LAL
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I was just a little startled to find a fish tail with a fin, that's all.
Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters
- Thread starter desertyeti
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I was just a little startled to find a fish tail with a fin, that's all.
carcharodon
Critical Thinker
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Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?
Hey sunshine, at least I don't go around reporting people for things I have ALREADY done and CONTINUE to do myself.
Snitch.
LAL
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Before the eruption, there was an old clipping (1924) on the bulletin board at Spirit Lake Lodge. The story was about miners donning grizzly skins and scaring claim jumpers. Never mind it was the miners who came terrified into Kelso, not the claim jumpers.
I just saw an interview with Fred Beck. There was no mention of spirit arrows or any of the stuff his son evidently added later. He seemed quite level-headed and sane.
John Green did some extensive checking of caves. Not a productive place to look. Best place for tracks is on new skid roads. Luring seems to offer some promise, but I'm not sure how you'd lure bones or fossils (especially in igneous rocks)
. Detrius covers any remains left from the scavaging and decomposition is usually complete within a year.Did you know Skamania County covers 1684 mi² and has two traffic lights? It's fantastic country. I miss it.
http://www.skamania.org/county_maps.html
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
OK carcharodon, tell you what. Since you still got your skirt up and I'm doing a lousy job of disregarding you, how 'bout this- instead of stinking up the thread with crap that has nothing to do with it(that means me, too) we go over to the humor section's 'comments which are beneath you' thread or the flame wars section and insult eachother silly till it's out of our systems and maybe get some laughs at the same time. After that we can call it done and resume the subject at hand contributing like adults. Your obviously free to decline.Hey sunshine, at least I don't go around reporting people for things I have ALREADY done and CONTINUE to do myself.
Snitch.
LAL
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Now this I'd like to see. Where are these threads?
carcharodon
Critical Thinker
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Done it.
Good idea actually.
It's in the flame section LAL:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
Good idea actually.
It's in the flame section LAL:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
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Let's run with that principle........
With regards to the "Patterson film is a hoax" theory...
There's a TOTAL LACK of evidence for:
1) The suit...and 2) The guy who wore the suit.
Never seen...and never heard from.
"In some cases, lack of evidence is evidence of a lack." How true!
Fortunately for us Bigfoot enthusiasts...there is PLENTY of evidence for Bigfoot's existence.
LAL
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Here's the skull report. Link doesn't work, so I'm not sure where it's from - International Bigfoot Society? Not BFRO and not USC. It's University of California at Berkeley. My bad.
"IBS Report #: 1505
Location: CLACKAMAS county, OR. United States
Sighting Type: 3
Latitude: +045˚ 17' N
Longitude: 122˚ 19' W
Day:
Month:
Year: 1978
Time:
Elevation: 780
Data Source: TR23
Credibility: 1
Locality: VCTY ESTACADA
Researcher: CLIFF OLSON
Witness: GROVER KIGGINS
Sighting Type: 3
Summary: DOG HAS STRANGE SKULL
Sighting Text:
OR Clackamas TR23 An amazing story that Cliff Olson told; was that in the spring 15 years ago Grover Kiggens, diseased, went to see what his dog was playing with, and took a human-like skull away from him. Talked to Mrs. Millie Kiggens, now close to 70 years old, but still recalls the incident. The dog actually brought the skull to her husband, and she described it at the time as still having some old, dried, brownish hair and skin/flesh adhering to it, and belonging to a young creature, perhaps 5-6 years of age. The lower jaw was still partly there. There had been a lot of "screeching" in the forest on several of the previous nights. Thinking it human, they sent it to the crime lab, and their report...the skull was not human! Next the human-looking skull with no sloping forehead and normal looking teeth, no long canines, went to the Regional primate center, but they wouldn’t talk to her...just returned the skull with a note. They sent it to the University of British Columbia, and finally had to go retrieve it themselves after two years, as UBC drug their feet and wouldn’t return it, they wouldn’t commit themselves as to what it was. The Regional Primate center was better, but said they couldn’t identify it. They did comment that the sutures on the skull resembled those of a giraffe (tho' they knew it wasn’t). Next it went to the Univ. of Calif., and after a binge of excitement about a possible new primate, they told her it was from an elk (even they could see it wasn’t), and has disappeared into the maws of that institution. There was some correspondence at the time that she'll try to find and send us, maybe we can track something down. I'll look into it if I can, but Jim Hewkin recalls trying years before to track it down unsuccessfully. Millie says she took some photos also...thinks she sent them to John Green, but not sure. Will query him about the Photos. Follow-up. Mrs. Kiggens sent a document signed by a Dr. Turner of Berkeley, CA. "...please tell him he can be proud...is ultimately Responsible for discovery new species and legal protection. Slow going partly because legal protection requires species known to science, hence named and described based upon physical material. several others and I cautious about going out on limb...process of elimination was very tedious, but skull is 'new.'" Western Union, 11/08/76.
