Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

Thus far, nothing.

You've spoken to him recently then?

 

[tube]

For those without a copy of Grover Krantz book Big Footprints, this is the illustration from page 42. I'm sorry to have posted such a poor scan of this previously.

 

[RayG]

It's illegal to remove, own, or ship more than a spoonful of Mt. St. Helens volcanic ash from the GP.

Then how did Michael McDowell get almost 5 tons of the stuff?

I have about five tons of ash from Mt. St. Helens 1980 eruption.

RayG

 

[tube]

Hey, someone should call the FBI...

 

[Huntster]

While I've never been to Alaska, I've gotten pretty close, spending five years on the Queen Charlotte Islands* off the coast of mainland British Columbia. (the northeastern tip is about equal distance from both Alaska and BC)

I loved it there, the wife hated it. She, big city girl that she is, found it too isolated.

Was the rain a factor?

I'd go back in a heartbeat, she wouldn't be caught dead there. Funny how two people can have such opposing viewpoints of a place.

If the wife hates the place, you'll never see it again, regardless how you might love it.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Have you tried the North Gulf Coast?

The beachcombing is utterly fantastic. The flotsom from the entire North Pacific visits. You never know what you might find................

Have you ever been to the west coast of Vancouver Island?

No, and I doubt I'll get the chance.

I wish I'd been there. Frankly, I suspect it's more Heaven than I'd ever known.

The beaches of Ucleulet/Tofino are gorgeous. Long Beach is beautiful.

I believe that.

When I mentioned the beaches of the North Gulf Coast it was more about the beachcombing. The weather absolutely sucks. No people up around there. They couldn't survive.

But that's why the beachcombing is so good. Everything that goes to sea ends up on the beaches there; at least for a while.

 

[Huntster]

You may suggest, but I happen to like charchy's sense of humor. .....

I like his sense of humor as well as his outlook.

 

[carcharodon]

The feeling is mutual Huntster and LAL. Us 'wackos' have got to stick together you know.

 

[kitakaze]

I like his sense of humor as well as his outlook.

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

 

[LAL]

Hey, someone should call the FBI...

Was anyone talking about anything other than Mt. St. Helens ash? For awhile every gift shop in the PNW carried St. Helens pottery before the mountain was declared a national monument. So much ash was being removed they had to put a stop to it.

Of course, they wanted it out of eastern Washington:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/msh//impact.html

There were bumper crops later. The ash acted as a mulch and held water.

There was some speculation on BFF about where you got the ash and why you would use it, but no charges of stealing that I recall.

Again, how do you get "dessication ridges" in mud?

 

[LAL]

Yeah, well I like eating rotten beans and fermented squid guts and I even like you so there's no accounting for taste, hey Hunt?

Fortunately I haven't had my fried fat and chicken embryos yet. I may mix in some of those rotten beans. I have two packages in my refrigerator I don't know what to do with.

 

[kitakaze]

Fortunately I haven't had my fried fat and chicken embryos yet. I may mix in some of those rotten beans. I have two packages in my refrigerator I don't know what to do with.

I know what you can do with them! I'm guessing you might not know how to prepare Japanese rice so try taking one of those packages (make sure to mix in the soy sauce and mustard that should come with it), beat a couple of eggs, toss in a little cream, a pinch of sugar, a couple drops of soy sauce, then add your stinky beans. Throw it in the pan a few seconds and have it with your bacon and maybe some toast. Yum!

 

[kitakaze]

Any sasquatches in there? Anybody wanna bug the rangers and ask?

 

[LAL]

I know what you can do with them! I'm guessing you might not know how to prepare Japanese rice so try taking one of those packages (make sure to mix in the soy sauce and mustard that should come with it), beat a couple of eggs, toss in a little cream, a pinch of sugar, a couple drops of soy sauce, then add your stinky beans. Throw it in the pan a few seconds and have it with your bacon and maybe some toast. Yum!

Two late. I'm nuking it with southwestern Egg Starts. I'm international. And lazy.

Mustard and soy in the package? Not here. I'm not sure I still own any rice, but that sounds good. I'll have to get some cream. I only use Kikkomann Shoyu. Best stuff in the world.

I was in Japan briefly. One thing I learned was the clear soups are okay, but beware of the ones you can't see through.

