• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

survival after death

Ashles said:
I can imagine scenarios in the past and future without me in.
Click to expand...

No, you cannot. If you imagine something then you are the observer. If you are the observer then you are part of that scenario.

I am happy to argue this point, but so far nobody has grasped it.
 
Ashles said:
Well this is going nowhere fast.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. I have provided my argument as to why I believe imagination of a situation without the observer is impossible. Do you have any other argument but "I can! I can!"?
 
baron said:
My thoughts exactly. I have provided my argument as to why I believe imagination of a situation without the observer is impossible. Do you have any other argument but "I can! I can!"?
Click to expand...
Well your entire argument consists of the fact that you cant.
I can, so where else is the discussion going?

I can for example imagine the moment of my birth. Hoe could I do that without taking a position external to myself?
 
baron said:
My thoughts exactly. I have provided my argument as to why I believe imagination of a situation without the observer is impossible. Do you have any other argument but "I can! I can!"?
Click to expand...

Well I find I agree with you but damned if I know how to explain it!
 
baron said:
Similarly, it is not possible to imagine a world that does not contain us, because to do so we would need to put ourselves in the role of observer, and once we do that the original premise of a world in which we don't exist is destroyed.
Click to expand...
'Observer' does not equate 'us' IMO.
 
baron said:
No, you cannot. If you imagine something then you are the observer. If you are the observer then you are part of that scenario.

I am happy to argue this point, but so far nobody has grasped it.
Click to expand...

I presume you would say that it is possible for person B to imagine person A imagining situation X.

I presume also you would say that it is impossible for person A to imagine person A imagining situation X, but because person A is now observing himself doing some imagining.

If so, then the implication of your claim is that you cannot have a belief about the possibilty of your own imagining situation X. Which also seems to imply you cannot have any beliefs at all. It is impossible for person A to imagine their having a belief, therefore its impossible for them to have any belief at all!
 
Ashles said:
Well your entire argument consists of the fact that you cant.
I can, so where else is the discussion going?

I can for example imagine the moment of my birth. Hoe could I do that without taking a position external to myself?
Click to expand...

Now I see the root of your misunderstanding. I am not referring to the physical "you" being an observer. I am talking about your consciousness.

If I imagine a scene in the past then of course I can envisage it without the physical me being present. However, the fact I am imagining a scene means that I am envisioning a view onto the scene from a point in space. I might imagine experiencing sound or even physical sensation such as cold, regardless of the fact I do not include my physical self as part of the scenario.

All of these things require me - my consciousness - to be the oberserver. If I were not the observer then I could not observe and therefore I could not imagine. Logically therefore I cannot imagine a situation where I am not the observer. I cannot imagine my non-existance.

It's worthwhile recapping on my original point, as it's been a while. I was saying that because it is impossible for anybody to imagine their own non-existence then I suggest that nobody completely believes that there will come a point when they cease to exist. They can deduce such a point via logic, and postulate such a point via application of evidence and reason, but they cannot imagine it, and so their conviction must remain incomplete.
 
Last edited:
Mangafranga said:
I presume also you would say that it is impossible for person A to imagine person A imagining situation X, but because person A is now observing himself doing some imagining.
Click to expand...

That is correct. Thinking about thinking, the secret of "high consciousness", some would have you believe.

Mangafranga said:
If so, then the implication of your claim is that you cannot have a belief about the possibilty of your own imagining situation X
Click to expand...

No it isn't, because again you have confused belief with imagination. I can believe anything. I cannot imagine anything.
 
It is my contention that the Church of England is considered an expert in this matter as well as the Roman Catholic Church, various Mosques and synogoues exist in Britain as well. Are their opinions not allowed or something?
 
And if anyone can point out my self-contradiction through poor use of words I'll give them a coconut. I'll let it stand, though.
 
baron said:
That is correct. Thinking about thinking, the secret of "high consciousness", some would have you believe.



No it isn't, because again you have confused belief with imagination. I can believe anything. I cannot imagine anything.
Click to expand...

No, I confused what I thought you said you thought the lack of imagination implied. Having a look back, I'm really not sure what this means,

"it's not possible for someone to believe conclusively"
"nobody completely believes"

Can you clarify, so I can work on finding a contradiction in what you actually believe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom