Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Darth Rotor]

Oh yeah, most of us recognize that feeling.

When I was about 16 and just starting to lose my religion, I recall thinking long and hard on the subject, trying to reconcile the things I had read and been told about Jesus with my observations about how the world works. And I had a revelation that came on strong. It was so obvious.

Jesus was from the future. I mean, it explained everything. First it explained the miracles (future science). Secondly, it explained prophecy (people were getting messages from the future). Thirdly, it explained what Jesus was trying to do; save the world by giving us morality. (Yes, I thought of this long before the "Terminator" movies).

Man, was I ever excited. I wanted to share my discovery. Unfortunately, the first person to receive the benefit of my revelation was a girl in my church whom I had had many long discussions with and desperately wanted to hump impress. The way I envisioned it, her eyes would go wide and she would realize what a genius I was and go out to "Make-out Point" with me to discuss it further. I was right about the "wide eyes" part, but there, the similarity to my vision ended. Her reaction was not one of being impressed, but of sheer horror. She correctly recognized that my "discovery" was heresy, since it would be people doing this time travel thing, not God. Crushed, I shut up about it.

I'm just glad the Raelians didn't find me when I was at this formative stage. A support group to prop up my beliefs at that time might have sent me on a lifelong course of magical thinking.

So, Huntster, you and I are not so unalike. The difference is, you had a manifestation, AND a support group to believe it. There but for the no-grace of no-god go I.

I am guessing your first beer came within a few weeks of this event. Close?

DR

 

[Tricky]

I am guessing your first beer came within a few weeks of this event. Close?

LOL. No, not until about four years later. However, I will not deny the efficacy of beer in the process of receiving revelations.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I For me, it's more like a "thought" or "answer" that suddenly pops into my head abruptly. It comes strong, and with a feeling of "of course!".

Oh yeah, most of us recognize that feeling.

When I was about 16 and just starting to lose my religion, I recall thinking long and hard on the subject, trying to reconcile the things I had read and been told about Jesus with my observations about how the world works. And I had a revelation that came on strong. It was so obvious.

Jesus was from the future....

Cute.

That's quite a "revelation". Do you suppose it came from God?

I mean, it explained everything. First it explained the miracles (future science). Secondly, it explained prophecy (people were getting messages from the future). Thirdly, it explained what Jesus was trying to do; save the world by giving us morality. (Yes, I thought of this long before the "Terminator" movies).

Man, was I ever excited. I wanted to share my discovery. Unfortunately, the first person to receive the benefit of my revelation was a girl in my church whom I had had many long discussions with and desperately wanted to hump impress.

Yeah. That seems so..........so.............innocent and Godly.

Yeah. You were on a mission from God...............

So, Huntster, you and I are not so unalike.

Sorry, but we are quite "unalike".

The difference is, you had a manifestation, AND a support group to believe it.

Support group?

To believe it?

Who says I share any revelations with my "support group"?

There but for the no-grace of no-god go I.

That is exactly where you're going...............with the no-grace of no-god.

Enjoy the journey and destination.

 

[Tricky]

Cute.

That's quite a "revelation". Do you suppose it came from God?

I'd suppose it is just as likely that my revelation came from God as yours.

Mostly I think they come from your imagination.

Yeah. That seems so..........so.............innocent and Godly.

Yeah. You were on a mission from God...

Hey, the Lord works in mysterious ways, right? Besides I didn't have the revelation because of hormones. That only determined my choice of diciples.

And I'm telling a true story here, Huntster, but throwing in a little humor. Don't you think God has a sense of humor. (Answer -- fill in the blank: "Yes, or He wouldn't have created _________________")

Sorry, but we are quite "unalike".

LOL. In some ways, yes, in others no. There aren't many here who appreciate your sense of humor. It wasn't intended as an insult.

Support group?

To believe it?

Who says I share any revelations with my "support group"? .

You had a group of people that you could share your (newfound?) understanding of God with. You've already said as much. Are you telling us you didn't tell a soul?

That is exactly where you're going...............with the no-grace of no-god.

Enjoy the journey and destination.

Threats of hell, Huntster? That's not usually your style.

I don't think you have the travel itenerary any more than I do. But yes, I'm enjoying the trip very much, and I have no worries, in spite of what some Christians have tried to scare me with, about the destination. I refuse to live my life in fear.

 

[Ossai]

Darth Rotor

Your wiki disagrees with Dr Rhodes, pick whichever one you prefer. Oh, wait, you have convinced yourself, and your mind is made up.

