Can Charitable Status Be Removed From Religion?

You do realize that you're undermining your own case, yes? If the U.S. is conspicuous amoung first world nations for religiosity, which it is, that becomes difficult to reconcile with the idea that religiosity correlates with charity, doesn't it?
Not even close - exactly the opposite, in fact.

Those are all charities run by churches. Probably a fair estimate that without the churches, those charities wouldn't exist. No big deal; poor people have only themselves to blame for being poor, don't they?
 
Not even close - exactly the opposite, in fact.

Those are all charities run by churches. Probably a fair estimate that without the churches, those charities wouldn't exist. No big deal; poor people have only themselves to blame for being poor, don't they?

Please try to stop thinking with your bottom.

The U.S. is conspicuously religious.

The U.S. has conspicuously high poverty rates.

Ergo, religiosity does not correlate with low poverty rates.
 
Atheist - I do think you're oversimplifying the situation.

Yes - religious charities do some good. A lot of good.

Yes - ONE factor that allows religious charities to operate is generous tax treatment.

But - lets look at some downsides:

1) Very few religious charities provide charity at zero cost to the recipient. I don't mean cash cost - I mean 'intangible' costs. For example - if you attend dinner at a Union Gospel Mission, you are subjected to grace before eating, 'helpful' people who will offer you 'counselling' (which is generally linked back to some sort of faith-based position) and innumerable tracts, all based in a faith-based view. So yes - you get a meal. But it ain't free.

Likewise - faith-based NGOs that operate in post-conflict / third world countries often combine their belief systems with the aid they provide. Again - if you have nothing, maybe the last of your concerns is being told to love Jeebus while you're getting your pot of vitamin-fortified cooking oil and 1kg of rice. But it still ain't 'free'.

2) Of all charitable contributions, how much actually goes to the REAL 'aid' being provided, and how much goes to overhead? If I give $100 to the United Way and tell them that I want my contribution to go to say... The Canadian Cancer Society - then the $100 'passes through' the United Way and into the hands of the destination charity. If I give $100 to the United Way without specifying, then it goes into the United Way 'system' - and only a portion (albeit a very high percentile in the case of the United Way) goes to charitable use. If I put a $100 bill on the church collection plate, it could go to pay for the priest's salary, utilities and repairs on the church, expansion of the church, incence, candles, crackers, sweet wine, flowers etc... And maybe $10 will end up going to some church-sponsored mission somewhere in the world - where it will AGAIN be subjected to overhead expenses. Even if I use a church envelope system and specify that my $100 is to be used inthe charitable arm of the church - there still will be significant overhead, and LIMITED fiscal protection to ensure that my $100 ends up providing $100 worth of direct aid. But - your stats assume that the $100 contribution was 'charity'. Well - it wasn't really. It was (most likely) pretty self-serving for the church.

Finally, I think its a little too quick to suggest that a taxation change would end up killing charities. It might change the 'business' of giving, but it won't put 'em out of business. It might also help to encourage more efficiency and more targetted use of aid monies, and discourage the construction of multi-million dollar mega-churches which serve as nothing more than conduits for still more giving (and spending on crystal meth and male hookers in the case of Ted Haggart.)

-AH.
 
Please try to stop thinking with your bottom.

The U.S. is conspicuously religious.

The U.S. has conspicuously high poverty rates.

Ergo, religiosity does not correlate with low poverty rates.
I'd rather think with my arse than build strawmen all day, then not even know how to set fire to them properly. Whatever you're on, take the foot off the pedal, it's affecting [what's left of] your brain.

I just hope that in a few years' time, you'll sit down and read some of your old posts and realise how unutterably dense you were in the early part of the 21st century.

I'm betting overs, though.
 
Likewise - faith-based NGOs that operate in post-conflict / third world countries often combine their belief systems with the aid they provide. Again - if you have nothing, maybe the last of your concerns is being told to love Jeebus while you're getting your pot of vitamin-fortified cooking oil and 1kg of rice. But it still ain't 'free'.

That's how I see it - simply the greater good. When a five year old child is screaming in agony from starvation or a disease caught from drinking contaminated water, it doesn't bother me a bit that the rice is handed out with a tract on Jesus.

I'd much rather it wasn't, and maybe one day in the future it won't be that way. Meanwhile, I find it easier to use Horatio Nelson's method.
 
But, don't you find that even MORE insidious??? A screaming, agonized child, wracked with starvation or disease is given out rice... AND a hidden message.

Wouldn't it be better just to hand out the food and medicine and hold church services down the road for the ones who are not clinging to life from desperation...???
 
I'd rather think with my arse than build strawmen all day, then not even know how to set fire to them properly. Whatever you're on, take the foot off the pedal, it's affecting [what's left of] your brain.

I just hope that in a few years' time, you'll sit down and read some of your old posts and realise how unutterably dense you were in the early part of the 21st century.

