Workplace Chaplains

[drkitten]

As for the two positions you mentioned earlier, neither fits what I see and the optimal solution. I would prefer to see councilors with out all the religious baggage, with high quality psychiatric training.

... and an MD in every ambulance in the city. And bulletproof superheros in uniform, instead of humans who actually get hurt when shot.

What you would prefer to see apparently bears only a coincidental relationship with what is realistically achievable.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No, we can't. Being a qualified counselor requires an academic background entirely different from theology. If being a Chaplain required a degree in psychology, psychiatry, or other suitable counseling requirements, then we could argue that they are qualified counselors. Being a theologian no more qualifies one to treat Post Traumatic Stress Disorder than being a historian does.

ID, priests are not only theologins. You are trying to pigeonhole a profession based on your idea about them. Their practical duties require counselling as a skill, and they are trained and educated in it. Consider looking up the syllabus for the degrees drkitten mentions, rather than making the incorrect assumption that priests who attend seminary confine their studies to solely to theological matters.

The Church has to prepare its priests to minister to their flock, and while it may be called "pastoral" activity, its nature is counselling.

The Episcopalean Church requires not just academic study of counselling, but also hands on counselling before ordination, an internship if you will. My old friend who completed Episcopalean ordainment, but then left the church, had to intern for a year among Indians in South Dakota, where he acted mostly as a counsellor for alcohol abuse (according to his revelations to me) and for just under a year at St Elizabeth's Mental Hospital in Washington DC. (That's a place for insane people). Are all priests equally talented as counsellors, for all matters? Probably not. Neither are all psychologists.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

There's no reason why they should be treating anyone for anything in the first place. What is a military unit doing with a shaman around?

Providing the soldiers with buffs, what would you expect?

DR

WoW/RPG gaming reference in case anyone is wondering WTF that smart remark was based on.

 

[Garrette]

Sorry, PT, I misssed your earlier dismissal of the two alternatives.

I think you dismissal is untenable, though. As drk points out, it is tantamount to my first option. You just don't want to say it.

And Darth has it right about the qualifications.

Perhaps I should emphasize that I am an atheist. My unit knows I am an atheist. The chaplain we had until recently knew I was an atheist (the new one may or may not have been told by someone). And I have no problems with the chaplain being a counselor. I would have an issue with him acting as a psychologist, but not as a counselor.

They do not establish practices with repeat visits and group sessions.

They help people through hard times, and for the most part they are good at it and non-denominational about it.

 

[drkitten]

Perhaps I should emphasize that I am an atheist. My unit knows I am an atheist. The chaplain we had until recently knew I was an atheist (the new one may or may not have been told by someone). And I have no problems with the chaplain being a counselor. I would have an issue with him acting as a psychologist, but not as a counselor.

Since you're obviously more familiar with the direct military environment than I am, perhaps you can clear something else up, since my Google-fu isn't up to the task.

I pointed out -- sarcastically, I admit -- that firemen are EMTs because we don't have enough MD's to staff all the fire trucks, and because an EMT will do just fine at keeping you alive long enough to get you to the hospital where a real doctor can work on you. I similarly suggest that chaplains can do just fine at getting Private Jones to put down the pistol until the doc can arrive from the hospital.

The turtle pointed out that there are rules about what kind of things EMTs can do.

What are the rules about what chaplains can and can't do? You said "I would have an issue with [a chaplain] acting as a psychologist," but what are the regs and protocols regarding this issue? You're the battalion commander, and you think your chaplain is getting out of line and exceeding his training, his brief, and the demands of the situation. What are your options, and does the JAG have your back on this?

 

[Garrette]

Since you're obviously more familiar with the direct military environment than I am, perhaps you can clear something else up, since my Google-fu isn't up to the task.

I pointed out -- sarcastically, I admit -- that firemen are EMTs because we don't have enough MD's to staff all the fire trucks, and because an EMT will do just fine at keeping you alive long enough to get you to the hospital where a real doctor can work on you. I similarly suggest that chaplains can do just fine at getting Private Jones to put down the pistol until the doc can arrive from the hospital.

The turtle pointed out that there are rules about what kind of things EMTs can do.

What are the rules about what chaplains can and can't do? You said "I would have an issue with [a chaplain] acting as a psychologist," but what are the regs and protocols regarding this issue? You're the battalion commander, and you think your chaplain is getting out of line and exceeding his training, his brief, and the demands of the situation. What are your options, and does the JAG have your back on this?