 

[Correa Neto]

Don't I always?

If you say so...

They are creatures of open mountain ranges, one of the habitats that is definitely not Bigfoot.

Nope, mountain goats' habitat is much more restricted than bigfoot's alleged geographic span (assuming the critters are real and that sighting reports are reliable enough to probe their range). Despite this fact, there are remains of mountain goats. And no remains of bigfoot-like creatures in North America.

There's an effort to remove them from the Olympics because they're eating rare plants, but this paper says it's unlikely their fossils will be found in the Olympics (for two reasons).

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0888-8892(199510)9:5<1324:OMGCC>2.0.CO;2-0&size=LARGE

Maybe because, as the paper says, they may have been introduced there in the 20's?

Even if they were there before, are the conditions everywhere at "bigfoot country" identical to those at the Olympic mountains? I don't think so.

The Sasquatch sighting maps show a correlation with areas with over 20" annual rainfall. The areas they do seem to inhabit are simply not conducive to fossilization. Extensive bogs like those in Europe aren't found in this country. The closest to that are in upper Minnesota and Michigan.

A species living in such a wide area has lots of potential remains preservation sites. Bogs, as you know, are all but one.

I can't think of a more widespread species than the Red Panda, from Washington and Tennessee 3-4 mya to the Himalayas today, but all that's been found in this country, so far, are a few teeth and a jawbone?

Oh, a species that is claimed to live from east to west North America is a serious contender, ain't it?

That's been pointed out before, but look just at the hominid fossil record. Just how complete is that? It took the Leakeys 30 years to uncover one and they were looking.

And it's been pointed out that you don't have to be looking for a given fossil to find it. Some important remains were found by people who were not actually looking for fossils...

They'd still get eaten by mice and bacteria.

That would have an easier time to eat the tiny bones of red pandas...

I didn't make that claim in the first place. I think Gigantopithecus is a good candidate for an ancestor. Even if it wasn't a biped, over 300,000 years a bipedal descendant could well have evolved. Oreopithecus evolved bipedalism independently; why not an Orangutan relative?

A bipedal species could have evolved from Gigantopithecus... But its just speculation, and speculation with nothing to back it.

BTW, I was being sarcastic about Homo erectus folklore. We don't know that Giganto becam extinct 300,000 years ago. They may have overlapped with modern humans. Their descendants may be living today in Asia and NA.

Speculation with very little if any backing.

Gigantopithecus may have overlapped with modern humans... Is there some reliable backing for this speculation? Not that I'm aware of. What we actually know is that the reliable avaliable data indicates they were gone before the arrival of modern humans in Asia.

Gigantopithecus or their descendents may be living today in Asia and North America... Do we have any reliable evidence of this? Not that I'm aware of.

What we do know is there was once a giant ape, with reduced canines, living in China.

And that's all we know and all we have to work.
Everything else is only a supposition.

Conditions for a bigfoot/sasquatch candidate:
-bipedal
-2 to 3 m high
-look like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty
-coehxisted in North America with the antecessors of the current Native American populations

One could even use less tighter specs, and admit a non-bipedal and/or not-so-big ape as the sasquatch myth's template. But still, it must be from North America and coehxisted for some time with the antecessors of the current Native American populations.

The undeniable fact, the reality, is that the fossil record provide no backing to the existence of such creature. One migth speculate on why not, but the fact itself will not change unless the remains of a bigfoot-like animal with the right age are found in North America.

If the record were complete, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, would they? The irony has struck me too. I'm an atheist.

Don't worry. They would for surely find some lame "explanation". Satan tricking humanity, God's first "projects" that never reached the prodution line, etc.

Just check how YEC defenders deal with geochronological data.

They have no leg to stand on, but they just don't realize this.

Not unlike some of the reasonings presented by some people who defend the claim bigfeet are real. Ironic, indeed.

And I think that's a non sequitur. Lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack, eh?

In some cases, lack of evidence actually is evidence of a lack... In bigfoot's case, the absence of reliable evidence backing its reality is quite compelling evidence of its inexistence, IMHO.