Apparently you didn’t even bother reading what you yourself posted.

Son of man
This term is used in different ways in the Bible...

Denotes mankind generally, with special reference to their weakness and frailty (Job 25:6; Ps. 8:4; 144:3; 146:3; Isa. 51:12, etc.).

It is a title frequently given to the prophet Ezekiel, probably to remind him of his human weakness.

In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Savior. In the Old Testament it is used only in Ps. 80:17 and Dan. 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body (Hebrews 2:14; Luke 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.

Author: Matthew G. Easton

As to omnipotence, you seem to assume that omnipotence inherently constrains choice of design by the omnipotent, which is self contradictory.

Again, no. I stated that if there are constraints in this universe, anything from requiring love and hate to the laws of physics the omnipotent one put them in place.
(You really do need to work on your reading skills. I’ve stated this a couple of times already and you still don’t seem to understand.)

No, you are the one assuming constrains.

No, you did, but this is getting tiresome. You are looking, it seems, for someone to blame.

Again, NO. You are the one that posted

Conflict, tension, or opposition, seems to me an integral part of the model in question. Why should love be any different?

That is a constraint. I keep pointing out that if there is an omnipotent creator then those constraints did not have to be included in the universe.

I’m still waiting on your answer to Garrette’s post. You referenced the original post here, but didn’t actually answer the questions.

Feel free to design such a universe. You have eternity.

No problem, make me omnipotent and it’ll be done before you even know it.

Ossai

 

[Garrette]

Thus, you don't understand how God "manifests" or "reveals" Himself, nor the faith required in order for that to occur.

[Bolding mine]This is one of the major problems I have in following your reasoning. Kurious_Kathy says things very similar quite often.

The faith must happen before the revelation. Then on what do I base my faith? More to the point, how can I possibly know which of the many faiths I should choose?

If I have no revelation and if the bible cannot be demonstrated as anything more than a collection of stories (I understand that I will see it differently once I have adopted my faith in it, but as of yet I am without the faith so you can't expect me to see it differently yet), then how do I know that the faith you and Kurious_Kathy advocate is better than the faith Abdullah advocates or the faith that Deepak Chopra recommends?

Finally, when I did have faith (and I truly did, more than once) why did I still not see the bible differently and why did I receive no such revelations?

I suppose, but I wouldn't say it that way. For me, it's more like a "thought" or "answer" that suddenly pops into my head abruptly. It comes strong, and with a feeling of "of course!".

Tricky's humor aside, the substance of his example is relevant.

I have had such moments. They have come in forms opposite to yours in that they indicated I should drop my faith or should adopt a more rational approach to reviewing claims and data. "Ahah!" moments are not alien to me nor, I think, to atheists in general.

They are also not alien to Muslims or paranoid schizophrenics (and I am not equating you to either of those classes of people; I am only pointing out that the experience cannot be differentiated from the experiences of those classes.)

Do you understand what someone means when they pray to God (the opposite of receiving revelation)?

I think I have a good idea. Could you tell us what you think it means?

Do you understand the different types of prayer? Thanksgiving? Praise? Wonder? Grief? Awe? Just saying Good Morning?

I do, though I disagree that "Good morning" is a prayer, even amongst those who are aware of the etymology. Unless, of course, you also think you are praying to Freyda everytime you say TGIF.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Darth Rotor
Apparently you didn’t even bother reading what you yourself posted.

And you didn't bother reading my comment after that excerpt, so this conversation has again ended.

That is a constraint. I keep pointing out that if there is an omnipotent creator then those constraints did not have to be included in the universe.

But were. Why does that bother you?

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

I’m still waiting on your answer to Garrette’s post. You referenced the original post here, but didn’t actually answer the questions.

Then wait some more.

No problem, make me omnipotent and it’ll be done before you even know it.
Ossai

*thick Scottish accent*

"I'll put mah best man on it."

DR

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Cute.

That's quite a "revelation". Do you suppose it came from God?

I'd suppose it is just as likely that my revelation came from God as yours.

Okay. That's your opinion. That's your faith. I will not dispute it, although I have a healthy dose of skepticism.

Mostly I think they come from your imagination.

I don't.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Yeah. That seems so..........so.............innocent and Godly.

Yeah. You were on a mission from God...

Hey, the Lord works in mysterious ways, right?

Yup. Sure does.

Besides I didn't have the revelation because of hormones. That only determined my choice of diciples.

