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Common Sense


Aw, and just as he was proving how DGI (domain-general incompetent) he was.

Physics, psychology... he was truly a Denaissance Man!



(Thanks to Anti-Sophist and Horatius for the truly desciptive terms!)
 
It makes logical sense, in a troofer kind of way.

Are you saying you understand troofer logic?

*Stands back, points at aggle-rithm and screeches in a Donald Sutherland, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" kind of way*
 
I think the problem is that people who present solid, compelling arguments often come across as being arrogant. And, of course, sometimes they are. Justifiably so, perhaps.

28CranialHoles and his ilk probably think that if they duplicate the arrogance, they duplicate the solid, compelling arguments.

It makes logical sense, in a troofer kind of way.

It's just another example of magical thinking. Like the homeopathy concept of "like cures like", it's sympathetic magic - if you take on the superficial attributes, you will magically acquire the substantive attributes.

I think this arises because of the fundamental complexity of modern science being so hard for some of these guys to understand. They think a TV "just works" due to some high-tech "wizardry", and figure it's all just mumbo-jumbo. And hey, one guy's mumbo-jumbo is a good as the next, right?
 
P.S. People in the truth movement can't even get any mainstream media to show the video of WTC 7 collapsing (minus one time) ... but you think they would have a firefighter on who claims he was told bombs were in WTC 7 building? The media wouldn't... for one - because they only have these "CTist" on, to teach the public how they should be viewed (character assassination) i.e. crazies on the fringe of society - you really think they would want to paint one of the 9/11 heros like that? No, they wouldn't... thus they would never have one on that claimed the official story is a lie.

But why would they have been told about the bombs if the building was being demolished as part of a devious plan do you think they would have told the fire department about it and had an evacuation. They already killed thousands in the 2 twin towers why bother evacuating.


you think on 9/11 - with the knowledge of terrorists attacks... that these rescue workers.. when told there were bombs in the building... should have been like - damn INSIDE JOB!

These workers probably never even thought twice about those events... they were told to evacuate the area... and they simply did their jobs - like heros... not terrorists.

They didn't think twice about the order when they were given it but wouldn't they have thought twice about it later if it was related to WTC 7 coming down.
 

Verrrrry interrrrrresting.

The timing of 28ths departure (however temporary it might prove to be) could be conincidence, but perhaps the truthers' pathologically low regard for humanity is something skpetics should be focusing on more and hitting harder in debates. The claim that thousands of firefighters are complicit in the murder of hundreds of their brethren, by remaining silent due to payoffs, threats, etc., is implicit in just about every 9/11 conspiracy theory out there. And it's one of the biggest reasons why so many rational people find those theories so objectionable.

Yet it rarely becomes the focus of debate, despite being mentioned frequently in passing. I can see why skeptics would be more comfortable grounding their arguments in the infallible laws of physics than in the courage of men and women who not infallibly, but so very often, do the right thing at great personal cost. Yet the latter might be the stronger argument.

Given that 28th has had his arguments contradicted many times before, and been called stupid and a liar many times before, without apparent effect, and given that afaik I'm not on his ignore list, I'm wondering if this:

Oh you poor poor guy. What kind of people have you been stuck living with all your life, to think things like that?

Find a new bar to go to, one where the people who you buy rounds for don't insult you behind your back and then find ways of letting you know they did it. Find a new job, where your co-workers don't blackmail you into doing their scutwork and then piss in your lunch pail. Tell that family of yours who would leave you the moment you had to switch to a lower-paying job that slavery's been abolished and they can look for another meal ticket. Get the hell out of whatever benighted hellhole you're in, pronto, and find some better people. They're out there.

...might actually have struck its intended target. (Though I don't suppose I'll ever know.)

