Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Are you an atheist or a Satanist?

Yes

You can't be both, can you?:

Atheism:

–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Satanism:

-noun
1. the worship of Satan or the powers of evil.
2. a travesty of Christian rites in which Satan is worshiped.
3. diabolical or satanic disposition, behavior, or activity.

 

[Darth Rotor]

How can it be seen as perfect other than through what appears to be your lens of "it must be perfect if it exists and the creator is perfect?"


Are you suggesting that a triply omni creator could not have created a model without them?


The fact that neither love nor other aspects of creation are different is the point. It argues against a triple-omni creator.


I don't write as clearly as some, and my skills in logic and philosophy fall far short of many on this board, but I do not see how I am failing to communicate this point.

You are communicating to me as clearly as the topic requires. The belief that any of this is easy is one position that I don't ascribe to.

While I may not hold you in the same regard as your kids (per your sig), you are aces high with me.

DR

 

[kurious_kathy]

It is the documented foundation of the Christian faith.

If faith comes by hearing the word of the Lord, then at what point does that persons faith manifest or become real?

To me it is obvious that until someone receives Jesus and has the born again experience the word doesn't become alive and active in them. Do you have any other observations on this?

If we break it down a bit more I'd have to put it this way...Some may be believers, but aren't discipled yet and that bothers me. We are not called to be just hearers of the word, but doers.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Of course, everyone's entitled to their opinion...

No, everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.

 

[Paulhoff]

If faith comes by hearing the word of the Lord, then at what point does that persons faith manifest or become real?

The biggest problem with the three main religions is that they all say that they are the only way to their so-called god, way too many people have died and are still dieing because of these very limited ideas on worshiping their so-called. This one way idea is like telling your child there is only one road and way to get to grand mom’s house, and that there is only one real kind of tree.

So KK, what is wrong with your so-called god, is it so limited that it as only one way to it, but that the same time all things in the universe are not limited to having only one way of being like stars, planets, moons and living things, and your so-called god has only one way, like I said before you have nothing but a childless so-called idea of a god like too many other's on this planet.

Paul

 

[Garrette]

It is the documented foundation of the Christian faith.

Thank you for answering.

So the bible is not a manual of any sort.

It is not consistently factual.

It is written in such a way that many, many denominations of conflicting belief emerge from it.


So it's true value is just that it says "Christ is real. Become Christian." ?

Not trying to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Garrette]

While I may not hold you in the same regard as your kids (per your sig), you are aces high with me.

Thank you. Sincere dittos.

 

[Garrette]

kurious_kathy,

Thank you for your responses. I respect that you keep coming back, and I think you are sincere.

I must, however, agree with what several others have said and conclude that you are incapable of comprehending what others posters say in response and that you are incapable of seeing flaws in your thinking, even when those flaws don't challenge your core belief.

For that reason, and because others have responded with what comments with which I mostly agree, and because I have to ration on which topics I spend my time, I will bow out of my exchange with you.

Best wishes.

 

[Ossai]

kurious_kathy

The other point of view I heard for the first time yesterday by a Calvery Chapel pastor was that Jesus didn't look like himself after the suffering He went through. Imagine how much different you would look after a beating like that.

Or it could have been someone else claiming to be Jesus. Or it may not have happened at all.

Jesus showed Himself to thousands of people, that's pretty hard to deny.

Really, where exactly did he show himself to thousands after the reported resurrection?

Well His return is yet to come and once that happens the reign on earth will surely be something. So point taken not all prophecies have taken place yet, but most have.

Apparently you still don’t understand. The prophecies are to declare to the world who the messiah is. They are not an after the fact occurrence. The messianic prophecies were not fulfilled, not by Jesus or anyone else for that matter. What prophecies do you believe have taken place, list specifics please.

If either lineage (they’re both different) reported in the bible for Jesus is correct then God directly excluded Jesus from the Davidic lineage.

Well that's a big fat lie from the pit if I ever heard one!

Nope.

Portions of the Davidic genealogical list from: (bolding mine)

Matthew:
Jeconiah
Salathiel
Zerrubbabel
Adiud

Luke:
Addi
Melchi
Shealtiel (same as Salathiel)
Zerrubbabel
Rhesa

Let me mention the obvious biblical error first.
(bible quotes from New International Version)
According to Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus being of Davidic decent is necessary to fulfill one of the requirements for the messiah. However, the genealogies given in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 both try to link Jesus to David through Joseph. Revelant parts below
Matthew 1: 15-16
Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23-24
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

The Catholics do some hand waving and claim the genealogy of Matthew is for Mary, however a direct reading (translation) proves that claim incorrect.