I prefer to see it as the imagination overriding faith, then the hormones interrupting imaginative thought.

And I'm telling a true story here, Huntster, but throwing in a little humor. Don't you think God has a sense of humor. (Answer -- fill in the blank: "Yes, or He wouldn't have created _________________")

"Yes, or He wouldn't have created people like thaiboxerken."

Originally Posted by Huntster
Sorry, but we are quite "unalike".

LOL. In some ways, yes, in others no. There aren't many here who appreciate your sense of humor.

I missed my calling. I should have been a stand-up comic.

Just my face can break people out in raucous laughter.

It wasn't intended as an insult.

I believe that, and it wasn't taken as an insult.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Support group?

To believe it?

Who says I share any revelations with my "support group"? .

You had a group of people that you could share your (newfound?) understanding of God with. You've already said as much. Are you telling us you didn't tell a soul?

I told no biological beings, except Mrs. Huntster and y'all (who don't know me from Adam). I haven't even shared it in a confessional.

But lots of souls know..................

Originally Posted by Huntster
That is exactly where you're going...............with the no-grace of no-god.

Enjoy the journey and destination.

Threats of hell, Huntster? That's not usually your style.

I can't threaten you with Hell. Only you and God have authority over that.

I don't know where your journey will take you. But I hope you enjoy it. All of it.

I don't think you have the travel itenerary any more than I do.

I don't. I haven't even got mine.

But I've tried to make some reservations. I haven't gotten confirmation yet, but I've got faith...................

...I refuse to live my life in fear.

What is there to be afraid of? With faith, fear is defeated.

It's like the greeting of the risen Christ that John Paul II repeated with his first official words from the Vatican balcony:

Non avete paura!

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Thus, you don't understand how God "manifests" or "reveals" Himself, nor the faith required in order for that to occur.

[Bolding mine]This is one of the major problems I have in following your reasoning. Kurious_Kathy says things very similar quite often.

The faith must happen before the revelation. Then on what do I base my faith?

If you base it on proof, or even require "conclusive evidence", it won't be faith.

Faith requires a lack of establishment. The less evidence there is, the more faith will be required to accept it.

Then, when faith is rewarded, more comes easier:

To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

More to the point, how can I possibly know which of the many faiths I should choose?

Choose the one that fits you best and go forward from there. Look with faith, not doubt.

If I have no revelation and if the bible cannot be demonstrated as anything more than a collection of stories (I understand that I will see it differently once I have adopted my faith in it, but as of yet I am without the faith so you can't expect me to see it differently yet), then how do I know that the faith you and Kurious_Kathy advocate is better than the faith Abdullah advocates or the faith that Deepak Chopra recommends?

Try them all. Experiment. See what you like.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Finally, when I did have faith (and I truly did, more than once) why did I still not see the bible differently and why did I receive no such revelations?

Perhaps your faith wasn't great enough. Remember:

To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Originally Posted by Huntster
I suppose, but I wouldn't say it that way. For me, it's more like a "thought" or "answer" that suddenly pops into my head abruptly. It comes strong, and with a feeling of "of course!".

Tricky's humor aside, the substance of his example is relevant.

I have had such moments. They have come in forms opposite to yours in that they indicated I should drop my faith or should adopt a more rational approach to reviewing claims and data. "Ahah!" moments are not alien to me nor, I think, to atheists in general.

Even Christ was tempted by the Adversary. Don't you think you, too would be tempted?:

When he returned to his disciples he found them asleep. He said to Peter, "So you could not keep watch with me for one hour? Watch and pray that you may not undergo the test. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

They are also not alien to Muslims or paranoid schizophrenics (and I am not equating you to either of those classes of people; I am only pointing out that the experience cannot be differentiated from the experiences of those classes.

God is an experience with is not differentiated from different people, even if we understand Him differently.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Do you understand what someone means when they pray to God (the opposite of receiving revelation)?

I think I have a good idea. Could you tell us what you think it means?

It's conversation. Not always asking for goodies or assistance, like a help line, and not even always in praise. Sometimes it's just a "good morning", like you'd give the guy you pass on the street.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Do you understand the different types of prayer? Thanksgiving? Praise? Wonder? Grief? Awe? Just saying Good Morning?

I do, though I disagree that "Good morning" is a prayer, even amongst those who are aware of the etymology.

Oh, but it is.

Who doesn't like a genuine wish from someone to have a "good morning"?

I suspect God would like it, too.

Unless, of course, you also think you are praying to Freyda everytime you say TGIF.