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
It's almost impossible for 28th to quit. I don't know the rules for the 1,000,000 challenge but I am recieving psychic signals telling me 28th will be back. There is background interference in the message I can't make out if he/she will be back as 28th or maybe a reincarnation. Look for a screen name 29th something
 
Given that 28th has had his arguments contradicted many times before, and been called stupid and a liar many times before, without apparent effect, and given that afaik I'm not on his ignore list, I'm wondering if this:

Oh you poor poor guy. What kind of people have you been stuck living with all your life, to think things like that?

Find a new bar to go to, one where the people who you buy rounds for don't insult you behind your back and then find ways of letting you know they did it. Find a new job, where your co-workers don't blackmail you into doing their scutwork and then piss in your lunch pail. Tell that family of yours who would leave you the moment you had to switch to a lower-paying job that slavery's been abolished and they can look for another meal ticket. Get the hell out of whatever benighted hellhole you're in, pronto, and find some better people. They're out there.

Respectfully,
Myriad

...might actually have struck its intended target. (Though I don't suppose I'll ever know.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.

I'm sure some of them come to this mindset through honest mental illness, but there seems to be too many of them for that to be true of all. So I wonder how the others got to this state. It may very well be as you suggest, that through bad fortune or bad choices, they've found themselves in a little clique where everyone actually is like that.

And once they're convinced that the world is as they perceive it, it becomes self fulfilling - their constant quest to find out how some new person is trying to screw them makes them act in way that drives that new person away, or makes them into an enemy, even if they weren't inclined to be one at first.

When confronted by people who aren't like that, they get all confused, and lash out. Hopefully, they will eventually discover that the world is not so harsh, but that day may never come. For a lot of them, I fear it never will.
 
The claim that thousands of firefighters are complicit in the murder of hundreds of their brethren, by remaining silent due to payoffs, threats, etc., is implicit in just about every 9/11 conspiracy theory out there. And it's one of the biggest reasons why so many rational people find those theories so objectionable.

well, all one would need to do is find out how these "payoffs" could have been paid and would realize that there is nothing (no money trail) to explain any payoffs at all


How many firefighters work in the FDNY? how many of them are volunteers?

I dont think a firefighter would settle on just a couple grand to keep his/her mouth shut....And wouldn't you think that these firefighters who did get "paid off" would be showing some kind of behavior that would demonstrate that they came into some "money" and people around them would have questioned how a firefighter can suddenly afford their new house up north or that new car?

Seems that the truthers just focus on "one" day in this whole "conspiracy" yet do not look past 9/11/2001 to see if their theories are plausible (ie the behaviors of those who supposedly were involved)
 
It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.

They get this mindset from television, I think. TV shows are rife with conflict, because a lack of conflict is boring. Kind of like real life would seem, if we had no appreciation for the rich subtleties of reality.
 
They get this mindset from television, I think. TV shows are rife with conflict, because a lack of conflict is boring. Kind of like real life would seem, if we had no appreciation for the rich subtleties of reality.

But even TV has shows with good people. And even the shows with lots of conflicts usually have some heroes. These guys seem to believe everyone is a bastard, even in their own in-groups. Just take a look at how many of them start accusing others of being disinfo agents any time there's even a mild disagreement.
 
But even TV has shows with good people. And even the shows with lots of conflicts usually have some heroes. These guys seem to believe everyone is a bastard, even in their own in-groups. Just take a look at how many of them start accusing others of being disinfo agents any time there's even a mild disagreement.

Yes, they do seem to have a shared personality disorder, at the very least.

I once read a book by a psychologist who said that, at a very low level of brain function, we put all people into just a handful of categories, such as: someone for us to nurture, someone to nurture us, someone to have sex with, someone who is going to kill us. Whenever we see someone (or more accurately, perceive someone by whatever means), whether or not it is for the first time, the first thing the brain does is put the person into one of these categories. Then, the higher brain functions begin to sort out where the person belongs in more specific categories, such as: a woman->a relative->Aunt Margorie.

