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Memes: Protoscience or Pseudoscience?

Very good.

Soapy Sam: Have you seen Wiki's article on "protoscience"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoscience
Although, since it is Wikipedia, it should not be construed as the definitive take on the subject. But, anyway, based on that, would say memes are a protoscience or not, and if not, what else?

No, I had never heard the term before this thread, so far as I recall. Here's the definition:-
"
Protoscience is a field of study that appears to conform to the initial phase of the scientific method, with information gathering and formulation of a hypothesis, but involves speculation that is either not yet experimentally falsifiable or not yet verified or accepted by a consensus of scientists. Protoscience is distinguished from other forms of speculation in that its formulation strives to remain coherent with all relevant fields of scientific research so as to achieve to falsifiability and verification as soon as possible."

Well that's a pretty wide definition.

Has there been a memetic data gathering phase? What is the hypothesis being formulated? In what way does the formulation of memetics strive to remain etc?

I'm not sure I find the term "protoscience" particularly useful, to be honest.

I like memes. I like the idea. I like the shift from "adaptationism on behalf of the vehicle" to " things reproduce that are capable of reproducing" I like the fact that a biologist can think widely enough to see that biology is not limited to natural selection and that natural selection may not be limited to biology. I think it's one of the best and most original ideas I ever heard. I still recall the shock I felt when I read it, because like Huxley with Natural Selection itself I could not imagine why I hadn't thought of it too. It's so bloody obviously right. A memorable moment in my reading life.

But would I say memetics is a protoscience? No.
But I wonder if "Protoscience" is a meme?
 
But, that's also what RNA-World does. It shows how biochemistry can emerge from chemistry. It does not use biochemicals as "inputs". I guess all I'm really trying to point out is that the line between the chemistries is not distinct, but blurry.
As is the line between a biological function and a chemical reaction, in your theory. Where does the non-biological chemical reaction end, and the "feeding" begin? It seems you could apply the general concept of feeding to even the earliest stages of the transition, depending on how specific you insist on being.
I disagree that the RNA world shows biochemistry emerging from chemistry. DNA and RNA are biochemicals. Nucleic acids are made from certain nitrogenous bases, which are converted to nucleosides and then nucleotides. The processes of making those bases, selecting them from other possible bases, attaching ribose or other sugar molecules and phosphorylating them into nucleotides are all energy consuming processes. Thus, I feel that suggesting these processes as a basis for life already posits some kind of controlled energy supply or feeding process which, so it seems to me, is already an aspect of life.

On that basis, an RNA world would need to be the offspring of some earlier life process but, if such an earlier life process had existed, one must question the need for any RNA world stage in life's origin.

The only purely chemical reactions I know of that I would describe as "feeding" are self-oscillatory or wave generating chemical reactions, such as the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belousov-Zhabotinsky_reaction ). There you have a reaction between bromate and an organic acid, often malonic acid, to produce bromine (red/brown). The concentration of the bromine visibly oscillates so long as an energy supply from malonic acid and oxidizer is available. (The colour changes are often made more dramatic by the inclusion of redox indicators.) It is the unusual chemical kinetics that cause the oscillation. In principle, reactions of this type can be used to build data processing devices, so one does have a link there to evolution being based on data.

I would be very interested to learn of any other forms of purely chemical "feeding."
 
Has there been a memetic data gathering phase? What is the hypothesis being formulated? In what way does the formulation of memetics strive to remain etc?
I do recall some experiment to gather information on memes, in a game of "Telephone" or "Chinese Whispers". I still have yet to find that reference, again, though. I'll have to ask some friends of mine for help with that, soon.

I'm not sure I find the term "protoscience" particularly useful, to be honest.
Well, I would say it is useful way of distinguishing ideas with strong scientific potential, but not yet verified or falsified experimentally; from ideas that are completely and utterly junk and pseudoscience.

I like memes. I like the idea. I like the shift from "adaptationism on behalf of the vehicle" to " things reproduce that are capable of reproducing" I like the fact that a biologist can think widely enough to see that biology is not limited to natural selection and that natural selection may not be limited to biology. I think it's one of the best and most original ideas I ever heard. I still recall the shock I felt when I read it, because like Huxley with Natural Selection itself I could not imagine why I hadn't thought of it too. It's so bloody obviously right. A memorable moment in my reading life.
Just because it "feels right", does not necessarily make it so, of course. But, liking an idea is a good first step to unraveling it, scientifically.