Nope. When I say TGIF, I'm not even thinking of God (even though His Holy Name is part of that overused acronym).

When I pray, it is consciously directed toward God or Christ. I even pray to Mary, the Mother of God, my guardian angel, and even deceased loved ones.

 

[Garrette]

If you base it on proof, or even require "conclusive evidence", it won't be faith.

Faith requires a lack of establishment. The less evidence there is, the more faith will be required to accept it.

I understand that concept but it overlooks the point. If there is no revelation first, then what am I having faith in?

I'm not having it in god, in whatever form or by whatever name, because I know nothing of god. If I listen to you or kurious_kathy or the minister down the road my faith cannot be in god but only in a fellow human's description. A human and a description indistinguishable until I receive the revelation you say I cannot yet have from the human describing his disease-induced fantasy.

Then, when faith is rewarded, more comes easier:

I assume you mean "when," but regardless, I can assure you the same is true of atheism. Try it a while and you will find that joy comes easier, tolerance becomes natural, and humility is unavoidable.

Choose the one that fits you best and go forward from there. Look with faith, not doubt.

This advice is advice without substance.

Try them all. Experiment. See what you like.

I tried several, including Roman Catholicism and born-again christianity. Also the Carlos Castaneda stuff. Along with others.

Perhaps your faith wasn't great enough.

I've been through Prestwick airport twice. Does that make me a true enough Scot?

Even Christ was tempted by the Adversary. Don't you think you, too would be tempted?:

This is, again, asking me to rely on the revelation you say I cannot yet have.

God is an experience with is not differentiated from different people, even if we understand Him differently.

A comforting thought, empty of meaning.

It's conversation. Not always asking for goodies or assistance, like a help line, and not even always in praise. Sometimes it's just a "good morning", like you'd give the guy you pass on the street.

Good on you (seriously). When I believed, I often made myself pray this way as I thought it petty to pray only when asking for things or only when in church.

Oh, but it is.

Who doesn't like a genuine wish from someone to have a "good morning"?

If I change my wording to "Have an enjoyable time before the noon hour" is it still a prayer? If not, I think your argument falls apart. If so, I think your argument falls apart.

I suspect God would like it, too.

It is not comforting in the slightest to me that an omnipotent creature capable of the acts demonstrated in the OT can have his mood affected by whether or not one of the many many many billions of his creations remembers to utter a few words today.

Nope. When I say TGIF, I'm not even thinking of God (even though His Holy Name is part of that overused acronym).

Then I fail to see how you can say that "Good morning" is a prayer.

When I pray, it is consciously directed toward God or Christ.

Then I most certainly fail to see how you can say that "Good morning" is a prayer.

I even pray to Mary, the Mother of God, my guardian angel, and even deceased loved ones.

Even when I was actively RCC I never understood how this could be anything more than wishful thinking.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
If you base it on proof, or even require "conclusive evidence", it won't be faith.

Faith requires a lack of establishment. The less evidence there is, the more faith will be required to accept it.

I understand that concept but it overlooks the point. If there is no revelation first, then what am I having faith in?

The Word.

The concept.

I'm not having it in god, in whatever form or by whatever name, because I know nothing of god.

Maybe some study (along with reflection/prayer) can fix that.

If I listen to you or kurious_kathy or the minister down the road my faith cannot be in god but only in a fellow human's description.

And, like I've pointed out, there are a myriad of different human descriptions.

Which seems most likely to you?

A human and a description indistinguishable until I receive the revelation you say I cannot yet have from the human describing his disease-induced fantasy.

If that is what you believe, can you really wonder why no revelation comes?

Originally Posted by Huntster
Then, when faith is rewarded, more comes easier:

I assume you mean "when," but regardless, I can assure you the same is true of atheism.

I'm aware of that. Again:

To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Atheism isn't a positive. It's a negative. It's based on doubt; based on "no".

If the positive (God/faith) is removed, and that removal is solidified with a hardened heart, the "doubt" strengthens. It takes over, not only the spirit, but the mind.

Try it a while and you will find that joy comes easier, tolerance becomes natural, and humility is unavoidable.

Even if I could try it, I wouldn't.

I know better. It's way too dark for me. I like to see where I'm going.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Choose the one that fits you best and go forward from there. Look with faith, not doubt.

This advice is advice without substance.

Without substance?

There are many different religions out there. Here is a link to the 22 largest on Earth.

There's some "substance".