Climate / Ecology:
Precip: ESTACADA 2SE 8.53 6.59 6.55 4.86 3.72 2.64 0.89 1.25 2.40 5.10 8.25 8.70 59.49
Temp: ESTACADA 39.53 42.80 45.80 50.02 55.55 60.63 65.51 65.35 61.01 52.30 44.94 40.43 52.12
Sun:
Snow: ESTACADA 2.4 1.0 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 0.9 5.2
Ecology: Missing"
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=17158&view=findpost&p=363329
"IBS Report #: 1505
Location: CLACKAMAS county, OR. United States
Sighting Type: 3
Latitude: +045˚ 17' N
Longitude: 122˚ 19' W
Day:
Month:
Year: 1978
Time:
Elevation: 780
Data Source: TR23
Credibility: 1
Locality: VCTY ESTACADA
Researcher: CLIFF OLSON
Witness: GROVER KIGGINS
Sighting Type: 3
Summary: DOG HAS STRANGE SKULL
Sighting Text:
OR Clackamas TR23 An amazing story that Cliff Olson told; was that in the spring 15 years ago Grover Kiggens, diseased, went to see what his dog was playing with, and took a human-like skull away from him. Talked to Mrs. Millie Kiggens, now close to 70 years old, but still recalls the incident. The dog actually brought the skull to her husband, and she described it at the time as still having some old, dried, brownish hair and skin/flesh adhering to it, and belonging to a young creature, perhaps 5-6 years of age. The lower jaw was still partly there. There had been a lot of "screeching" in the forest on several of the previous nights. Thinking it human, they sent it to the crime lab, and their report...the skull was not human! Next the human-looking skull with no sloping forehead and normal looking teeth, no long canines, went to the Regional primate center, but they wouldn’t talk to her...just returned the skull with a note. They sent it to the University of British Columbia, and finally had to go retrieve it themselves after two years, as UBC drug their feet and wouldn’t return it, they wouldn’t commit themselves as to what it was. The Regional Primate center was better, but said they couldn’t identify it. They did comment that the sutures on the skull resembled those of a giraffe (tho' they knew it wasn’t). Next it went to the Univ. of Calif., and after a binge of excitement about a possible new primate, they told her it was from an elk (even they could see it wasn’t), and has disappeared into the maws of that institution. There was some correspondence at the time that she'll try to find and send us, maybe we can track something down. I'll look into it if I can, but Jim Hewkin recalls trying years before to track it down unsuccessfully. Millie says she took some photos also...thinks she sent them to John Green, but not sure. Will query him about the Photos. Follow-up. Mrs. Kiggens sent a document signed by a Dr. Turner of Berkeley, CA. "...please tell him he can be proud...is ultimately Responsible for discovery new species and legal protection. Slow going partly because legal protection requires species known to science, hence named and described based upon physical material. several others and I cautious about going out on limb...process of elimination was very tedious, but skull is 'new.'" Western Union, 11/08/76.
Climate / Ecology:
Precip: ESTACADA 2SE 8.53 6.59 6.55 4.86 3.72 2.64 0.89 1.25 2.40 5.10 8.25 8.70 59.49
Temp: ESTACADA 39.53 42.80 45.80 50.02 55.55 60.63 65.51 65.35 61.01 52.30 44.94 40.43 52.12
Sun:
Snow: ESTACADA 2.4 1.0 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 0.9 5.2
Ecology: Missing"
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=17158&view=findpost&p=363329
LAL
Illuminator
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- May 19, 2005
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- 3,255
Let's run with that principle........
With regards to the "Patterson film is a hoax" theory...
There's a TOTAL LACK of evidence for:
1) The suit...and 2) The guy who wore the suit.
Never seen...and never heard from.
"In some cases, lack of evidence is evidence of a lack." How true!
Fortunately for us Bigfoot enthusiasts...there is PLENTY of evidence for Bigfoot's existence.