I disagree that the RNA world shows biochemistry emerging from chemistry. DNA and RNA are biochemicals.
I think this could simply be a bit of naïveté on your part. Do you honestly think scientists would take the idea seriously, if it had this glaring problem?
Last time I checked (and there could possibly be better theories nowadays), one of the currently accepted theories is that RNA emerged out of a process of natural selection, from parts originally emerging from silicate "scaffolding" structures. Their emergence occurred slow enough, that the amount of energy needed for the system could be lower than today's standards. Today's RNA and DNA need a lot more energy, because they work much more quickly.

Even if the above is wrong, it seems to me that your ideas seem to be limited to what the requirements for generating DNA would be, today. You fail to acknowledge that others have come up with ideas for adjusting those requirements to what could have been possible, in the past: A past when RNA and DNA were not like they are, today.

I could just as easily take that quote of yours, and say this: "I disagree that your prebiotic oscillations theory shows 'feeding' emerging from chemistry. Feeding is a biological function." Of course, I do not agree with that quote I just gave. I'm simply showing why your argument is silly.

On that basis, an RNA world would need to be the offspring of some earlier life process but, if such an earlier life process had existed, one must question the need for any RNA world stage in life's origin.
If an earlier life process existed, RNA would still be at the center of origin theories, because it symbolizes the emergence of a well-developed replicator, as the central target of selection.
 
an RNA world would need to be the offspring of some earlier life process
I disagree and challenge you to prove this. RNA is a simpler chemical than DNA, and would be quite capable of being synthesized in a random chemical environment. But even this is not necessary to abiogenesis; you might want to have a look at autocatalytic sets. They are a much more likely explanation of the origin of life on Earth, IMO, than any other; and you will also find that they are a very, very hard target. Particularly since it appears that scientists working for chemical companies have used the ideas behind autocatalytic sets to successfully create (evolve! Note most carefully!) enzymes for various uses, like odor elimination, stain removal, drain clog removal, and other purposes. These enzymes work extremely well. To top it all off, the theory of autocatalytic sets accounts for RNA, too!

It is worthwhile also to point out that templates for the synthesis of proteins are not nearly as limited as many believe. In fact, out of many, many millions or even billions of candidate amino acids, life here on Earth uses only a very, very few. For example, in your body, all of the proteins generated by your DNA are made from only twenty amino acids, out of these billions. These twenty amino acids are coded for by combinations of only four nucleotides in groups of three. You will note that four codons, taken three at a time, gives sixty-four possible combinations; with "start" and "stop" codons, and redundant combinations, this allows the specification of literally trillions of possible proteins, enough to permit an immune response to just about any antigen you will encounter in your lifetime. You should know (would, if you'd do the research) that your immune system does not come pre-programmed to combat diseases; instead, it comes pre-equipped with a "toolkit" of antibody-generating cells that are- have to be!- capable of adapting to and attacking any organism that invades your body. Given the rapid mutation rate of viruses and bacteria, this is an absolute requirement for you to be a robust organism yourself; if you were limited to only the organisms that could be specified in your DNA, you would quickly die on being exposed to a novel virus or bacterium, and this would probably happen in your first year of life.

But those four nucleotides, and those twenty amino acids, are by no means the only ones possible; in fact, there are millions or billions of others, plus combinations and permutations of them, that many believe would yield a viable genetic code, and a viable "toolkit" of proteins it can construct. In fact, alternate genetic codes actually exist on Earth; mitochondria, ciliate protozoa, Mycoplasma, and some yeasts of genus Candida use differing interpretations for at least some codons, hinting that alternate codes may have been dominant in the past.

The question is not, and never has been, "How did this incredibly unlikely genetic code come to be." It is not unlikely; it is instead inevitable. Obvious. Expected. Once, that is, one knows the laws of physics and complexity that govern chemistry. The question at hand is rather, "Of all the possible choices, why did evolution on Earth settle on the particular genetic code it did?" And the answers to that increasingly appear to have to do with robust replication, and robust correction of point mutations. It becomes increasingly obvious that the particular genetic code we use has also been subject to selection pressures. That it has itself evolved. Representations of a genetic code that must necessarily have sprung fully-fledged from nothing are therefore revealed as misrepresentations of the actual state of affairs: we see that the genetic code has evolved, and that other genetic codes are possible; given a billion years or so, and all the world's oceans, with the obvious results of the Miller-Urey experiment in hand, we can see that it is inevitable that life should have developed here.