For a technical and fully legal answer I would have to do some research.

A few quick points are in order, though:

1. Whatever authority might be vested in the chaplain by dint of being the chaplain can be limited by his commander (generally, the lowest level at which chaplains are assigned is battalion). So if I were the battalion commander and did not like what my chaplain was doing, regardless if the chaplain showed me beyond doubt it was within his training, I could and would still say "Doesn't matter. Stop."

2. Conversely, the chaplain is expected to act as the situation demands. The EMT analogy is a good one if you switch it to medics. Medics aren't MDs but when MDs aren't available and the situation is life-threatening, they have the legal right to perform surgeries normally limited to MDs.

 

[drkitten]

For a technical and fully legal answer I would have to do some research.

Not necessary -- the quick points are enough unless you really like reading DoD directives...

A few quick points are in order, though:

1. Whatever authority might be vested in the chaplain by dint of being the chaplain can be limited by his commander (generally, the lowest level at which chaplains are assigned is battalion). So if I were the battalion commander and did not like what my chaplain was doing, regardless if the chaplain showed me beyond doubt it was within his training, I could and would still say "Doesn't matter. Stop."

That's kind of what I thought. Which again suggests that a chaplain doesn't have an unfettered licence to woo up the soldiers and "cause harm."

2. Conversely, the chaplain is expected to act as the situation demands. The EMT analogy is a good one if you switch it to medics. Medics aren't MDs but when MDs aren't available and the situation is life-threatening, they have the legal right to perform surgeries normally limited to MDs.

Yeah, well, the army is practical like that. If the situation was bad enough, I suspect they would let a tank driver perform surgery. It's not like things can get any worse. Dead is dead.

 

[ponderingturtle]

... and an MD in every ambulance in the city. And bulletproof superheros in uniform, instead of humans who actually get hurt when shot.

What you would prefer to see apparently bears only a coincidental relationship with what is realistically achievable.

Got it. Clearly evidence based treatment is unachievable, so we need to get our chakra's in line and just accept bad treatments I see.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sorry, PT, I misssed your earlier dismissal of the two alternatives.

I think you dismissal is untenable, though. As drk points out, it is tantamount to my first option. You just don't want to say it.

So evidence based treatement is untennable.

 

[drkitten]

Got it. Clearly evidence based treatment is unachievable,

Um,. which part of "clergy are trained in [evidence-based] counselling" do you keep missing?

 

[Garrette]

So evidence based treatement is untennable.

It's still a non sequitur.

 

[Darth Rotor]

That's kind of what I thought. Which again suggests that a chaplain doesn't have an unfettered licence to woo up the soldiers and "cause harm."

Iindeed, Chaplains can be relieved of their duties, or reassigned, or subject to a number of disciplinary measures.

Two cases I am personally familiar with. The chaplain in our destroyer squadron was a detriment to morale. He upset as many people as he helped, and was eventually removed from his position by the DESRON commander. Some of us smart alecs used to parody the opening of his evening prayer, not too far from how he presented his words, as "Dear Lord, we are so miserable . . . "

More recently, I was a material witness to, and had to write a pair of witness statements regarding, the relief of a chaplain who was not just incompetent, but pretty much a drunk. After numerous complaints, one of them countersigned by myself and some other officers and NCO's, the senior chaplain in the area first counselled him. He collected a number of witness statements, and recommended to the commander that the chaplain in question be sent to the shrink for psychological evaluation. I don't know what happened to the man after he was removed from our base, but I am guessing he went to level III alcohol rehab.

Among other things, military chaplains refer people to psychologists/psychiatrists in the military medical corps. Those guys are in shorter supply per capita than chaplains, and tend to be available farther "in the rear" than chaplains.

I similarly suggest that chaplains can do just fine at getting Private Jones to put down the pistol until the doc can arrive from the hospital.

Or the MP's, depending on the situation.

DR

 

[ponderingturtle]

Since you're obviously more familiar with the direct military environment than I am, perhaps you can clear something else up, since my Google-fu isn't up to the task.

I pointed out -- sarcastically, I admit -- that firemen are EMTs because we don't have enough MD's to staff all the fire trucks, and because an EMT will do just fine at keeping you alive long enough to get you to the hospital where a real doctor can work on you. I similarly suggest that chaplains can do just fine at getting Private Jones to put down the pistol until the doc can arrive from the hospital.