It would appear the genealogical lists were written by people that as Dr X said, “not thinking that their works would end up in the same canon”?

Back to the main point. Yahweh didn’t like the Jehoakim clan of which Zerrubbabel was a member, reference Chronicles 3:16-19 and Ezra 3:2.
Yahweh ordered the removal of that particular line from the lineage of David. (bolding mine)

Jeremiah 22: 28-30
Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot,
an object no one wants?
Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?

O land, land, land,
hear the word of the LORD!

This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

The Davidic line was just broken by Yahweh.
But wait, there’s more.

Jeremiah 36: 27-32
After the king burned the scroll containing the words that Baruch had written at Jeremiah's dictation, the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: "Take another scroll and write on it all the words that were on the first scroll, which Jehoiakim king of Judah burned up. Also tell Jehoiakim king of Judah, 'This is what the LORD says: You burned that scroll and said, "Why did you write on it that the king of Babylon would certainly come and destroy this land and cut off both men and animals from it?" Therefore, this is what the LORD says about Jehoiakim king of Judah: He will have no one to sit on the throne of David; his body will be thrown out and exposed to the heat by day and the frost by night. I will punish him and his children and his attendants for their wickedness; I will bring on them and those living in Jerusalem and the people of Judah every disaster I pronounced against them, because they have not listened.' "
So Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to the scribe Baruch son of Neriah, and as Jeremiah dictated, Baruch wrote on it all the words of the scroll that Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire. And many similar words were added to them.


Jehoiakim angered Yahweh to the point that he and his lineage were cast out of the Davidic lineage. Therefore in both Matthew and Luke the genealogies listed for Jesus are broken and Jesus cannot claim Davidic decent, as per Yahew’s direct reported orders.

Search the scripture and your heart and tell me which ones you believe are accurate? It's the work of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and understanding.

No, sorry but you don’t get out of it that easily. I requested, from you, a listing of all messianic prophecies in the bible. If you bother to look, they are all clearly spelled out. Once you have that list, compare it to the once you keep using and see which ones match and which ones you’ve been using are just twisted meaning bible verses.

“What is righteous about forcing someone to do something and then punishing them for doing it?”

Could you give me an example of what you are questioning here?

Ok, let’s take a look at one example, David.
II Samuel 24
Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

Something that Yahweh had earlier specifically forbidden. David orders the census and upon completion is given a choice of three calamities to fall upon Israel. So god sent a plague.
II Samuel 15
So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

No, I'm making a point. I have still much to learn.

Point made, now how about answering the question. Have you actually read the bible?

So you believe that all Christians should practice abortion. After all, that ensures the baby goes to heaven instead of being born and possibly winding up in hell.

No. I don't know how you could even twist what I said to make this statement. Abortion is murder and I hope people will choose to stop doing that. If it's evil I'm gona call it so. Abortion is evil!

No twisting needed.

Premise (these are yours)
1. Heaven is greater than Hell
2. All babies (including embryos) automatically go to heaven
3. All people die a physical death
4. Righteous people suffer as much if not more than others
5. God is all-loving (omnibenevolent)
Therefore, the Christian thing to do is to ensure as many people go to heaven as possible with as little suffering as possible. The way to ensure this is to get pregnant as many ties as possible and have as many abortions as possible.

This reply has gotten a bit long. I’ll post the rest latter.

Ossai

 

[Ossai]

Darth Rotor

The idea that creating a multitude of perfect, and perfectly happy, clones is somehow the embodiment of perfection rather puzzles me. How is that The Answer, unless one is Aldous Huxley?

Ah, but god doesn’t have to make clones. Each creation could have an individual personality.

To achieve perfect, (consider a cosmic six sigma model, if you like) you'd approach the cloning of a completely optimized specimine, or at least do so asymptotically. Given that the omnipotent doesn't have to worry about the problems of diminishing returns, or economies of scale, perhaps that's not a big issue, but it still approaches uniformity as you approach "perfection."

Nope, you’re limiting omnipotence with that answer. Remember god has the power to set the universe up however he wanted. This universe may force a uniformity as perfection is approached, however if the universe was set up differently that issue would be eliminated.

2. If they're perfectly happy, what would be wrong with being clones?

It would not be life as you and I know it, for starters, so I have no idea how to answer that.

And the difference between perfectly happy clones and heaven is what?