Nice new avatar. Mine's one of my paintings, BTW. We must be ready for Spring.
So little of the evidence even gets discussed. That must give some the impression there's very little.
Here's yet another trackway report from Skamania County.
"Friday, October 18, 1974
American Yeti Expedition Reports Most Recent Bigfoot Track Find
The Skamania County Pioneer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A meander-line of five toed tracks thought to have been made by the giant, human-like Sasquatch or "Bigfoot" was found on the edge of a logging show near the Skamania-Clark County borders Monday, Oct. 7 by an independent logging contractor and his crew, according to Robert Morgan, leader of the American Yeti Expedition. The Expedition has been searching for Bigfoot in the area since spring.
Morgan was contacted Oct 10, after much soul-searching on the part of the logger who was inclined not to report the incident. At the insistence of his crew, the logger notified Morgan.
Found were 161 actual tracks but further study produced additional imprints for a potential total of 264, Morgan said. The tracks were found along a fire trail bordering a logged area and they traversed some 350 yards.
"We couldn't believe it... we know it can't exist... but there they are so what can I say," the logger said in a discussion with Morgan.
According to Morgan, Dr. Grover Krantz of Washington State University, Pullman, a noted physical anthropologist and comparative anatomist, visited the site Saturday, Oct. 12 and examined and measured the impressions. He and Morgan also made plaster of Paris casts of seven prints.
He told Morgan that, in his opinion, if the tracks were faked the hoaxer would have to know a lot about anatomy.
Morgan pointed out that his research indicates this is the longest series of tracks ever examined by a scientist and from them new knowledge about Sasquatch gaits and movement in flat country may be determined.
Length of each footprint was 18 inches and measurements showed seven inches across the ball of the foot and 5 1/2" across the heel. Average stride was 50 inches.
Morgan pointed out other sightings have been made in the general area this summer. In July a man saw what may have been a Bigfoot several miles from the location of the most recent track findings. In mid-August a large grey creature was sighted by loggers on the upper reaches of the Washougal River.
Helping Morgan piece the puzzle together has been Elizabeth Moorman, a writer and biologist. A native of Texas, she is a graduate in biology from the University of Houston. A part of the expedition this summer, she used a passive approach in an attempt to make contact with a Sasquatch.
This involved camping by herself in remote locations in the Gifford Pinchot and eating only dried fruits and nuts and local berries, she said. She emphasized that vegetarian creatures give off less threatening odors.
Morgan added that on two separate occasions the fire-watch and loggers on the logging site had heard chirping like whistles, "...totally outside their experience."
Two other times the fire-watch had reported that the herd of cattle on the property spooked and crashed through the brush for no apparent reason.
In another incident, a large buck deer came down through the logging operation so exhausted from apparently being pursued, that a man could have easily caught it, the fire-watch said.
Morgan says the property owner has now found it impossible to find a man who will operate as a fire-watch in the valley.
The American Yeti Expedition will finish work in the Pacific Northwest Wednesday, Oct. 23, Morgan said. The expedition will return to Florida to work under the auspices of the American Anthropological Research Foundation in an attempt to find Bigfoot in the Everglades, he said.
Morgan hopes to lead another expedition into the Gifford Pinchot next spring and summer."
http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=206
I was living there at the time and didn't see the paper and heard nothing about it.
Correa Neto
Philosopher
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LAL, one more time, fossils are preserved in sediment, not soil. You know the difference between soil and sediments, don't you?
Please re-read this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2220603&postcount=139
You may have missed some points.
Oh, I have. Recent introduction is definitively a plausible possibility, given the absence of several other species of alpine and subalpine mammals, the long-term isolation and the presence of endemic animals and plants...
So what?
All the rest of "bigfoot country" shares the same geomorphological, pedological, geological and ecological characteristics? I don't think so.
LAL, I think no one needed to throw mastodons in the acid waters of North American bogs...
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan00/mastodon.baggie.hrs.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/exp...il/Treasures/Warren_Mastodon/warren.html?acts
Not to mention that "bigfoot country" is large enough to have a variety of environments where remains preservation is possible.
And red panda fossils were found only in North America?
Where are the bigfoot remains?
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Maybe the mountain "delivered" it to his yard, like my friends who lived in Yakima at the time.
It was several inches deep at his house.
Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?
Yuck.
Those meals sound pretty disgusting, but liking the Huntster?
You're sick...........
LAL
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Yes. One more time, teeth and bones don't tend to last long enough in wet, acidic soils to be buried in sediment, if any happens to be around.
