Common Sense

[Pardalis]

28th, stop embarrassing yourself. It's OK to admit you don't know what you're talking about, in fact, you'll have everybody's highest regards if you do.

 

[R.Mackey]

So what you're saying is that the energy released from the tilting of the upper mass is what generated the force required to push all of the lower floors into failure, yes?

No.

I'm saying the energy released from the upper block tilting is what generated the force required to fail the remainder of the impact floor. No more than that.

After the impact floor is completely gone, we have a new mechanism as the upper block essentially free-falls a few meters before hitting solid structure again. All the lower floors failed progressively, more-or-less individually, thanks to the energy release from the ever-growing mass above falling. The tilt doesn't meaningfully increase after the impact floor completely fails.

Really, everyone in the entire world knows this!

Failure is imminent... according to what? Your opinion? Your speculation? Where are your calculations for this fact? What lateral forces? Where are your calculations? Are we talking about the wind?

All of the above, and also see the NIST report. It's all there.

No, we are not talking about the wind. Look, if you try to support a 50,000 ton block of building, but only support it on one side; and you still have some remaining braces and horizontal floors that try to resist the twisting that follows, you get lateral forces. At rest, with the building intact, there are very few lateral forces.

Again, this takes no particular genius to understand. You further demonstrate the ineptitude of your "common sense."

The surviving columns are weakened all the way to the bottom of the structure from heat? How are the remaining lower floors bearing the FULL weight of the upper mass? Where is the proof for this statement?

I never said they were weakened all the way to the bottom. You're making things up now. Quite disingenuous of you.

Nor did they have to. Once that upper block gets moving, it doesn't matter whether the lower columns are weakened or not. They're nowhere near strong enough to absorb the shock.

If it's calculations you want, even though I'm sure you've been pointed to this hundreds of times, start with F. R. Greening. It's a simplified model but quite sufficient for purposes of this discussion.

Who said the upper floors suspended in mid-air? Why do you imply that? Where did I say that? Why do the upper floors have to be suspended in mid-air in order for them to be separated (in part) from the lower floors? Why do you say things like this...

Because you asked this question:

If the upper mass isn't touching the lower floors... can it still apply pressure to the lower floors?

You were the one who said the upper mass wasn't touching the lower floors. Either that or you were asking a totally irrelevant, impossible question just to be difficult. Honestly, you're so scattered, it's impossible to tell.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Do you have proof that the collapsing region was losing mass through expulsion (which you incorrectly call "exploding") faster than it was gaining mass from the the collapse of additional floors? Or are you just looking at pictures and using your "common sense" again?

And I know you've been told this before, but NIST ruled out pankaking as the reason for the initiation of the collapse. Nowhere do they say that pankaking could not be the reason that the collapse, once initiated, propagated down the towers.

Does NIST have proof that the upper mass was increasing in size... considering the fact that we can't even see the upper mass for the majority of the collapse. Why did they draw this conclusion without a lick of evidence?

And, they don't say pancaking couldn't have occurred during the collapse.... BECAUSE they don't even address the actual collapse with any detail or calculations! That's why none of you ever provide answers about the specifics of the actual collapse...and NOT the initiation of the collapse.

Enough with the sagging trusses... bowing columns... transferring of loads - that doesn't explain anything about how the core collapsed within the perimeter of the towers, at near free fall speeds.

 

[Pardalis]

Maybe you should look at a video instead of a still picture 28th, the top section didn't stay in that position for very long.

 

[Firestone]

Enough with the sagging trusses... bowing columns... transferring of loads - that doesn't explain anything about how the core collapsed within the perimeter of the towers, at near free fall speeds.

Actually, R.Mackey explained it six minutes ago, but maybe he is on ignore too.

 

[Arus808]

this proves yet again, that 28th has not taken any amount of time to read the NIST report.

 

[beachnut]

How would arab terrorists get access to plant explosives in the buildings? That's why you fly planes into buildings.

What increasing mass? The floors were exploding... so how was the upper mass increasing in size? Were the floors pancaking? That couldn't be the case, cus NIST says a pancake collapse isn't possible on the WTC Towers... even though, they also claim the upper mass increased in size as it fell... so, how is it increasing in size? The floors are exploding outward... so what material is being added to the upper mass that increases its size as the collapse progresses?

What is your end story here? You have proved you are nuts you can stop now; I beleive you are nuts!

Is it true you only passed typing tutor in school?

 

[Pardalis]

How would arab terrorists get access to plant explosives in the buildings?

How could secret government agents covertly plant explosives in two of the world's biggest working office buildings in the world's busiest commercial district?

That's why you fly planes into buildings.

Utter nonsense.

What increasing mass? The floors were exploding...

No.

 

[uk_dave]

this proves yet again, that 28th has not taken any amount of time to read the NIST report.

No point. 28K believes his 'common sense' makes up for his lack of technical expertise and imagination.