The turtle pointed out that there are rules about what kind of things EMTs can do.

What are the rules about what chaplains can and can't do? You said "I would have an issue with [a chaplain] acting as a psychologist," but what are the regs and protocols regarding this issue? You're the battalion commander, and you think your chaplain is getting out of line and exceeding his training, his brief, and the demands of the situation. What are your options, and does the JAG have your back on this?

There are very strict rules about how EMT's are required to deal with various situations, do chaplins have such restrictions in the nature of their treatment and not just the scope of their treatment as well?

As an EMT, if I say violate the detailed protocal I am held responcible for that. Do chaplins have detailed protocal writen by psychaitrists to deal with thier patients?

 

[Garrette]

There are very strict rules about how EMT's are required to deal with various situations, do chaplins have such restrictions in the nature of their treatment and not just the scope of their treatment as well?

As do medics until the situation demands otherwise.

As an EMT, if I say violate the detailed protocal I am held responcible for that. Do chaplins have detailed protocal writen by psychaitrists to deal with thier patients?

I suspect they do but do not know with certainty.

I could research it, or if you don't mind waiting a week and a half, I could speak with my unit's chaplain when I go again. (He's the new guy who may or may not know I'm an atheist, so I can't guarantee the same quality response I would have guaranteed with our last chaplain).

 

[drkitten]

There are very strict rules about how EMT's are required to deal with various situations, do chaplins have such restrictions in the nature of their treatment and not just the scope of their treatment as well?

Garrette just answered that. Yes.

 

[drkitten]

Among other things, military chaplains refer people to psychologists/psychiatrists in the military medical corps. Those guys are in shorter supply per capita than chaplains, and tend to be available farther "in the rear" than chaplains.

I just wanted to stress this -- again -- because it's a point I've been trying to make for some time.

If you want to put an M.D. psychiatrist into every platoon and every watch on every destroyer.....

 

[Garrette]

If you want to put an M.D. psychiatrist into every platoon and every watch on every destroyer.....

He doesn't want to admit it, but it is the corner into which he is painted.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

From Army Regulation 165-1:



Although you may not attach any value or importance to military chaplaincy, as usual, your views diverge from those prevalent among people who actually know something about the subject at hand.

Ah, what is a conversation without blowhard nonsense from Ceo?

Many clergy meet academic or professional criteria as counselors. I daresay that for mainstream clergy it is the norm to have at least modest credentials in that area. [ETA: The clerical profession is not just about theology; counseling has almost always been an important aspect of it. Most professional training is geared towards the demands of the profession and the public's expections regarding the same; it should come as no surprise that this is true of seminaries and such.]

You're reinforcing my point. Chaplains are there to provide a religious function, not counseling. A chaplain could as easily be a priest as a minister, or a rabbi, or a Cheyenne shaman, or a Hopi sacred clown. Neither the requirements to become a chaplain nor their training make chaplains qualified counselors. They are there to liaise between military personnel and their choice leprechauns. A chaplain is more a qualified counselor than they are a qualified pilot or a qualified pastry chef.

"Many" is in this case a weasel word.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

He doesn't want to admit it, but it is the corner into which he is painted.

No, the position is that the counselor need not be a completely unqualified mystic.

 

[Garrette]

Ah, what is a conversation without blowhard nonsense from Ceo?





You're reinforcing my point. Chaplains are there to provide a religious function, not counseling. A chaplain could as easily be a priest as a minister, or a rabbi, or a Cheyenne shaman, or a Hopi sacred clown. Neither the requirements to become a chaplain nor their training make chaplains qualified counselors. They are there to liaise between military personnel and their choice leprechauns. A chaplain is more a qualified counselor than they are a qualified pilot or a qualified pastry chef.

"Many" is in this case a weasel word.

Yolu are misreading this to fit your bias. Whether this is intentional or not, I do not know, but I reiterate my suggestion that you step away until your emotions stop clouding your judgment.

No, the position is that the counselor need not be a completely unqualified mystic.

The counselor is not a completely unqualified mystic despite your protestations.

You know, ID, your disagreement need not be worded in a willfully ignorant and logically flawed fashion. Yet it is. It surprises me, because I have seen so much better from you elsewhere.