Again:
"Burial is an essential part of the process of fossilization. Preservation of a skeleton is most likely to occur if burial occurs soon after death. Such an event is very rare. Terrestrial organisms usually fall to the ground at death. There they may be subject to a range of processes:
- scavenging by carrion eaters such hyenas and vultures.
- decay of soft tissue as decomposing fungi and bacteria operate.
- scattering and fragmentation of bones by trampling animals and wind.
- abrasion by wind-blown sand or in-stream transport.
- dehydration and splitting in the sun.
- chemical and physical weathering on and in the soil.
Decay within the soil is largely controlled by soil acidity: in wet acid soils containing air, bone dissolves completely; in wet alkaline soils bone is preserved; in dry alkaline soils, bone protein is lost but a weakened fossil is preserved; in wet, airless, acid soil (such as peat) soft tissue may be preserved with bone. A result of such processes is that the great majority of animals which fall on land are not preserved in the fossil record. The best chances of preservation occur when an animal falls into a fissure or cave, is drowned and sinks to the bed of a lake, sinks into a swamp, is swept by a flood into a swamp or lake, is buried in a cool volcanic ash shower, or is overtaken by some other rapid process which preserves the body intact and buries it quickly. The great majority of hominid and early human remains have been found in cave deposits, river terrace deposits, lake beds and in down-faulted troughs (such as East African Rift Valleys) which have been infilled by sediment and volcanic ash."
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes...sAndFossilisation/Fossilation/Fossilation.htm
I don't think so. Fossilization is rare. Finding fossils is extremely chancey.
Shoot 'em.
The two reasons stated didn't impress you at all? Sasquatches aren't creatures of the windswept, barren Olympics anyway.
Just where do yo think they live? Deserts? Cornfields? Central Park?
There's a correlation with rainfall. Areas with over 20" annually tend to be forested and/or swampy.
Don't forget the La Brea tar pits.
Possible, not probable. You seem to be locating them where they'll fit your argument.
I was using that as an example of an animal that had huge distribution, on two continents, over millions of years, but apparently left only a very sparce fossil record in NA.
Where one died recently. Where are the rest of the Red Panda remains?
And most of the preservation is of animals that weren't forest dwellers. How many actual beds closer to the PNW than Idaho did we find last time?
Could be.
10', according to Ciochon.
See below and change the facial hair a little.
All the coastal tribes have them in their traditions. Evidently they're not describing an Asian species that lived 300,000 years ago. If they became extinct then how would they be in anyone's tradition?
Maybe we'll get lucky and find a transported bone fragment in a cave somewhere before it gets buried.
Maybe Kathy Strain will pay your way to Seattle.
You seem so sure. Why did people on two different continents come up with non-opposed thumbs?
One of Kathy Strain's projects (she's a state's archaeologist, BTW) is to get the traditions and their interpretations directly from the native people.
Yes. Let's please not go through that again.
Fairies, leprechauns, werewolves............There are, however, real ravens, real coyotes, and real bears. They talk in the legends. That doesn't make them any less real.
I've tried twice to watch his series on DVD and was so bored I couldn't get through the first installment. Not my thing.
What's mythlike about "My daughter and I saw one cross the road and she said, "WTF was that?"
You've read his paper?
Do you have any idea how far back the stories go? How would Mrs.Chapman, who lived in a cabin in Canada, with no TV, Internet, radio, etc., manage to make up an animal that matches an unwritten description from the southeastern US in 1835?
Green also noted a number of disimilarities, such as domestication.
Yep. There are a couple of handprints that seem to confirm that, as well as witness descriptions.
I've posted the story of Hairy Man. That's Hoopa.
Yep. Spotting an 8' creature should be easier than spotting a tooth on the forest floor.
The claim was that evolutionists were trying to pass off Bigfoot as a missing link. It's all a hoax, therefore evolution didn't happen.
I debated creationism vs. evolution for two years on AOL. I deleted my Fundy Fun folder, but I'll see if I can find the site again. It's a hoot.
I posted the report above. The link doesn't work.
Well, apparently you didn't read it. Wasn't that what I inferred?
It's a good story. Peter Byrne tells it on Sasquatch Odyssey. Ever see it? Since he's the one responsible, he's either lying or telling the truth. Now which would sceptics choose?
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
taste, grampa?LAL
Illuminator
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You might want to check out what some of the groups are doing.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
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