You can't take love, you can't force love. (You can force fear, movement, and behavior under duress, but things like sincere thanks and love, and a sincere apology only come from within.)

Again, you’ve just removed omnipotence.

So it appears. How is that not perfect, if that is how it is designed, other than seen through what appears to be your lens of "it can't be perfect if there is any pain/misery associated with it?"

Conflict, tension, or opposition, seems to me an integral part of the model in question. Why should love be any different?

That is the problem. You’re stuck thinking about one model.

kurious_kathy

Yes but first we must believe that He is. It truly is a test a faith.

You can’t believe until you believe because it’s based on ignorance. Thanks that really clears things up.

Pleae list them, but do as Ossai has suggested and list them in context. You will find, if you're honest, that the prophecies have not been accurate.

I've posted them plenty on other threads.

No, actually you haven’t posted the messianic prophecies. At most you referenced a few twisted bible verses but didn’t actually post the prophecies.

Well if you've been rebellious and evil all your life what do you expect? God gives everyone ample time to turn from their wickedness and sin.

And we’re back to aborting babies as the most Christian thing you could possibly do.

We know the one true God through His Son, Jesus.

Jesus never actually claims to be the son of god. Others make that claim after his death.

No, God didn't make anyone that way. People choose whether they will believe Him or not. Why is it when people find theirselves on the wrong side of right they just don't switch sides?

Incorrect again. (New International Version)
Prior to birth (one could even argue conception) god blesses some and condemns others.
Romans 9: 10-13
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

And had them explained there, too, about how they aren't prophecies at all, or at least how they are not accurate prophecies.

Oh yes they are, and very well documented too.

Same song, different verse. Post what you are calling prophecies in context and then post what is declared in the bible as the messianic prophecies.

Corrected:

Many Christians have also found this to be true and been converted to Islam,

Well I guess God has a purpose for everything He allows or wills.

Oh, the god works in mysterious ways cop-out. We haven’t heard that one in what, a page.

Satan in the bible is consistently truthful; god is not.

Yah, The truth is Satan is a big, fat, ugly, liar. Don't be deceived, God is not mocked!

Again, your ignorance of what is actually in the bible is glaringly apparent. What is reported as being said by Satan, invariably turns out to be true.


Huntster

When nothing of substance can be achieved with interaction with specific people (like you), I might as well have a few kicks by screwing around.

Considering that the lack of substance in so many of your conversations with various people, you may want to consider the common variable and look to it for the source of the difficulties.

It's history is the best we've got of those eras/events.

Assertion, now offer some evidence.

Of course, some want to throw it out simply because of it's reference to God, and you're quite welcome to do so.

Funny how it’s you that keep telling me that that I want to throw the bible out. Yet, I don’t recall ever saying such.

I don't ignore the "entire basis of the religion."

Really, then upon what do you base your religious beliefs and why don’t they match what is reported in the bible or derived by the Catholic church?

Ossai

 

[The Atheist]

You can't be both, can you?:

Actually, I think you can, as long as Satan isn't a god. I'm certainly not, however.

 

[Tanstaafl]

I'm at least glad that there is a theist who sees the atheist/satanist contradiction.

It gets tiresome encountering people who assume that an atheist is automatically a satanist, as illogical as that is. And contradictory, assuming that satan is some kind of deity.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It is the documented foundation of the Christian faith.

If faith comes by hearing the word of the Lord, then at what point does that persons faith manifest or become real?

Sometimes never:

All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him." Turning to the disciples in private he said, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I say to you, many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it."

To me it is obvious that until someone receives Jesus and has the born again experience the word doesn't become alive and active in them. Do you have any other observations on this?

Yes. I'm not sure if "born again" is the sole criteria.

There are several citations that clearly illustrate that people are chosen:

It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. This I command you: love one another. If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.

And some of us are even more unworthy than others to be so chosen. Like me.

I cannot explain it, but I am thankful for it.

If we break it down a bit more I'd have to put it this way...Some may be believers, but aren't discipled yet and that bothers me. We are not called to be just hearers of the word, but doers.

I don't know.

It's when I think "I know" that appears to get me in trouble. And it appears that when I don't do what I'm supposed to, the opportunity to do it right will 'get delivered' hard. The message will become abundantly clear.

I may be slow, but eventually I get with the program.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It is the documented foundation of the Christian faith.

Thank you for answering.

You're welcome.

So the bible is not a manual of any sort.

Not in my opinion.

It is not consistently factual.

I cannot know.

It is written in such a way that many, many denominations of conflicting belief emerge from it.