The woowoos have gotta get away from this appeal to "common sense" because, as we have seen throughout this thread, the world just doesn't obey the arbitrary rules they place on it through their lack of imagination and common sense dogma.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Dude... you can use common sense a thousand ways to prove NIST's theory to be impossible. I've done it several times... go read some of my posts.

One way... I proved their theory false, was by observing the upper mass on WTC 2, that fell over to the side... NIST claims this upper mass is the force that crushed the lower floors all the way to the ground... yet, we can clearly see, that seconds after the collapse began... the upper mass was already tilting over. Apply the law of inertia to this event... and you learn that this upper mass will never return to its original position i.e. completely covering the lower floors.

If the upper mass is tilted... than at best, there will only be one of the bottom corners (of the upper mass) touching the lower floors... so what is causing the walls on the other THREE sides of the lower floors (that has no contact with the falling upper mass) to explode into a million pieces?

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/95/wtcsouthtowerlq9.jpg

That's how you use common sense.

I think our friend has completely missed the point of this thread.

 

[Arus808]

28th has demonstrated that he doesn't even understand what "common sense" means. so he can't rely on something that he does'nt fully understand.

 

[GlennB]

Yes, that thought did occur to me. 3m is longer than a lot of model railways.

I've wanted to build myself a model railway since I was about fifteen, I'm up to sixty years now, and still not got around to it.

Dave

Go for it.
I just got my first remote-controlled Dalek, at the age of 56.

 

[babazaroni]

What increasing mass?

As each floor collapses, it adds to the total collapsing mass.

Were the floors pancaking? That couldn't be the case, cus NIST says a pancake collapse isn't possible on the WTC Towers

NIST says pancake collapse was not the initiating cause.

 

[Pardalis]

28th, just out of curiosity, how would the buildings' structural integrity have reacted once the initial collapse started, according to your common sense?

 

[Mancman]

Enough with the sagging trusses... bowing columns... transferring of loads - that doesn't explain anything about how the core collapsed within the perimeter of the towers, at near free fall speeds.

Freefall?

Huge sections of core stood for 10-15 seconds after the main collapse had ended. 25-30 seconds after the collapse began. 900ft tall sections. You are wrong about everything. On an increasingly embarrasing scale. You spout enough guff to fill China, honestly.

 

[Pardalis]

28th, the towers start to collapse: what happens next?

 

[Skibum]

That's why none of you ever provide answers about the specifics of the actual collapse...and NOT the initiation of the collapse.

Why do we have to explain something that common sense (real common sense, not your twisted version of it) should be able to answer?

When you severely and suddenly overload a structural system it collapses violently. Thats the answer! Anyone with the slightest amount of common sense would know that.

 

[28th Kingdom]

After the impact floor is completely gone, we have a new mechanism as the upper block essentially free-falls a few meters before hitting solid structure again. All the lower floors failed progressively, more-or-less individually, thanks to the energy release from the ever-growing mass above falling. The tilt doesn't meaningfully increase after the impact floor completely fails. Really, everyone in the entire world knows this!

Everyone knows what? That the upper mass was increasing in size? How do they know this? We can't even see the upper mass for the majority of the collapse, so what tells us it's increasing in size? So if the lower floors collapsed as a result of the energy released from the falling mass - than wouldn't the upper mass have to be touching the lower floors in order to release this energy onto the lower floors? Wouldn't the upper mass have to continually touch the lower floors all the way to the ground... or could the upper mass fall off at some point... with the momentum causing the remaining floors to collapse?

All of the above, and also see the NIST report. It's all there.

So you are saying that you reached your conclusion through pure speculation and opinion, right? Because that was all there in my statement.

Look, if you try to support a 50,000 ton block of building, but only support it on one side; and you still have some remaining braces and horizontal floors that try to resist the twisting that follows, you get lateral forces. At rest, with the building intact, there are very few lateral forces.

So you just admitted, that the upper mass may of only been touching the lower floors on one side. What twisting... you say after the initial tilt of the upper mass it stopped tilting... so which is it? Did it continue to twist and tilt all the way to the bottom or did it stopped twisting and tilting right after the collapse began?

Nor did they have to. Once that upper block gets moving, it doesn't matter whether the lower columns are weakened or not. They're nowhere near strong enough to absorb the shock.

Even if the upper mass is only touching on one side of the lower floors? Do you not equate that into the calculations?

 

[babazaroni]

Enough with the sagging trusses... bowing columns... transferring of loads - that doesn't explain anything about how the core collapsed within the perimeter of the towers, at near free fall speeds.

I think you may be on to something here 28K without realizing it. The lightweight floor trusses could only offer insignificant resistance to the huge mass that was crushing it. The space between the inner and outer columns was collapsing faster then the outer and inner columns. This would account for some/most of the debris ejections we saw.

 

[Pardalis]

28th, you do know that buildings are supposed to stand up right? If the top section began to tilt and collapse, what do you think is going to happen to the rest of the building?