I don't know that there's anything to be found, but if there is, it may not have been found yet, or, perhaps, something has. Remains, if found, may have been misidentified (as extinct peccary teeth perhaps). There's a report of a primate, non-human skull being sent to sent for analysis and disappearing at USC. If true, that would point up the hazzards of finding something.

Misidentifications? Maybe. But again, this is just speculation. And please note collections from museum and universities are constantly "dug" for this type of thing.

Now, as you said, the loss of a primate skull is just a report (got a link for it, so perhaps further checking can be made?), and we already know how reliable such information are.

But when it comes to the "hazzards of finding something"...
I have no idea of what you are talking about... Maybe I actually have, but I hope its not what I'm thinking...

 

[LAL]

Any sasquatches in there? Anybody wanna bug the rangers and ask?

In fact, before I moved from Skamania County, I'd read a print was found after the eruption. This was confirmed by Rick Noll some ten years later during a discussion on BFF.

Just where would one start looking for prints, bones (or even fossils) in this stuff?

 

[kitakaze]

I was in Japan briefly. One thing I learned was the clear soups are okay, but beware of the ones you can't see through.

Wha? Not a fan of miso shiru? It's made with the same thing as your breakfast. Yum.

 

[kitakaze]

Just where would one start looking for prints, bones (or even fossils) in this stuff?

Ape Cave? JK, but we can't link that without the mandatory scary legend, can we?

 

[RayG]

Was the rain a factor?

No, it came down to two things:

1. the isolation, and
2. the isolation

Only way off the islands is by boat or air. One bouncy ride in a seaplane was enough to freak her out for many months.

Waiting for a barge to come in with a load of Pampers wasn't her idea of a fun time. She was living in Boston when I met her, so she had access to pretty much everything and anything. Moving to a small town on an semi-isolated island was just too much of a culture shock for her. Sadly, she never wants to go back to this heavenly spot.

If the wife hates the place, you'll never see it again, regardless how you might love it.

Yeah, I've kinda resigned myself to that fact.

RayG

 

[LAL]

If you say so...


Nope, mountain goats' habitat is much more restricted than bigfoot's alleged geographic span (assuming the critters are real and that sighting reports are reliable enough to probe their range). Despite this fact, there are remains of mountain goats. And no remains of bigfoot-like creatures in North America.

And these fossils were formed in wet, acidic forests or on the high and dry mountain slopes?

Maybe because, as the paper says, they may have been introduced there in the 20's?

Read the rest.

Even if they were there before, are the conditions everywhere at "bigfoot country" identical to those at the Olympic mountains? I don't think so.

The lower slopes of the Olympics are "bigfoot country". The annual precipitation at Hoh is 12-14 feet.

A species living in such a wide area has lots of potential remains preservation sites. Bogs, as you know, are all but one.

It helps if someone throws you in:

America's bogs should be just chock full of common animal remains, I suppose.

Oh, a species that is claimed to live from east to west North America is a serious contender, ain't it?

Excuse me? The Himalayas to the Appalachians is a helluva range in my book. 3-4 mya isn't shabby.

And it's been pointed out that you don't have to be looking for a given fossil to find it. Some important remains were found by people who were not actually looking for fossils...

As I've mentioned, Pleistocene fossil beds aren't exactly common in areas Sasquatches are thought to inhabit. The fossils there are seem to be almost exclusively from animals of open grassland (where acid soil doesn't eat teeth). It would help to have beds and people digging in them.

A primate tooth was found at John Day. Alas, it was 20-22 million years old.

That would have an easier time to eat the tiny bones of red pandas...

Evidently they did.

Burial has to preceed decomposition. Even elephants get reduced to greasy black spots in a short time. It's all part of the ecosystem.