In any case, the original point was that both genetics and memetics are accurate descriptions of reality on some level. And while I will give you points for at least presenting what you see as an alternative, I also have to point out (although I did not do the detailed critique wowbagger did, I did read it) that both alternatives appear to be relatively unaffected by whether genes preceeded proteins, or succeeded them. It is likely that we will never know for sure; it is equally likely that we will create at some point organisms that have all the necessary attributes for us to call them "living" that do not use the same genetic code we do. And I ask you, will they be "alive," will they be "life," whatever that might mean?

Underlying this conversation is the following point: the meaning of the genetic code is undeniable. We can duplicate most of the functions in vitro. And given that that meaning, the clear, unambiguous mapping between genes and proteins, is unquestioned, the utility of DNA as a blueprint for the creation of proteins, and as the source of the repetition of arrangement of proteins and their actions that we call ontogeny.

Given this known paradigm, and given the complexity with which an organized collection of proteins can act, it must be obvious that there is something that can be acted upon, that can be inherited, that is the source of all our phenotypes. And this must be the place where all changes that can be inherited must come from. And no matter what went before, once this DNA mechanism became dominant in life on Earth, it must be what ultimately is changed whenever a heritable phenotypical change occurs in a population of organisms. It does not matter what other chemical or physical changes occur in an organism; if the DNA, and specifically in the germ plasm, is not changed, then that change is not heritable. And conversely, it does not matter what is changed in germ plasm, that change will be heritable, even if it makes no difference whatsoever to the phenotype of the organism. These are provable facts, and have been proven over and over again; the mere existence of genetically modified organisms is undisputable proof that when evolution occurs in modern life forms, and by modern I mean anything that uses DNA on Earth, which is every organism alive on Earth today, and just about every organism that has lived since the beginning of the Cambrian.

Given that such a mechanism exists, it has to be obvious that there can be no question as to what changes when evolution occurs. Thee can be only one answer. It must be DNA. Nothing else answers the obvious requirement for something that can be inherited, something that determines the phenotype, and something that is both difficult enough to change that it is usable for transmission of phenotypical characteristics, and easy enough to change that it can be that which changes when evolution occurs.

In this low-level sense, then, genetics does not map well to memetics. However, I have to point out that once you posit evolution of chemicals, and point out the similarities to genetic evolution, you have inadvertently made an analogy that improves the viability of memetics, because the way memes evolve is much more like the way that you posit that chemicals evolve prebiotically than the way that we know DNA evolves. Unlike genes, memes are themselves the phenotype; they are the ideas themselves, not "genes of ideas," as would be required by strict analogy with genetic molecular biology.
 
It's noticeable that silicates, notably the asbestiforms, but even Silica itself are often implicated in lung cancer. I have wondered why organic tissue would bond to silicates at all unless there is something strangely compatible about the silicate template...
 
Sam, here's food for thought: at the time Gregor Mendel proposed his original theory of genetics, we had no idea what the mechanism might be. Now we know it is DNA, and we know all the details. I see memetics as being in the state of genetics when Mendel proposed it.

As far as evidence, the evidence is as diverse as pet rocks and science; both are examples of environments selecting among ideas and the ones that "catch on" surviving. As far as falsifiability, if pet rocks can survive, then that means that meaningless ideas can, ideas that convey no demonstrable benefit to the adopter; and the falsification would be the absence of such ideas (and incidentally the non-existence of the advertising industry).
 
If anyone holds that Memetics is either a science or a protoscience, could they please link some recent published papers on the subject. The "Journal of Memetics" appeared to have a good go at rigorously defining what was meant by the term, then got a bit silly and gave up.

