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Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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Great idea, DY! Try Rick Noll. Maybe he's still willing to let you examine the original Skookum Cast. You could kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

I'd like to see you fake an entire trackway and invite Dr. Meldrum (who's examined five) to examine it in situ.

The conditions are pretty reasonable on the $100,000 challenge. Just duplicate the tracks as they were found in 1958. Since the Wallace family claimed Ray faked the tracks and supposedly knew how it was done, it should have been an easy matter for them to collect the $100,000. In fact, they were the reason the reward was offered in the first place. John was tired of their nonsense.
 
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LAL, those pictures of tracks in the snow you posted and talking about faking tracks gave me a possibly simple way to fake such tracks (in snow, at least).

One simply needs a long pole, say two meters, which at either has a little extensions at ninety degree angles. Attached at each end on the extensions are your shapes serving as left and right bigfoot prints. The more indistinct the shape the better as long as it could pass as being attributable to a BF. You could even have a bag with various detachable attachment shapes with maybe some more detail for key areas.

You then simply walk at your leisure in the snow and at sufficiently 'that can't be human' spacings alternate left and right prints far enough from your own trackway to seem believable. By yourself or with some aid work out how you'd like to photograph it, cook up a good story preferably involving some people unaware of the hoaxing a voila! There you have it.

Does that sound like a plausible hoaxing method?
 
...or simply find a line of prints where a fox or coyote ran through the snow and claim it is a hominid path...Sanderson and Murphy among others have done this.
Hell, even frog tracks in the snow can look like a biped made them:
 
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As long as there's evidence and not proof, the doubt should be there.

The denial should go.
Agreed. As should unwarranted credulity.

Actually while we're at it how about obtuseness, confrontationalism, beligerance, provocation, childish insults, semantic dip-s**ting, tiresome posturing, unwillingness to heed reasonable perspectives, and plain old trolling?

(Hopefully it goes without saying I don't intend to imply you.)
 
I don't think the reduction in Homo had anything to do with stone tools. It was present in all bipedal primates that I know of, even Oreopithecus.

http://www.geo.unifi.it/ricerca/pdf & download per web oreo/Alba et al 2001.pdf

Krantz said there was a problem with occlusion (of the fangs) in an upright posture, but he didn't really elaborate.
Thanks for the interesting link. Stone tools certainly don't seem to be the dominant catalyst here. That's funny beacuse it's exactly to the contrary of what is written in the link you provided concerning mandible shapes.

Here's a non pdf link with some information on canine reduction in hominids:http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566394_3/Human_Evolution.html

Interesting in the mention of increased social cooperation and subsequent reduction in the need of aggresive male behaviours. I wonder how this fits bigfoot?
Small Canine Teeth

Compared with apes, humans have very small canine teeth. Apes—particularly males—have thick, projecting, sharp canines that they use for displays of aggression and as weapons to defend themselves. The oldest known bipeds, who lived at least 6 million years ago, still had large canines by human standards, though not as large as in apes. By 4 million years ago australopiths had developed the human characteristic of having smaller, flatter canines. Canine reduction might have related to an increase in social cooperation among humans and an accompanying decrease in the need for males to make aggressive displays.

The australopiths can be divided into an early group of species, known as gracile australopiths, which arose prior to 3 million years ago; and a later group, known as robust australopiths, which evolved after 3 million years ago. The gracile australopiths—of which several species evolved between 4.5 million and 3 million years ago—generally had smaller teeth and jaws. The later-evolving robusts had larger faces with large jaws and molars (cheek teeth). These traits indicate powerful and prolonged chewing of food, and analyses of wear on the chewing surface of robust australopith molar teeth support this idea. Some fossils of early australopiths have features resembling those of the later species, suggesting that the robusts evolved from one or more gracile ancestors.
 
In Alaska, the "ferocious" coastal brown bear is primarily a grazer and fish eater.

I wonder if "Ciochon and colleagues" could have gotten that right with a mere dental examination.
You have a good point here. I think the need for more samples and the 'last meal' effect of examining phytoliths on dentition (indicates what food may have been in season at the time of death) leaves some important unanswered questions.