Originally Posted by Huntster
Try them all. Experiment. See what you like.

I tried several, including Roman Catholicism and born-again christianity. Also the Carlos Castaneda stuff. Along with others.

Did you check Taoism out? That might be helpful, if you don't like the personification of God.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Perhaps your faith wasn't great enough.

I've been through Prestwick airport twice. Does that make me a true enough Scot?

I have no idea. I've never been there.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Even Christ was tempted by the Adversary. Don't you think you, too would be tempted?:

This is, again, asking me to rely on the revelation you say I cannot yet have.

Is it?

Didn't you already rely on it by becoming atheist?

Originally Posted by Huntster
God is an experience with is not differentiated from different people, even if we understand Him differently.

A comforting thought, empty of meaning.

Why is it empty of meaning?

You have access to a dictionary. Look up the words. They have meaning.

Originally Posted by Huntster
It's conversation. Not always asking for goodies or assistance, like a help line, and not even always in praise. Sometimes it's just a "good morning", like you'd give the guy you pass on the street.

Good on you (seriously). When I believed, I often made myself pray this way as I thought it petty to pray only when asking for things or only when in church.

When young I was exposed to the advice to "pray unceasingly". I always wondered how boring it would be to be unceasingly reciting "Our Fathers", "Hail Marys", and "Glory Be's."

Of course, study, maturity, and revelation brought the meaning of the phrase to me. Even Taoism helped me understand what that meant.

I learned that it meant to focus your mind on God as much as possible. It's possible to pray while commuting. It's possible to pray while considering what to do next. It's possible to pray while enjoying a nice view. Etc.

Instead of "talking to oneself", one can "talk to God", and I do mean "talk"; not just reciting rote prayers, but "conversing".

Originally Posted by Huntster
Oh, but it is.

Who doesn't like a genuine wish from someone to have a "good morning"?

If I change my wording to "Have an enjoyable time before the noon hour" is it still a prayer?

I don't see why not, although that seems like a silly statement to make to a spiritual being.

If not, I think your argument falls apart.[/qutoe]

What kind of test is that?

Originally Posted by Huntster
I suspect God would like it, too.

It is not comforting in the slightest to me that an omnipotent creature capable of the acts demonstrated in the OT can have his mood affected by whether or not one of the many many many billions of his creations remembers to utter a few words today.

Oh. The anger thing. The "blame game", again.

Apparently, you won't be capable of what I am suggesting.

Sorry to waste our time.

Good luck.

 

[Tricky]

Okay. That's your opinion. That's your faith. I will not dispute it, although I have a healthy dose of skepticism.

I’m putting your revelation and mine on equal footing. I don’t have faith in either one.

I don't.

If not the imagination, where do you think my revelation came from? Can you tell me why you think your revelation was a message from God but mine wasn’t? And please don't say "faith". You make it sound like you don't use your brain at all, and I know that isn't true.

Yup. Sure does.

Then if the Lord works in mysterious ways, my revelation might be as correct as yours. For some mysterious reason.

I prefer to see it as the imagination overriding faith, then the hormones interrupting imaginative thought.

Yeah, I know what you prefer, but that doesn’t really make any difference as to what is true.

And for my money, there’s nothing like hormones to spur imaginative thought.

"Yes, or He wouldn't have created people like thaiboxerken."

LOL. Well, you know that Thai and I don’t read from the same book, but I do read his posts and try to understand why he thinks the way he thinks. You don’t read Kathy’s posts and you claim to not care what or how she thinks. Which method, would you say, makes one a more valid judge of truth?

I missed my calling. I should have been a stand-up comic.

Just my face can break people out in raucous laughter.

That might explain the beard.

I believe that, and it wasn't taken as an insult.

I’m glad. If I decide to insult you, I want it to be better than that.

I told no biological beings, except Mrs. Huntster and y'all (who don't know me from Adam). I haven't even shared it in a confessional.

Are they unaware that you had a revelation and that it involved the God of Christ? I find that unlikely, seeing as how you have told it to complete strangers. In any case, you have had support for the conclusions you drew as the result of your epiphany.

But lots of souls know...

Can you show me one?

I can't threaten you with Hell. Only you and God have authority over that.

You just did, except by proxy. You essentially said, “I can’t send you to hell, but God can and I’m tight with him.”

I don't know where your journey will take you. But I hope you enjoy it. All of it.