Following is a quote from an article in the last issue (2005) from Bruce Edmonds:

I claim that the underlying reason memetics has failed is that it has not provided any extra explanatory or predictive power beyond that available without the gene-meme analogy. Thus whilst the idea of memes has retained its attractiveness for some in terms of a framework for thinking about phenomena, it has not provided any "added value" it terms of providing new understanding of phenomena. The fact that some who wear the theoretical spectacles (Kuhn 1969) of memetics insist of redescribing a host of phenomena in these terms despite the lack of substantive results merely confirms other academics' opinion of the approach. The ability to think of some phenomena in a particular way (or describe it using a certain framework), does not mean that the phenomena has those properties in any significant sense.
(http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/2005/vol9/edmonds_b.html)

I would contend that Memetics is neither a science, proto-science or pseudo-science, but simply an idea who's time has come and gone.
 
I will agree that memes is not a science or proto science and many on this thread have said as much. It's more of a tool and it's uses are growing. It's similar to the word "theme" or "scheme" or "idea"-- it's refers to that part of communication which makes an idea spread...and evolve. To say it's an idea that has come and gone is like saying that "prepositions are an idea that has come and gone". That doesn't mean anything. Some ideas, thoughts, notions, paradigms, languages, learning tools spread rapidly--others go nowhere. Life evolves via the gene--and "ideas" evolve via memes--religion, languages, mathematics, fads, songs, etc. have a meme behind them which has the power to stick around and evolve. Those with bad memes, aren't around. (Well, astrology is still around...it's a pretty useless meme--but people seem enchanted with it...) Many memes survive because they are useful to humans--they encourage the survival and reproduction of humans...they meet human aims. And others are around because someone long ago said you'd suffer forever if you didn't believe them.
 
And I'd argue that memetics hasn't taken off because we don't have enough knowledge yet of the underlying mental phenomena to attach it to anything like genetics is attached to DNA. I think that attempting to characterize memetics at this time is about like trying to characterize genetics in the time of Gregor Mendel. It will prove its worth or be abandoned, quite frankly, on the basis of criteria that we can't imagine now. Arguing that it's not a science, while perhaps factually true, is IMHO entirely premature.
 
I think this could simply be a bit of naïveté on your part. Do you honestly think scientists would take the idea seriously, if it had this glaring problem?
Last time I checked (and there could possibly be better theories nowadays), one of the currently accepted theories is that RNA emerged out of a process of natural selection, from parts originally emerging from silicate "scaffolding" structures. Their emergence occurred slow enough, that the amount of energy needed for the system could be lower than today's standards. Today's RNA and DNA need a lot more energy, because they work much more quickly.
Those glaring problems are present - hence my comments about spaceships. Nobody has yet demonstrated a self-replicating RNA molecule except when it is provided with a preformed enzyme replicator and energetically activated biochemical substrates, the triphosphates. Triphosphate activation does not work on silicate surfaces, all these model stidies are performed using a different and more complex activator abbreviated to IMP. Those compounds are not found in living things.

Also, may I remind you of the meaning of the abbreviation RNA - Ribose Nucleic Acid. Ribose is a sugar - derived from life - and is just a small part of each component in an RNA sequence.

Even if the above is wrong, it seems to me that your ideas seem to be limited to what the requirements for generating DNA would be, today. You fail to acknowledge that others have come up with ideas for adjusting those requirements to what could have been possible, in the past: A past when RNA and DNA were not like they are, today.
People have certainly suggested that there may be simpler data encoding molecules but I do not know of anyone suggesting their identity.

I could just as easily take that quote of yours, and say this: "I disagree that your prebiotic oscillations theory shows 'feeding' emerging from chemistry. Feeding is a biological function." Of course, I do not agree with that quote I just gave. I'm simply showing why your argument is silly.

If an earlier life process existed, RNA would still be at the center of origin theories, because it symbolizes the emergence of a well-developed replicator, as the central target of selection.
I do not thik my argument is silly. Oscillating chemical reactions must "feed" in the sense of needing an external energy source to mainat the chemcal oscillation.
RNA is not demonstrated to be a replicator. When it is copied it is copied by enzymes within cells.
 
It's noticeable that silicates, notably the asbestiforms, but even Silica itself are often implicated in lung cancer. I have wondered why organic tissue would bond to silicates at all unless there is something strangely compatible about the silicate template...
There is nothing strange about it. Weak intermolecular interactions are commonplace and many substances bond to organic tissue - it needs cleaning off the bath for example - and silica also bonds to a great many things, which is one reason it is so widely used in thin layer chromatography.
 