The book dealt primarily with marriage relationships, and the theory explained how a loving relationship can turn extremely hostile -- it's because the primative part of the brain decides that, if the person isn't going to nurture him, than she's going to kill him. Unless he kills her first, of course. The more emotional and less rational a relationship is, the more hostility is likely to develop.

It could be that the troofer's problem lies in their higher brain function. It doesn't appear to be all that good at getting past the primative initial categorization of people as either 1) an ally, or 2) a mortal enemy. Their paranoia tends to push everyone into the second group -- no doubt, to their own misfortune.
 
Why do you believe that Americans are unwilling to kill other innocent Americans? Why... when thousands of Americans kill thousands of other innocent Americans every year... do you think these murders are like, "Wait a second... I can't kill you... you're my fellow American."

Here's the problem... if you are a good person (which I would hope you to be) a patriot and an honorable man... than I can understand how it might be hard for you to believe that people are capable of murdering innocent people, whether foreigners or their own countrymen... for sheer profit and greed. Nonetheless, do not project this good-heartedness onto others (especially the extremely elite and powerful) for that is naive of you to think that other people can't be filled with this heartless cruelty...just because you're not. Some individuals will kill any and everyone (regardless if it's their own countrymen) if it brings them more wealth and power... and that's a well documented fact throughout history.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth. I'm not saying that if you have political beliefs associated with these parties that you are scum... and, I'm not talking about conservative and liberal beliefs per se... I'm talking about the elected individuals (politicians) who manipulate the American people and their morals and values, by projecting this phony image in the media... that preys on their good-heartedness.

The most powerful men throughout history have always been the most barbaric... it has been that way since the beginning of time and it will continue to be that way... And, if that's true... than why can you believe that rulers from other countries will murder their own innocent people, but can't believe that elements within the USG are willing to kill its own people?

I think you are blinded by your patriotism...but, trust me - these men responsible for 9/11 are not your fellow countrymen...nationalism means absolutely nothing to them... they only answer to two things, and that is money and power.
Did you receive a Logical Fallacy of the Day calendar for Christmas?
 
It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.

I'm sure some of them come to this mindset through honest mental illness, but there seems to be too many of them for that to be true of all. So I wonder how the others got to this state. It may very well be as you suggest, that through bad fortune or bad choices, they've found themselves in a little clique where everyone actually is like that.

And once they're convinced that the world is as they perceive it, it becomes self fulfilling - their constant quest to find out how some new person is trying to screw them makes them act in way that drives that new person away, or makes them into an enemy, even if they weren't inclined to be one at first.

When confronted by people who aren't like that, they get all confused, and lash out. Hopefully, they will eventually discover that the world is not so harsh, but that day may never come. For a lot of them, I fear it never will

If this is the case, then it puts the matter into a different perspective for me, at least as far as some of these individuals are concerned. People should be accountable for their words and actions, of course. But it doesn't take Dr. Phil (let alone a real psychologist) to conjecture that someone who believes that every physician would withhold a universal cure to save his or her job, might have been treated very badly by other people during his life.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
But it doesn't take Dr. Phil (let alone a real psychologist) to conjecture that someone who believes that every physician would withhold a universal cure to save his or her job, might have been treated very badly by other people during his life.

Respectfully,
Myriad


I'm getting to the point where I think 28th is seriously ill. Maybe not Christophera level crazy, but as you point out, some who can believe that doctors would knowing allow patients to suffer and die just to save their jobs, isn't really all there. What the cause is, is unclear, as is a solution. What is clear is we can't do anything about it, he has to want to change it himself.

We can only hope that by pointing out his mistakes, we bring him to a point where he decides to really sit down and reconsider his ideas of how things work.
 
28K depends so much on his perception of common sense he can't take in experts opinions. At some point he seemed to be making some progress, but then would suddenly revert back to his 'buildings just don't fall that way without explosives' thoughts.