I'm trying to refrain from speaking out of ignorance of Gigantopithecines and I think this is wise also for anyone looking for a BF ancestor.
 
LAL, those pictures of tracks in the snow you posted and talking about faking tracks gave me a possibly simple way to fake such tracks (in snow, at least).

One simply needs a long pole, say two meters, which at either has a little extensions at ninety degree angles. Attached at each end on the extensions are your shapes serving as left and right bigfoot prints. The more indistinct the shape the better as long as it could pass as being attributable to a BF. You could even have a bag with various detachable attachment shapes with maybe some more detail for key areas.

You then simply walk at your leisure in the snow and at sufficiently 'that can't be human' spacings alternate left and right prints far enough from your own trackway to seem believable. By yourself or with some aid work out how you'd like to photograph it, cook up a good story preferably involving some people unaware of the hoaxing a voila! There you have it.

Does that sound like a plausible hoaxing method?

Not for trackways where there are no human prints alongside. I've seen unpublished photos of one near the Dalles, Oregon, crossing afarmer's field. The deputies on the scene said they saw no way this could have been hoaxed without a helicopter.

Ed McClarney, Roy Craft and the Columbian camera crew had to climb an incline the makers of the double trackway went up "like two machines". Ed's nearly 6'4" and had to jump to equal the stride. Hoaxers would have had to devise some way to make two trackway, side by side, and keep it up for seven miles without falling, slipping or otherwise revealing signs of their presence. And there were several other track events that same winter/spring as well as at least one credible sighting with physical evidence to back it up.

I remember the lakes long Hwy 14 were frozen into April.

Interestingly, five DNR workers saw a pair cross a meadow some years later.

Most hoaxes are of the phone call ("Bigfoot's eating my mother!") variety, are transparent and incredibly amatuerish.

But, in order to explain all this away, sceptics have to get into some pretty far reaches. And they do.

I think they give hoaxers too much credit.
 
I couldn't help but notice upon further examination of the image LAL posted in #197 and while thinking of the track hoaxing technique I mentioned in post #203 that you'll notice the person taking the pictures who's tracks you can see is shooting opposite the direction he's heading. Hmmm.;)
 
Yay! Another derail to the Giganto diet, Skookum event, and Swindler stuff I'm pursuing!
Not for trackways where there are no human prints alongside. I've seen unpublished photos of one near the Dalles, Oregon, crossing afarmer's field. The deputies on the scene said they saw no way this could have been hoaxed without a helicopter.
I've seen some interesting ones taken from the air. Have any of those handy? Those would be cool to see again.
Ed McClarney, Roy Craft and the Columbian camera crew had to climb an incline the makers of the double trackway went up "like two machines". Ed's nearly 6'4" and had to jump to equal the stride. Hoaxers would have had to devise some way to make two trackway, side by side, and keep it up for seven miles without falling, slipping or otherwise revealing signs of their presence. And there were several other track events that same winter/spring as well as at least one credible sighting with physical evidence to back it up.
Yes, I've often heard these anecdotes (to me they are) of tracks leading up inclines in an inhuman manner and the outlandish explanations for them (the jumping down the hill backwards makes me chuckle). Definitely I'd like to know if there are any available pics.
I think they give hoaxers too much credit.
Fair enough but I think when looking at anything that astounds us for which we can't surmise an explanation we would do well to keep in mind the many ingenious and often simple ways we can be fooled regardless our training/education.
 
Thanks for the interesting link. Stone tools certainly don't seem to be the dominant catalyst here. That's funny beacuse it's exactly to the contrary of what is written in the link you provided concerning mandible shapes.

Yep. If I had to agree with everything in all the links I post, I wouldn't be able to post at all.

Interesting in the mention of increased social cooperation and subsequent reduction in the need of aggresive male behaviours. I wonder how this fits bigfoot?

Upright males have other ways to display.

Things have been moving so fast in paleoanthropology (and genetics) that any idea over twenty minutes old is apt to be out of date.