Many, many denominations of conflicting belief emerge from virtually everything.

People are different.

So it's true value is just that it says "Christ is real. Become Christian." ?

Not to me.

It's true value to me is the story it tells about the Nazarean. And if it's true (which I believe it is), it's an incredible story of how God came to establish a New Covenant with Man; so different from the previous "law" that the clergy itself became it's greatest enemy.

Incredible, actually.

 

[Garrette]

I cannot know. [If the bible is consistently factual]

Do you assume it is?

Many, many denominations of conflicting belief emerge from virtually everything.

One would hope it would not be so with the word of god. It makes it difficult to decide which interpretation is correct.

People are different.

Made that way, it seems.

It's true value to me is the story it tells about the Nazarean. And if it's true (which I believe it is), it's an incredible story of how God came to establish a New Covenant with Man; so different from the previous "law" that the clergy itself became it's greatest enemy.

How do you know that part of the bible is one of the factual parts?

Incredible, actually.

I agree.

 

[Huntster]

When nothing of substance can be achieved with interaction with specific people (like you), I might as well have a few kicks by screwing around.

Considering that the lack of substance in so many of your conversations with various people, you may want to consider the common variable and look to it for the source of the difficulties.

I have:

I'm exchanging barbs with a gang of fools.

Quote:
It's history is the best we've got of those eras/events.

Assertion, now offer some evidence.

Offer some historical accounts which differ.

Of course, some want to throw it out simply because of it's reference to God, and you're quite welcome to do so.

Funny how it’s you that keep telling me that that I want to throw the bible out. Yet, I don’t recall ever saying such.

Oh. Forgive my mistake.

What should be done with the Bible, in your opinion?

I don't ignore the "entire basis of the religion."

Really, then upon what do you base your religious beliefs

The Bible and RCC doctrine.

....and why don’t they match what is reported in the bible or derived by the Catholic church?

They do.......whether or not you agree.

You weren't a biblical author, you're not God, and you're not the Pope.

I don't have to give a damn whatsoever what you say, and guess what?.........

I don't.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
You can't be both, can you?:

Actually, I think you can, as long as Satan isn't a god.

Or supernatural being.

I'm certainly not, however.

I'm glad to hear that.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I cannot know.

[If the bible is consistently factual]

Do you assume it is?

Nope.

I believe it is.

Originally Posted by Hunster
Many, many denominations of conflicting belief emerge from virtually everything.

One would hope it would not be so with the word of god.

I'm sorry to be the one who shines the light on that reality for you.

I would have thought it was obvious.

It makes it difficult to decide which interpretation is correct.

They're pretty close. Choose the one you like the best and go with it.

Squabbling over details will kill you. Like they say, the devil in the details.........

Originally Posted by Hunster
People are different.

Made that way, it seems.

Yup.

That damned free will stuff, again.............

Originally Posted by Huntster
It's true value to me is the story it tells about the Nazarean. And if it's true (which I believe it is), it's an incredible story of how God came to establish a New Covenant with Man; so different from the previous "law" that the clergy itself became it's greatest enemy.[/qutoe]

How do you know that part of the bible is one of the factual parts?[/qutoe]

I don't.

Like I wrote, "I believe it is".

 

[Garrette]

Fair enough, Huntster. Tell me if I'm right:

You have chosen christianity (or chosen to remain with it if you were raised that way) because it comforts you. It comforts you because you have been able to pick the parts you like and disregard the rest.

I think that sounds as if I am being critical; I'm not. As a personal position it's absolutely fine. It only becomes an issue if you decide that it is a solid basis from which to proselytize.

 

[The Atheist]

Or supernatural being.

Actually, I had this discussion with Darth. Since atheist = lack of belief in god/s, a person can be an atheist and hold superntural beliefs. Mark Twain is an excellent example; he was an atheist, but was 100% superstitious. That's where Darth's quote came from - Atheism is no guarantee against stupidity.

I know atheists who believe in astrology. Takes all kinds.

I'm glad to hear that.

No worries, I was just trying to play with KK, but she didn't take the bait. Bible literalists like to forget that kind of stuff as they simply cannot answer it. If they insist the bible is true, then god lies and Satan tells the truth.

Go figure.

And I have a small bone to pick with you!

You made this comment:

I'm exchanging barbs with a gang of fools.

I trust that refers to fools in the biblical sense of refusing to believe the word of god?

If so, I'm happy to accept that. Otherwise, it's pistols at dawn! Well, a pistol for you and an FN carbine for me, starting at 200 paces, anyway.