Thank you. I hope the same for you.
But, life being what it is, there will be parts I enjoy and parts I don’t. I work hard at maximizing the former and accepting the latter. I’m guessing you do the same. The only real difference is I don’t spend any time guessing as to what will maximize my enjoyment in some hypothetical afterlife designed by a God whose ways are mysterious and unfathomable.

I don't. I haven't even got mine.

But I've tried to make some reservations. I haven't gotten confirmation yet, but I've got faith...

Beware the eternal layover. You may not go anywhere. It’s all stand-by.

What is there to be afraid of?

To hear many Christians, there is fear of hell. You allude to it too.

With faith, fear is defeated.

With atheism, there is no fear that needs to be defeated. I like it better that way.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Beware the eternal layover. You may not go anywhere. It’s all stand-by.

Limbo.

To hear many Christians, there is fear of hell. You allude to it too.

How can one fear hell when one is with God? That makes no sense to me. Two things I don't fear: death and Hell. The IRS, on the other hand, can give me the willies.

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

If there is a heaven after death for christains, why do they do all that praying in the foxhole?

Paul

 

[Darth Rotor]

If there is a heaven after death for christains, why do they do all that praying in the foxhole?

Paul

They are praying for the shell to miss the foxhole, so they can get laid one more time (or one time) before they die.

Soldiers aren't stupid.

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

You can't get laid in heaven, that must be hell.

Paul

 

[Tricky]

How can one fear hell when one is with God?

One can fear that they are not with God. God is portrayed as unfathomable, so how can you know for sure that you are "with Him"? Also, every Christian will admit that we are all sinners. Catholics have formalized descriptions of unforgivable and "deadly" sins, and other Christians may fear that they haven't been properly repenetant. Every person raised Catholic that I know tells me that guilt was a big part of their upbringing. If there is no fear, then why is there guilt? Why is there confession? Why is there the concept of hell?

If you are truly without fear, then any concept of hell is totally unnecessary.

 

[Darth Rotor]

One can fear that they are not with God.

Got that so far.

God is portrayed as unfathomable, so how can you know for sure that you are "with Him"?

You know or you don't. This takes us to Faith, which I can't prove to you.

Also, every Christian will admit that we are all sinners.

Yessiree.

Catholics have formalized descriptions of unforgivable and "deadly" sins, and other Christians may fear that they haven't been properly repenetant. Every person raised Catholic that I know tells me that guilt was a big part of their upbringing.

OK, I follow you.

If there is no fear, then why is there guilt?

Mothers in law.

Why is there confession?

To be honest, face your sin, work through it, and go forth a bit better for it.

Why is there the concept of hell?

To wrap one's arms, and brain around, not being with God.

If you are truly without fear, then any concept of hell is totally unnecessary.

Only if Hell is being used as the only stick, which it isn't.

Disclaimer: Since I didn't grow up with all of that, I entered with the perception that Hell is the condition of "not with God."

*hey, what's that I smell burning?*

Oh, never mind, it's toast.

However wonderful, or not, Hell's conceptual and actual condition is for one's Faith, for movies and war games it's a wonderful setting for battling monsters and demons.

DR

 

[Tricky]

To be honest, face your sin, work through it, and go forth a bit better for it.

I call BS. What is the religious conseqence of NOT working through your sin. If it isn't religious, then why do you need a priest for confession?

To wrap one's arms, and brain around, not being with God.

BS BS BS!!!!! Not being with God is a punishment. It is to be feared. If it wasn't to be feared, why would you even care about being without God?

Only if Hell is being used as the only stick, which it isn't.

Stick=fear of punishment
This is my point. Christianity is all about fear of punishment.

I'm not saying fear of punishment isn't a useful tool. It is a lot of what our legal system is based on. Heck, it is a lot of what our morality is based on. But it is still a tool for obedience. It is not evidence of God. It is evidence of a need for morality in social contracts. When there are no police, use God as an enforcer.

Disclaimer: Since I didn't grow up with all of that, I entered with the perception that Hell is the condition of "not with God."

As I say, that is still punishment. Unless your perception is that "not with God" is perfectly okay.

*hey, what's that I smell burning?*

Oh, never mind, it's toast.

No, it's your arguments.

However wonderful, or not, Hell's conceptual and actual condition is for one's Faith, for movies and war games it's a wonderful setting for battling monsters and demons.

Indeed. We are much richer for our mythology.

Not too long ago, we had a poster who argued that "The Matrix" was an accurate description of reality. Why is his concept of reality any worse than Christianity? It had many of the same elements and exactly the same amount of evidence.