Its like trying to tell the guy who buys an amp that just because the volume knob goes to 11, does not mean it louder than the one that goes to 10. He pauses, seems to get it, then says 'but it goes to 11'.

When you hear this joke, the guy is usually the drummer, but you'll get no Ad Hominum from me. :D
 
I'm gonna post this here, and hope that it's the right place. Use it as a check list or "Bingo Card" to determine how deep the woo-woo has become.

Pseudo-Scientists:

- Accept claims and reports that describe well-understood objects behaving in strangely as literally true, when those same reports turn out to have been deliberate frauds, honest mistakes, garbled accounts, misinterpretations, outright fabrications, and stupid blunders.
- Aim their literature at the general public, rather than at educated professionals.
- Always exposed by a reduction to absurdity of their claims.
- Appeal to distrust of established facts and authority.
- Appeal to emotion, or make claims that have emotional appeal.
- Appeal to false authority, or claim that established authority can not be trusted.
- Appeal to novelty, believing that the mere newness of the claim validates the claim itself.
- Appeal to sentimentality.
- Appeal to the human interest in "Magic" and "Miracles."
- Appeal to the scientific criteria of truth while simultaneously denying its validity.
- Are fond of imaginary conspiracies.
- Argue from alleged exceptions, errors, anomalies, strange events, and suspect claims.
- Argue from ignorance (they don't know what they don't know, and expect others to be the same way).
- Argue from irrelevancies.
- Assume inexplicable influences and connections between things from the beginning ("Spurious Similarities").
- Attempt to imitate the jargon of scientists, engineers, and technicians by usuing "technobabble" gibberish that sounds as if it may be scientific to non-scientists.
- Attempt to persuade with meaningless rhetoric, propaganda, and misrepresentation.
- Avoid putting their claims to any meaningful tests.
- Base their claims on an incomplete understanding of natural laws.
- Claims that statements by scientists are open to alternative, equally valid interpretations.
- Treat scientific literature as one might consider a novel or a painting ("Subjective Interpretation").
- Claim that the results of their experiments appear only under certain vaguely specified but vital conditions.
- Deliberately impose mysteries where none exist.
- Depend upon arbitrary conventions of human culture (customs, names, labels, traditions, et cetera) to validate their claims or to provide the basis for their claims.
- Discourage calls for review, adherance to standards, pre-publication verification, accuracy, and precision in their published studies.
- Display indifference to established facts.
- Display indifference to the validity of evidence.
- Do not progress beyond their claims.
- Emphasize unverifyable accounts, such as anecdotes, apocrypha, hearsay, legends, myths, rumors, stories, "tall tales," and testimonials to validate their claims.
- Expect belief in spite of the facts, not because of them.
- First claim a theory, then look for evidence to support it.
- Ignore all findings that contradict their conclusions.
- Ignore or rationalize away their own contradictions
- Invent their own ambiguous and imprecisely defined vocabulary, and use words that have no definition at all.
- Make claims and advance theories that contradict what is known about nature.
- Make up pseudo-facts as needed to support their claims (Straw man fallacies).
- Offer no practical advantage to believing their claims.
- Provide no evidence that their claims are true.
- Publish studies that are so vaguely described that one can't figure out what was done or how it was done.
- Publish studies that ignore simplicity in favor of complex explanations that are often convoluted and self-contradictory, as well.
- Rarely, if ever, abandon their original idea or revise their claims, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
- Rarely, if ever, carry out careful and methodical experiments themselves.
- Rarely, if ever, check their sources.
- Rarely, if ever, correctly interpret or apply genuine scientific literature.
- Rarely, if ever, discard or modify old concepts in the light of new discoveries.
- Rarely, if ever, discover or study natural processes.
- Rarely, if ever, discover something new.
- Rarely, if ever, follow up on their own experiments ("It worked once, and that's good enough!").
- Rarely, if ever, make an independent investigation.
- Rarely, if ever, propose new theories.
- Rarely, if ever, refer to genuine scientific literature.
- Rely heavily on anachronistic thinking (The older the idea, the more attractive it is, especially if the idea is transparently wrong and has long been discarded by science).
- Rely heavily on circular reasoning.
- Rely heavily on subjective validation (coincidence and false cause fallacies).
- Rely on the research of others while simultaneously down-playing its validity.
- Shift the burden of proof to the dissenting side ("You can't prove me wrong, so I must be right!").
- Take a casual approach to evidence.
- Try to convert people to their point of view, rather than convince them that their point of view is valid.
- Try to rationalize their beliefs.
- Uncover little or no new information.
- Use "Science can't explain everything" to justify their pseudo-science in the light of inconvenient facts.
- Use stories or parables to explain events, without a description of the underlying physical processes.
- Usually, if not always, expound on phenomena well-known to scientist, and little-known to the general public.
- Usually, if not always, ignore the results of genuine scientific research.

