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Changes To The Challenge

The Atheist said:
...
Is that official - announcement at TAM? I see nothing on the JREF site.

If so, It'll save me bumping it.
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I checked where I thought I read it, but came up empty. A quick search produced no helpful results either.

Will do a detailed search later.

(If you wouldn't bump it, The Atheist, I sure would.)
 
Actually my router went down about then, couldn't get online, and I forgot about it until you posted.
 
GzuzKryzt said:
I checked where I thought I read it, but came up empty. A quick search produced no helpful results either.

Will do a detailed search later.

(If you wouldn't bump it, The Atheist, I sure would.)
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Randi sent me an email saying that and I posted it on the Prescott critique thread.

Here is Randi's email

-----Original Message-----
From: James Randi [mailto:randi@randi.org]
Sent: 12 December 2006 16:20
To: xxxxx@xxxxx.com
Subject: RE: Your Personal FAQ and Mr Prescott's critique

Since the JREF challenge – in January at the TAM 5 – will be totally restated and new rules will be put in place, any change now would not be needed…

James Randi.
 
Dumb All Over said:
Hey Gzuz, do you think Geller, Van Praagh, Browne, and Edward will be exempt from the "academic endorsement" stipulation?
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Very likely.

Mr. Geller does have some "academic endorsement" [series of nasty coughs], doesn't he?

With a savvy PR Agent, JREF might get some leverage on those guys. I very much doubt one of them will show up for a test - but one has to try, hasn't one?

The fallout from their failure to agree to a test with JREF is the core of the PR. JREF should be the Mike Torello to those guys' Ray Luca. :D

(Allright, I'm babbling.)
 
I don't like this. Inevitably, it means that those whom I used to browbeat about taking the challenge will now claim that Randi is running scared. The whole point of the challenge is that it needs to be open to everybody, not just a few with high media profiles. Now the MA woo-woos with whom I deal on a daily basis have got a get-out card to play. This change is ill-considered and ultimately will be counter-productive.
 
Kimpatsu said:
I don't like this. Inevitably, it means that those whom I used to browbeat about taking the challenge will now claim that Randi is running scared. The whole point of the challenge is that it needs to be open to everybody, not just a few with high media profiles. Now the MA woo-woos with whom I deal on a daily basis have got a get-out card to play. This change is ill-considered and ultimately will be counter-productive.
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I happen to agree that being open to everyone is a powerful component of the challenge, one that I am sad to see go. However, that is not the "whole point" of the challenge, and never has been. The challenge is primarily a publicity tool. It is a way to garner interest in the JREF and raise awareness about skepticism with the general public. The actual format of the challenge is secondary (given, some formats may be more effective than others at accomplishing this purpose). The challenge certainly does not exist so us skeptics can use it to browbeat True Believers and somehow "win" an argument with them (ask Randi, he will tell you that is a pointless exercize).

Over the years the JREF's implementation of the challenge became more about haggling with unknown woo woos than promoting skepticism among the general public. By altering the format to focus on the "big fish" it is more likely that the challenge (and the JREF, and skepticism) will garner major media attention, a task that the "old" challenge no longer accomplished in a significant way.
 
The challenge hasn't changed to the extent that these are good points:

  • I don't like this. Inevitably, it means that those whom I used to browbeat about taking the challenge will now claim that Randi is running scared .
  • I happen to agree that being open to everyone is a powerful component of the challenge, one that I am sad to see go .

The challenge is still open to the public. All anyone would have to do is get some publicity and some academic review. It won't be as easy for anyone in the world to enter the challenge after April 1st but it won't be impossible either.

I'm glad Mr. Randi is in good health and spirits. I didn't specifically pray for him but God knows I don't want anything to happen to him before I get that million bucks. :)

Gene
 
Agreed. That is an important point. In no way do the new rules preclude someone with genuine psychic powers from fulfilling the necessary protocols to qualify for acceptance.

AgingYoung said:
The challenge hasn't changed to the extent that these are good points:
  • I don't like this. Inevitably, it means that those whom I used to browbeat about taking the challenge will now claim that Randi is running scared .
  • I happen to agree that being open to everyone is a powerful component of the challenge, one that I am sad to see go .
The challenge is still open to the public. All anyone would have to do is get some publicity and some academic review. It won't be as easy for anyone in the world to enter the challenge after April 1st but it won't be impossible either.

I'm glad Mr. Randi is in good health and spirits. I didn't specifically pray for him but God knows I don't want anything to happen to him before I get that million bucks. :)

Gene
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I think you have also overlooked one of the major benefits to the changes

we will begin actively pursuing the possibility of legal actions being brought against prominent figures in the field to investigate whether or not any laws are being broken by false promises to clients, incorrect attributions, accepting fees for services not met, or other deceptive procedures whereby the public has been misinformed and/or taken advantage of. This will include both civil and criminal actions.
We will seek to bring civil lawsuits against offenders, we will inform the Securities Exchange Commission [SEC] of possible infractions in which they might be interested, and we will bring attention to possible violations involving 501(c)3 requirements in the case of claimed religious exemptions.
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I can just image the headlines
Famous psychic sued for making false claims.

I am sick of seeing ads in the paper for psychic services in Australia.
 
The Atheist said:
Well, the first smart move might be to increase the size of the Challenge Prize. A mio just doesn't cut the mustard any more - make it ten. Extreme Atheists are good for at least a couple.

Instead of having $1M in bonds held by a bank somewhere, part of the "new proactivity" could be duplicating EA's association with a couple of international bookmakers. Or is that just too obvious?
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I wonder if the JREF has a $1M dollar bet with a bookmaker that the JREF prize will be won and proof of the supernatural will be obtained. It would be a great cover.

Not that anybodies gonna win the prize.
 
Reager said:
Agreed. That is an important point. In no way do the new rules preclude someone with genuine psychic powers from fulfilling the necessary protocols to qualify for acceptance.
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They do in effect. If you have genuine psychic powers that are old hat you are not going to be able to get any publicity. The argument will go like this:

"I'm a genuine astrologer, but so are hundreds of others. Astrology has been round for hundreds of years. Why is any media outlet going to write/broadcast a story about me? I can do what I say, but while I'd love to take the challenge I'm shut out..."

Only those woos who have a talent for self promotion are going to be challenged. There's some sense in that from the JREF's point of view, since they are only going after those whose profile will, in turn, garner publicity for the JREF cause, but the little fish are going to remain unchallenged.

I also wonder how much difference it's going to make. The high profile woos are just going to ignore the whole thing. Randi's been challenging them for years and they just ignore him or wave him away with a few well placed lies. Sure, the JREF will have a little more time and resources going after them now that it is going to ignore low profile nutjobs, but how much difference is that actually going to make?
 
Is James Randi the only one who can test the "little fish"? Maybe these changes will open doors for other organizations to take up the slack. I belong to the Denver Skeptics group. We don't have a million dollars. In fact, we don't have any money to my knowledge. Nevertheless, I'm thinking of approaching my group with the idea to become more involved in testing the local woos who will no longer be eligible for Randi's prize. When a door closes, others seem to open.
 
Didn't Randi or Jeff already say that a member of the general public need only pass one of the many smaller skeptical challenges out there in order to qualify for the million dollar challenge?
 
rjh01 said:
I think you have also overlooked one of the major benefits to the changes



I can just image the headlines
Famous psychic sued for making false claims.

I am sick of seeing ads in the paper for psychic services in Australia.
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Perhaps I am misunderstanding what Randi wrote, but it is my understanding that any lawsuit brought against a would-be psychic (which I think is a very good idea and long overdue) would be a totally separate endeavor from the million dollar challenge.
 
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