I think we get hung up on trying to figure out what things are "for".

Changes happen on a molecular level. If a trait happens to have some sort of advantage it may spread through the population. If not, it may spread anyway. It may not offer an advantage, but some other advantage could come about because of it.

http://www.leakeyfoundation.org/newsandevents/n4_x.jsp?id=3666

What are peacock tails "for"? Evidently they signal superior energy (because they take a lot of it to develop) and females find that attractive. The tails seem to have no use whatsoever, but they persist through sexual selection.

Maybe hominid females are turned off by huge canines. ;)
 
Yep...and though I realize trying to push this thread back towards the track with certain BF-enthusiasts trolling around is virtually impossible,
let me again bring it home by saying:

Attempting to track a BF can only be done if anyone can actually i.d. a BF print with some measurable degree of certainty. So far, no test or evaluation of self-proclaimed and/or self-promoting BF "trackers" has been undertaken and/or quantified. Therefore, all these wonderful anecdotes about BF climbing cliffs for miles and miles, etc. remain 100% unsubstantiated.
Now...back to it...
 
........

The conditions are pretty reasonable on the $100,000 challenge. Just duplicate the tracks as they were found in 1958.......
It takes two pages ( the text of the ' footprint challenge ) to say that ?

Have you actually read the challenge ?

If you have, I would say your statement above is a misrepresentation and a lie ..



Would someone ( Lu isn't ignoring ) please quote this, so Lu can respond ...
 
Yay! Another derail to the Giganto diet, Skookum event, and Swindler stuff I'm pursuing!I've seen some interesting ones taken from the air. Have any of those handy?

Powder Mountain? Not handy, but there's a shot in Meet the Sasquatch and Dahinden's book, I believe. They may be online. Barbara Wasson tried to explain them away as a "jumping animal", but I don't think she said what kind. Hard to imagine, especially after observing wild rabbits so closely recently, that a "jumping animal" could leave such consistant impressions over such a distance.

Those would be cool to see again.Yes, I've often heard these anecdotes (to me they are) of tracks leading up inclines in an inhuman manner and the outlandish explanations for them (the jumping down the hill backwards makes me chuckle). Definitely I'd like to know if there are any available pics.

There's a shot in The Mysterious Monsters, but it looks like a single trackway to me. Ed is seen giving his account of the discovery of the double trackway shortly afterwards. He told me the story some 30 years later as though it had happened yesterday. (He was a county commissioner then.)

An anecdote is a short account of an incident (especially a biographical one). There's nothing in the word to indicate falsehood.

Fair enough but I think when looking at anything that astounds us for which we can't surmise an explanation we would do well to keep in mind the many ingenious and often simple ways we can be fooled regardless our training/education.

Investigators do just that. Your example from Krantz is a good one. The shape gave it away.


"Fake Tracks

According to the critics all Bigfoot tracks are fakes made by hoaxers with a pair of large false feet attached to their shoes. The weight required to make a typical footprint has been estimated at 700 pounds (Krantz 1992). Author/researcher John Green attempted to simulate the depth of Sasquatch footprints while wearing 14½ inch fake feet and carrying a load of 250 pounds (Green 1978), his total weight of 450 pounds was too light to make deep enough impressions in firm wet sand. A kind of mechanical stamping device or footprint machine may be an alternative means of faking tracks...

...but an apparatus capable of delivering a thrust of approximately 800 lb per square foot that can be manhandled over rough and mountainous country puts a strain on one's credulity. (Napier 1974, p.125)

Careful studies of Sasquatch footprints, by geologist Dr Maurice Tripp, found no evidence of the impact ridges that a mechanical device would be expected to leave (Napier 1974).