If anyone holds that Memetics is either a science or a protoscience, could they please link some recent published papers on the subject. The "Journal of Memetics" appeared to have a good go at rigorously defining what was meant by the term, then got a bit silly and gave up.

Following is a quote from an article in the last issue (2005) from Bruce Edmonds:


(http://cfpm.org/jom-emit/2005/vol9/edmonds_b.html)

I would contend that Memetics is neither a science, proto-science or pseudo-science, but simply an idea who's time has come and gone.

I agree with this.
 
Of course you do. The problem is, do you have any data to support your opinion?
In my opinion, the value of a system of thought lies in what it achieves. As I have said before, "The ultimate proof of the pudding is in the eating and, if memetics ever achieves anything, that will be the proof."
 
And I'd argue that memetics hasn't taken off because we don't have enough knowledge yet of the underlying mental phenomena to attach it to anything like genetics is attached to DNA. I think that attempting to characterize memetics at this time is about like trying to characterize genetics in the time of Gregor Mendel. It will prove its worth or be abandoned, quite frankly, on the basis of criteria that we can't imagine now. Arguing that it's not a science, while perhaps factually true, is IMHO entirely premature.
However memetics does not even live up to the standards of genetics in Mendel's time. Before the discovery of DNA, genetics still had predictive power, you could say that an organism with this characteristic crossed with an organism with that characteristic would produce an offspring with such and such a characteristic.

So genetics was a science even before the underlying mechanism was even guessed at.

There is no such predictive power in memetics and, to my knowledge, no careful experimentation to even attempt to find this.

Study of the transmission of such things as ideas, attitudes and beliefs was occurring before TSG and continue after the vocabulary of memetics fades - many attempts to impose rigour on memetics borrow the methodology from these studies, but appeared to suffer, rather than be enhanced, by the gene analogy.
 
Mr. Hewitt,
I am curious to know what your response is to Schneibster's post #144 of this thread. He seems to have addressed your criticism of RNA origins better than I did.
I didn't reply to it because, to me, his comments seemed like total nonsense. He purports to be addressing the question of the origin of biology from chemistry but plainly knows little biology and no chemistry. For some strange reason, pretends to both and seems uninterested in the accuracy, or otherwise, of his claims. I don't have the time to write a textbook for him, so we will deal with just the first paragraph.
from Schneibster
I disagree and challenge you to prove this. RNA is a simpler chemical than DNA, and would be quite capable of being synthesized in a random chemical environment. But even this is not necessary to abiogenesis; you might want to have a look at autocatalytic sets. They are a much more likely explanation of the origin of life on Earth, IMO, than any other; and you will also find that they are a very, very hard target. Particularly since it appears that scientists working for chemical companies have used the ideas behind autocatalytic sets to successfully create (evolve! Note most carefully!) enzymes for various uses, like odor elimination, stain removal, drain clog removal, and other purposes. These enzymes work extremely well. To top it all off, the theory of autocatalytic sets accounts for RNA, too!
I don't feel obligated to respond to challenges, only to relevant critiques.
RNA is not simpler than DNA, they differ only by one oxygen atom per link and DNA lacks that atom.
If Schneibster claims to know what is or is not necessary for abiogenesis, he should follow my example and make his ideas public - this is a major research issue.
I have looked at autocatalytic sets and, as a theory of abiogenesis, I consider that idea an "appeal to magic" as Orgel puts it.
I am not aware of scientists from chemical companies using autocatalytic sets to evolve enzymes. I don't expect Schneibster will be citing any RELEVANT literature.
To the best of my knowledge, autocatalytic sets have not been used to account for the prebiotic emergence of RNA.

As I said, this is my reply to his first paragraph. A fuller reply would follow the same pattern.
 
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There is nothing strange about it. Weak intermolecular interactions are commonplace and many substances bond to organic tissue - it needs cleaning off the bath for example - and silica also bonds to a great many things, which is one reason it is so widely used in thin layer chromatography.

Good points. Thank you.
 
Hmmm, well if you think At Home in the Universe isn't RELEVANT, I don't guess I care much what you have to say after that. One last shot, then the ignore list. Go for it.
 

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