I'm betting overs, though.

That does not constitute an arguement.
 
The singular of "data" is not "anecdote."

Oh, how you love to lie and misrepresent facts. There are nearly 300 million people in the United States. Demographic data regarding this population is not an anecdote, an anecdote is a narrative that happened to an individual person.
 
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You are wrong. Admit it, and move on.

I will be happy to admit that I'm wrong when it happens. For some reason, I don't feel I'm wrong in considering your use of a single data point -- the poverty and religiosity rates of the "United States" as a unit -- to dismiss a proposed correlation as "anecdotal."
 
I will be happy to admit that I'm wrong when it happens. For some reason, I don't feel I'm wrong in considering your use of a single data point -- the poverty and religiosity rates of the "United States" as a unit -- to dismiss a proposed correlation as "anecdotal."

Demographic data regarding a country of nearly 300 does not constitute an anecdote under any definition of the word. You are being deceitful to an absurd degree. You cannot simply sweep such a large population's demographic data under the rug because it fails to conform to your magical dream world where religion is a glorious panacea.
 
Certainly it does. The United States of America is an individual nation.

or, more tersely, :notm:

That is about as mind-numbingly, jaw-dropping stupid as saying that the laws of gravity is just an anecdote, because it's all happening in one individual universe, and we need to correspond with several other universes first to really be able to confirm it. One nation isn't even remotely capable of being likened to one individual person.

Seriously, and I'm really, really serious here, have you ever taken a statistics course in your entire life? And have you really actually understood it?
 
Seriously, and I'm really, really serious here, have you ever taken a statistics course in your entire life? And have you really actually understood it?

The U.S. stands out as the most religious first world country and the one that has the heighest poverty rate.
Hawk, I have found this conversation a curious one, to be sure, but when nebulous criterion like the italicized are a part of the set up, do you blame drkitten's dismissal of the attempt at correlation? The dr's inclusion of Russia seems to have been rather ignored.

I'll suggest that, for example, China is very much a first world nation: it's got one of the top 10 economies in the world.

The terms chosen are not trivial, or maybe they are a Freudian slip . . . perhaps just sloppiness.

Is the game being played here "first world (European) versus the brown and yellow people of the third world, and we selectively exclude whomever of the old 'second world socialists' from the 1970's in this discussion?" I have been having some trouble telling, but a game sems to be on here.

I offer this only as a kibitzer, and now return to "let's watch the tennis match" mode for this discussion.

DR
 
Hawk, I have found this conversation a curious one, to be sure, but when nebulous criterion like this are a part of the set up, do you blame drkitten dismissal of the attempt at correlation? dr's inclusion of Russia seems to have been rather ignored.

I'll suggest that China very much a first world nation: it's got one of the top 10 economies in the world.

The terms chosen are not trivial.

Is the game being played here "first world (European) versus the brown and yellow people of the third world, and we selectively exclude whomever of the old 'second world socialists' from the 1970's in this discussion?" I have been having some trouble telling, but a game is indeed on.

I offer this only as a kibitzer, and now return to "let's watch the tennis match" mode for this discussion.

DR


I think the reason that China isn't considered a First World nation is that it is still developing resources, and isn't close to as developed as most European nations, the United States, or Canada. Yes, China's economy is very big, but what's staggering is that it has plenty of room to grow still.
 
Argument by Ignoramus 101 (aka argumentum ad Sesamo Streetus)

USA is the most christian nation on Earth.

USA is the richest nation, both cumulatively and by individual.

USA is, militarily, the most powerful nation.

USA has the most millionaires by far.

USA has had a democratic government since 1783

The economy is marked by steady growth, low unemployment and inflation, and rapid advances in technology.

Ergo, christianity creates wealth, strength, political and economic stability, low unemployment and growth is technology.

Thus endeth today's lesson.
 
Argument by Ignoramus 101 (aka argumentum ad Sesamo Streetus)

USA is the most christian nation on Earth.

USA is the richest nation, both cumulatively and by individual.

USA is, militarily, the most powerful nation.

USA has the most millionaires by far.

USA has had a democratic government since 1783

The economy is marked by steady growth, low unemployment and inflation, and rapid advances in technology.

Ergo, christianity creates wealth, strength, political and economic stability, low unemployment and growth is technology.

Thus endeth today's lesson.


But amazingly, you haven't touched on poverty rates, which are more pertinent to a discussion about charity than GDP or other economic indicators, because a wealthy economy can (and in the case of the U.S. amoung other countries) fail to follow a reduction in poverty. There is less wealth disparity in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and France, to name a few, than in the United States.

P.S. While China isn't 1st world, it has a strong economy, and it has a disturbing lack of Christians. How does that fit?

I swear, if you dismiss a country of billions of people as irrelevant, I'll laugh in your (avatar's) face.
 
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