homo georgicus very primitive hominids once lived in Russia. Maybe there were some in Europe too. Krantz thought there may have been populations of human paleolithic hunters surviving into modern times. Not every account of hairy "wildmen" has to be about "Bigfoot". I actually hate that name.

 

[LAL]

ETA: Please, if possible could you make the pics you post a bit smaller? It messes up the page a bit. Thanks.

No.

When I'm posting URL between image tags, it comes out the way it comes out. Not only is it too much work to copy everything to one or more programs, size it, save it, upload it, resize it, and upload again (as with the .gif I just put up), with the size limitations on this board you'd be unable to read anything on the bone diagram I just posted. Remember RayG's complaints about the $100,000 offer? It took me about an hour of cropping and sizing and trying differen formats to get that reposted in a way it was legible. I'm not doing that again. He didn't even thank me.

I take it you haven't posted images on this board?

How difficult is it to scroll? Is there something in the guidelines about not messing up the page a bit?

 

[LAL]

It takes more than a few days to dry flesh. BTW, what about the acid soils, no preservation of remains…

F'r pete's sake, Correa. It takes awhile. Teeth don't dissolve overnight.

No comment on Crater Lake's chief naturalist seeing one? Crater Lake's in the Cascade Range, BTW.

 

[kitakaze]

I take it you haven't posted images on this board?

How difficult is it to scroll? Is there something in the guidelines about not messing up the page a bit?

Any images I think will be too big, I just link. I just do that out of consideration but thanks for trying.

 

[kitakaze]

Dr. Johnson the psychologist? I thought he only saw one. Do you have something that says he saw more? His account is here:

http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/report_detail.php?id=00234

Only one and he told a ranger.

Which Dr. Johnson do you mean?

Apologies, my mistake. I've mentioned that report numerous times in the past but had it mixed up with one involving 2 or 3.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

If all this is hoaxed, we've got some very busy anatomically trained hoaxers carrying on for decades.

No, just some gullible believers...

Lu, why do you suppose the toes in that very human looking print, are so close together?
Just like you find on someone who has worn shoes all their life..

Where is the pressure ridge ( comonly seen in Bigfoot tracks ) , created when the foot pushed off ?

Where's the Squatch ?

 

[SweatyYeti]

Diogenes wrote:

Where's the Squatch ?

In the woods.

 

[LAL]

Any images I think will be too big, I just link. I just do that out of consideration but thanks for trying.

If I click on a link while replying, I'm apt to lose my whole reply. I don't find links to be considerate, especially after that happens. I have no problem with big images; in fact, I like this colorful page. It rocks.

I've already posted the link to the article with the image. There was no comment.

So now there's a nice big image clearly showing how the primate foot anatomy specialist infers the anatomy, with legible comments from Goodall, Schaller and Swindler, but it's messing up the page? Isn't this like the whole spam and Netiquette discussion replacing any possible discussion of Green's article?

Green, incidently, may be the the only still living witness to the BCM/OM trackways some people so blithely assume Ray Wallce faked. His opinion counts.

 

[Correa Neto]

I don't think my ex would have liked his implication Nam vets lie. Ciochon's not the only one to receive reports like that from Viet Nam, but to him they're "probably false".

First of all, nowhere at his text one can read or inferr such a sweeping generalization like "Nam vets lie". "The reports are probably false" can only be taken as saying the "reports are lies" and "nam vets lie" by someone with a very biased point of view. Remember the other options? Misidentifications, false memories, daydreams, etc. Neither of those are lies.

Your post started with a fallacy and an emotional appeal. And it was not the first time a similar line was raised ("Are you saying the witnesses are liars? "). I strongly suggest to anyone defending any point to avoid such a flawed line.

And BTW, how many millitary were sent to Viet Nam? If Wikipedia's entry is correct, by 1969 there were 553,000 servicemen there. Human beings, LAL, subject to failures just like you and me.

Sounds like he's not afraid his funding would go to some Bigfoot project but that he'd lose it because of one. Can't have that stigma, you know. I don't believe that's happened, in any event. In case he didn't actually say that to Theo Stein, I'll retract.

I see no evidence he's afraid of loosing funds for a bigfoot project. I think this claim should be retracted and let RIP.

The wear pattern is most like Chimpanzees, indicating an omnivore, not a specialized bamboo eater. Even Dr. Daegling, author of Bigfoot Exposed, agrees with this.

Ciochon thinks otherwise, phytolithes and jaw structure seem to back him... I am having some difficulty on finding links presenting evidence they were omnivorous.

Why would a large, well-insulated omnivore have problems migrating over the Bering land bridge when it was 1000 miles wide, with groves of hardwoods and the forests of both Asia and NA extending farther north than they do now? It would already have been adapted to life in the forested mountains of China.

First, once again his is just speculation. There's no evidence they crossed nearly 6000 km between the northenrmost known fossil site in China and the nearest spot in Alaska, thour the Bering land bridge (you can check the distance by yourself using Google Earth).

Second, they also lived in Vietnam, Southern Asia, that's tropical rainforest (even in the Pleistocene) and not temperate rainforest. At http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/PNAS Giganto-Vietnam.pdf you will find reconstructions of the landscape of one of the sites at the Pleistocene Not exactly "mountainous terrain".

 

[Correa Neto]

One possible gorilla tooth representing the millions that have lived. How about Okapis? Any fossils from them yet?

But its there, its real. Got a bigfoot tooth?

As for the okapi, remember that there are fossil species (as well as still living) that are related to it. Some are not that different, such as Paleotragus. Got some fossil (or still living) species in North America with a similar close association to bigfoot?

The best evidence is from the PNW.

Are the most frequent evidence pieces (sight reports) restricted to PNW?

How do you qualify the evidence as better or worse? Yes, I saw your answer to Kitakaze, and I found it to be not enough, since the evidence is disputable. Not to mention that bigfoot's distribution is inferred by sighting reports and not casts.

...snip...

I don't seem to be able to get through to you on this, so let's drop it.

You would if you had reasonable arguments. That's all it takes.

Again, the fossil record provide no backing for bigfoot. Its true this does not excludes the possibility they exist or existed. However, it adds and extra problem to the claim "bigfeet are real", thus decreasing the probability of this claim being true.

Not the windswept ridges above timberline where the Mountain Goats hang out.

See? Their geographic distribution is much smaller than bigfoot's alleged geographic span. And remains exist.

Porshnev's.

Nope.
Got a link?

Russian Almasty. Different deal. Supposedly some were trained to do simple chores.

So, why you raised the issue? Why you placed them at the same bag with bigfoot? Do they have non-opposing fingers?

Is it already stabilished they exist or existed?

When? I posted a link to Alton Higgins' article, I believe.

Could not find a link. I remember they were found at a cave and looked very like the finder's hand...

To sceptics, all prints are hoaxed. Someone (RayG?) suggested garden glove, but I've seen the cast (or a copy) in question and that would be the biggest darn garden glove I've ever seen.

Sweeping generalization and fallacy, LAL.

I'm skeptic of bigfoot. Please provide the evidence I think all prints are hoaxed.

He's not scientist. The story is straight from him. It's also in his book. That's a fact.

Not being a scientist implies you should not behave in an ethical manner?

Peter thought it might still be in a drawer in the British Museum. He's said nothing about any conspiracy that I know of. Neither have I.

OK.
But some people did, and your previous post could be interpreted as so. Its nice to see you do not belive in some sort of conspiracy to hide the truth about unknown hominids.

Oh, the collections at the British Museum are probably very well organized. Why he never checked it?

 

[Correa Neto]

Wasn't the first thing I said about the report "If true", or words to that effect? One of the posters on BFF was going to contact Berkeley. Some people do try to follow up.

And the results were?

LAL, this sort of anedoctal evidence really fails to provide any backing to the claim. The effect is actually is to undermine its credibillity.

What would the hair of a long dead Bison have to do with a Sasquatch sighting in Tesla?

Nothing, perhaps. Or perhaps indicate the witnesses were victim of a prank.

Vocalizations might only indicate there's a population in the area. If they can live there, they can die there.

Wait! They are supposed to make screeching sounds or use infrasounds?

Biscardi is regarded as something of a menace, especially since he may have desecrated an Indian burial. His ranking in the so-called community is somewhere below Jon-Erik Beckjord's.

And how would you judge the act of bribing a monk with a bottle of whisky and stealing a piece of a relic?

The yeti finger, the alleged primate skull and the alleged bigfoot hand share a number of unconfortable similarities...

 

[Correa Neto]

Here's this again. Note it's a Heryford/Abbott Hill/Gray's Harbor print. There's not even a mention of the dermal ridges.

If all this is hoaxed, we've got some very busy anatomically trained hoaxers carrying on for decades.

Or someone just carved the fakefeet while looking at his/hers real feet and someone else made more inferences than actually could be made...

Oh, BTW, at the pic you posted, there's a box saying:
"big broad fingers and an opposing thumb"
Opposing or non-opposing thumbs?
Or just conclusions drawn from unreliable evidence?

OH, do see a match at that GIF...