It usually takes only one of these assertions to be true to expose a claim as pseudo-science, fraud, or "woo-woo." Unfortunately for 28K, Robinson, and their ilk, once is never enough.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

(PS: I know some of these statements are redundant repetitions of others, and that some seem to contradict others, as well. Please review and correct; or feel free to add a few observations of your own. -FoD-)
 
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28th, I thought I'd ask this once again because I haven't had a full reply before. Simple question.

What is the motive for controlled demolition of the towers?

I'm not asking why someone would fly planes into them I'm asking why CD afterwards. I think the most clear response I've had so far is that if the towers were allowed to partially collapse through the collision and fires then it would have left behind dangerous evidence. I then asked.

What dangerous evidence?

I got no reply.

Do you think you could answer either or both of these questions again for me?

Thank you for your time.
 
When has this happened and/or been caught on tape? When has a high-rise building completely collapsed to the ground (in seconds) outside of a CD?

So there IS nothing new under the sun ?

Say this 18-wheeler plowed full speed into a 4 foot (thick) steel wall... what would happen to the 18 wheeler? It would either stop dead in its tracks...or it would ricochet off to the side (path of least resistance)

:jaw-dropp

PFFt...t...ff......PFFwhahahahahahahahah!!

You've never seen a crash test where the car impacts a wall and then ricochets off to the side? Come on...man, don't make me youtube it.

Oohh.. no, no, please. Not Youtube!!

There are workers from the Twin Towers who claim they heard and saw lots of weird activity pre 9/11. (I know... you're talking about WTC 7 and not 1 & 2 - I've really caught on to all of your little deceptive word games) Did all of the companies in these three buildings (WTC 1, 2, 7) have people there 24 hours... or was there a good chunk of time when most of the people had left for the day? Please, no speculation... I need proof.

How do you manage to contradict yourself in the SAME paragraph is beyond me.

Are you kidding? The entire buildings exploded:

No, they didn't. You have no idea what "explosion" means.

I have stated why so many people compare the collapses of WTC 1, 2, 7 to controlled demolitions...

Why is it that every time someone demolishes your argument, instead of responding to them you start a new question ?

and that is because the only other time in history where we have seen images of tall buildings falling/crumbling to the ground in seconds is during a CD.

"The only time that I've seen someone die is due to a heart attack. Therefore, this man with a bullet hole in his head MUST have died from a particularily VIOLENT form of heart attack."

And, also by claiming that... "pull" or "pulling" isn't a term used in CD. Well... fair enough... but these three demolitions weren't CD, so that's not a completely accurate application of facts.

That's a very convenient weasel-dodge you've just done, there.

"Pull" is only used in demolition terms to describe pulling a building down with cables.

Why are you avoiding all of the great points I made in response to your post:

Oh, the irony.

Er... no. Ask an engineer. Or a physician. Or a grade-school kid.

Hahahahahaha... No emphasis necessary.

So I take it you DON'T have more knowledge than a grade-school kid in these matters ?
 

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