"Abstract A dead mammal (i.e. cadaver) is a high quality resource (narrow carbon:nitrogen ratio, high water content) that releases an intense, localised pulse of carbon and nutrients into the soil upon decomposition. Despite the fact that as much as 5,000 kg of cadaver can be introduced to a square kilometre of terrestrial ecosystem each year, cadaver decomposition remains a neglected microsere. Here we review the processes associated with the introduction of cadaver-derived carbon and nutrients into soil from forensic and ecological settings to show that cadaver decomposition can have a greater, albeit localised, effect on belowground ecology than plant and faecal resources. Cadaveric materials are rapidly introduced to belowground floral and faunal communities, which results in the formation of a highly concentrated island of fertility, or cadaver decomposition island (CDI). CDIs are associated with increased soil microbial biomass, microbial activity (C mineralisation) and nematode abundance. Each CDI is an ephemeral natural disturbance that, in addition to releasing energy and nutrients to the wider ecosystem, acts as a hub by receiving these materials in the form of dead insects, exuvia and puparia, faecal matter (from scavengers, grazers and predators) and feathers (from avian scavengers and predators). As such, CDIs contribute to landscape heterogeneity. Furthermore, CDIs are a specialised habitat for a number of flies, beetles and pioneer vegetation, which enhances biodiversity in terrestrial ecosystems."

David O. Carter1, 3 , David Yellowlees1 and Mark Tibbett2

(1) School of Pharmacy and Molecular Sciences, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia
(2) Centre for Land Rehabilitation, School of Earth and Geographical Sciences, University of Western Australia, Crawley, WA 6009, Australia
(3) Department of Entomology, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 202 Plant Industry Building, Lincoln, NE 68583-0816, USA

A bipedal species could have evolved from Gigantopithecus... But its just speculation, and speculation with nothing to back it.

Without those required three specimens it's all speculation.

Speculation with very little if any backing.

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

Gigantopithecus may have overlapped with modern humans... Is there some reliable backing for this speculation? Not that I'm aware of. What we actually know is that the reliable avaliable data indicates they were gone before the arrival of modern humans in Asia.

Then it's hard to see how modern humans would have folk tales about them.

Gigantopithecus or their descendents may be living today in Asia and North America... Do we have any reliable evidence of this? Not that I'm aware of.

It's interesting Dr. Porshnev, using Russian folklore, came up with some of the same physical characteristics, including non-opposed thumb, and behaviors Green found using NA reports (no folklore).

And that's all we know and all we have to work.
Everything else is only a supposition.

Conditions for a bigfoot/sasquatch candidate:
-bipedal
-2 to 3 m high
-look like the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty

There's quite a bit of variation in height and weight, as there is in our own species.

-coehxisted in North America with the antecessors of the current Native American populations

The Hoopa, for one, seem to think so.

One could even use less tighter specs, and admit a non-bipedal and/or not-so-big ape as the sasquatch myth's template. But still, it must be from North America and coehxisted for some time with the antecessors of the current Native American populations.

The undeniable fact, the reality, is that the fossil record provide no backing to the existence of such creature. One migth speculate on why not, but the fact itself will not change unless the remains of a bigfoot-like animal with the right age are found in North America.

There's probably a better chance of bringing one in alive.

Don't worry. They would for surely find some lame "explanation". Satan tricking humanity, God's first "projects" that never reached the prodution line, etc.

In fact, a creationist website positively crowed over the Wallace "revelations". That'll fix the evolutionists!

Just check how YEC defenders deal with geochronological data.

They have no leg to stand on, but they just don't realize this.

Not unlike some of the reasonings presented by some people who defend the claim bigfeet are real. Ironic, indeed.

Some of us don't dismiss thousands of reports that agree in anatomical details, sounds, and behavior. They're from people who have no contact with each other and are widely separated in time and distance. They'd be considere credible on anything else. We don't dismiss the physical evidence either.

Your analogy can stop right there.

In some cases, lack of evidence actually is evidence of a lack... In bigfoot's case, the absence of reliable evidence backing its reality is quite compelling evidence of its inexistence, IMHO.

And just who's determining it's so unreliable?

Misidentifications? Maybe. But again, this is just speculation. And please note collections from museum and universities are constantly "dug" for this type of thing.

Oh, really? Reputable scientists are digging for Sasquatch teeth in museum drawers?

Now, as you said, the loss of a primate skull is just a report (got a link for it, so perhaps further checking can be made?), and we already know how reliable such information are.

IYHO. I'm still looking for the link (it was on BFF recently, but I can't find the thread), but it's a BFRO report so I didn't think you'd read it anyway.

But when it comes to the "hazzards of finding something"...
I have no idea of what you are talking about... Maybe I actually have, but I hope its not what I'm thinking...

Remember the purported Yeti finger smuggled to the British Museum in Gloria Stewart's lingerie case?