The huge number of tracks that have been found and the remoteness of the areas where they have been discovered argue against large-scale faking. Some of these tracks extended for distances of three-quarters of a mile up to several miles with thousands of individual footprints. A series of three thousand footprints, each 16 inches long, was found on a logging road in the Cascade Mountains. On another occasion a long line of prints were discovered on Powder Mountain, about 65 miles north of Vancouver, by a man flying low over the mountain in a helicopter. The tracks were 4,800 feet up the mountainside and ran for five miles before disappearing into ice caves at the foot of a glacier (Hunter 1993). With something like 100 million track events having occurred over the last forty years:

...the skeptics must postulate a well-organized team of one thousand people, working full-time, who are spread over all of North America with their greatest concentration in the Pacific Northwest. (Krantz 1992, p.34)

An independent study of a database of 706 track length measurements further supports the contention that there is no evidence of large scale fakery:

The normal distribution argues compellingly against any alternative hypothesis to the existence of the Sasquatch as a cryptic species, in that production of fictitious data over 40 years by hundreds of people independently of each other would have generated a distribution with many peaks. A further factor that supports the authenticity of the data is the fact that foot length, foot width, heel width, and gait are interrelated in a logical and cohesive fashion, a congruence not plausible by pure chance. (Fahrenbach 1998, pp.50-51)

Finally, there is the question of how the fakers manage to produce footprints that are so biologically convincing (Napier 1974, p.125). If they were all the same a hoax would automatically be suspected but Sasquatch footprints vary — some anatomical features are constant, but they are sufficiently different for individuals to be recognised by their footprints."

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/bf_prints.html
 
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Why are you so focused on who gets the money?

I'm just saying that somebody should get very rich when they confirm Bigfoot. That ought to be a prime motivator for lots of people including professional trackers. North Americans mostly act like there isn't a fortune in the woods.

"Well Hank, it looks like you're all geared-up and ready to go deer hunting."
"Yep. I'll take a deer, but I'm mostly interested in bagging a Bigfoot. I've got bills to pay, kids to feed, and I suck at the lottery."

The goal is to buy the truth.

That would be a good purchase. But you can't buy a truth like, "Bigfoot doesn't exist." As close as it could get to that would be, "This particular funded search did not confirm Bigfoot."

So how do they profit? Like those who phone in bomb threats?

You are asking how hoaxers profit? It looks like some of them aren't really interested in a cash reward for their hoax. They seem to just want to trick people into thinking a Bigfoot was in our midst. I can imagine hoaxers themselves having a range of personal beliefs about BF. Some might be deep believers, deep skeptics or anywhere in between.
 
Part of the Bigfoot Mythos is that tracks have been found in soils in which human footprints barely make a dent. OK, lets suppose that to be true. Does that mean it makes them beyond human fabrication? Well, no.

It's easy to make fake tracks in mud or sand. Just strap on the fake feet and bound along. But what about stiff soil?

This little test I did in my front yard. It took about 10 minutes. I simply jumped up and down on my Wallace style fake foot and drove the thing into the ground. Now check out my own footprint beside my fake track. I stood on one foot to make the impression. Much less deep.

Aha, I hear the true believers say, "but the soil was soft enough to take your own footprint, your own footprints would betray you". Yeah, true enough, unless I wrapped my feet in plastic or something clever like that...

Check out the cool Wallace style "monolithic margin" at the anterior toe margins!

http://www.orgoneresearch.com/fake_feet_and Monolithic Margins.htm
 

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Yep...and though I realize trying to push this thread back towards the track with certain BF-enthusiasts trolling around is virtually impossible,
let me again bring it home by saying:

Trolling, eh? You'd rather just do high fives with the peanut gallery? The first thing I saw when I checked out the forum on advice of a real life friend (who thinks we're all nuts), was "look what the hoaxers are up to now", regarding Manitoba. I've been trying to bring a little light of truth to it ever since, off and on..........not an easy task when I was outnumbered six to one on six different threads.

I'm glad to see there are some decent discussions going without quite so much rock-throwing, name-calling and little kid mockery.
 
Check out the cool Wallace style "monolithic margin" at the anterior toe margins!

Check out the cool monolithic margins below! Can you identify the prints?
 

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Check out the cool monolithic margins below! Can you identify the prints?

Lu, do you think the indicated margins in those ancient tracks was a feature of the foot of the subject, or maybe of erosion of the substrate?
 
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