• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

Status
Not open for further replies.
A fraction of what is invested today in either the ivory-billed funding, or what SETI has spent annually.

A rapid response capability (which is primarily on "standby" until a good quality, current sighting event occurs) shouldn't cost much more than a hundred thousand or so to set up, mere pennies to operate annually until an event occurs which justifies a more expensive response.

Then funding (or a "line" of rapidly authorized funding) should be available for:

1) News monitoring, in order to get initial information on any current reports. This really won't cost a nickel. There are plenty of places where volunteers for this type of "armchair research" is already going on. All that is needed is a once per day Google News search, daily BFF and BFRO scan, etc. Anything fresh or promising is acted upon with initial phone interviews. This will require a few long distance phone calls. Intitial phone results that have promise are reported to the fund authorizers, who determine if the media reports/initial phone interviews justify expending funds for 1st Responders.

1) Immediate transportation of "1st Responders", who perform the first face-to-face interviews, on-the-ground investigations, and the "1st Responder" decision of whether or not enough evidence is present to bring in additional assets. This can be accomplished by a two person crew. They would have to be able to go at any time, be able to then perform at location for perhaps two weeks away. These people should have good interviewing skills, good knowledge of Sasquatch historical reports, and decent outdoors/hunting/tracking skills. Costs to transport (RT) and lodge two people and provide basic vehicle rental for a week will run approximately $6,000, and salaries for two qualified 1st Responders per week shouldn't run much more than $8,000.

2) There should be funding set aside for a contract for immediate response for an established and active dog handler who has dogs experienced in tracking bear. The contract should be set up in advance, and the handler prepared to perform ASAP upon a telephone call. Funding should be set aside to provide for the transportation of these dogs and handler to the site. Finding such a dog team and handler will be difficult, and his ability to react quickly might not be possible, especially during the hunting seasons when he is usually busy. Experienced bear hunting dogs are extremely rare on this continent, but I've been told they exist. Just a guess, but round trip transportation might cost $5,000 or so, and a handler with 4 or 5 dogs might cost $500 - $750 per day, to total about $5,000 for a week of operations (only spent when the 1st Respond team thinks their use might bring fruit, ie fresh tracks/reports/ongoing reports). Total amount of about $10,000 in reserve.

3) Funding or a line of funding set aside should be available for any on-site transportation needs which might become necessary; air taxi operators, horse wranglers, ATV/ORV rentals, motorhome rental, etc. This cost will vary widely. A small aircraft can run $250 per hour, but will only be required during an on-site hunt, which has already shown some promise. This can include morning and evening aerial recon in a small airplane for a few days up to a contract for a one-time overflight with an IR equipped aircraft with a firm experienced in game counting for Fish and Game organizations.

4) There should be some equipment purchased and stored for a response event:

* A dozen or so top quality trail game cams
* At least two top quality night-vision goggles
* A couple of top quality tree stands
* A couple top quality pair of binoculars and a spotting scope
* One full top quality outfitting for a professional wildlife photographer, both still and moving, day and night, with zoom capability.

All this equipment is purchased and stored until a response event. It would be prepared to be shipped (crated/boxed/etc.) simiultaneous with the 1st Responder's deployment. All this might cost $25,000.

So, maybe a total of $50,000 to initially set up, $10,000 per year for phone/administrative/equipment storage/etc. per year, a funding reserve/commitment of $14,000 per week of 1st Responder operations (which I don't think would happen more than twice per year),



Twenty five years for a response capability.

I also think an initial electronic interview of all current government biologists should occur along with a simple policy change.

A mass emailed poll/questionnaire to all state and federal biologists in Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Texas, Ohio, and Florida should be conducted, asking if any of them have ever had an experience, found any possible evidence, or had any hunter or other public user report anything to them.

Also a policy change which simply required the reporting of any possible sasquatch activity or evidence to the Response organizers would be in order.

Cost of that?:

Virtually nothing.
Huntster, you've given the venture a good amount of thought and clearly have sized up the proposition. I do consider the SETI and ivory-billed woodpecker analogy in the end to be a hazardous comparison but I certainly understand the reasoning.

I think with the 'stand-by' and 'first responder' elements the proposition runs all the pitfalls of diminishing to something akin of a Peter Byrne-type ill endeavour. Logistically we certainly agree as to the difficulties of trying to comb through an area but I think the suggestion of the Alaskan/BC coastline and the Gifford Pinchot National Forest are on a wholly different scale of undertaking.

Simply, if the beast exists it does so in the confines of definable areas. This nomadic wraith ever elusive crap just doesn't fly for me. The GP Forest seems to me a far more managable area to deal with and ideal given the amount of reports and if we are to go on the assumption that we may actually find something I can not find a better place to look.

That said, why not piggy-back the project as Correa suggests? Why mess around with all the willy-nilly of trying to talk to government bodies about bigfoot? Use the same level of planning towards a project that is acceptable to government funding that would allow for approaching the BF concept in a realistic manner.

Ex: Such and such group need a year in the GF Forest cataloguing tree fungus growths and effects on fauna. Whatever, insert plausible reason for being in the area for an extended period here.

Obviously, I'm no expert but surely you get the gist of the concept. It just seems to me a more plausible means of addressing the phenomenom and I can't see dollar one being federally allocated to the search for bigfoot.
 
Maybe they don't want to let the cat out of the bag. Guile and all that.
Would they be so low?

See, I can understand some fellows (specially the amateurs or the people not related to some uni or research institute) would behave like that. But people like Meldrum and Krantz?

My take on the issue? If I were a biologist working in "bigfoot country", I would keep an eye open whenever I would be on the field even if I considered the chances of the creatures being real as very small.

Heck, I would probably keep an eye open even not being a biologist. Its an integral part of skepticism and critical thinking to be open to new evidence. And still, I am labelled a denialist by some...

For example, even considering UFOlogy mostly composed by nothing but a vast volume of (quite often smelly) hot air, I still keep an eye in the sky. Even if just for watching stars. What is already a good reason to watch the sky per se.

My question is:
For all the reports in hand, in the entire history of the natural study of the North American continent what incidents do we have of, say, spotted owl population researchers or something to that effect stumbling unawares across sasquatches?

I'm sure this tempts proponents to cite innumerable hunter encounters but with the inevitable lack of substantial supporting evidence and subsequent reasonings thereof is it not fairly moot? Simple concept- I spend a bunch of time in the forest counting marmots or whatever and then get harrassed by 8 ft bipedal primate. Anything?

You know, one of the topics I constantly raise is exactly about this. Its impossible to deny that there are people such as biologists, wildlife photographers and bird-watchers doing field work at "bigfoot country". Why they never report a bigfoot sighting? Its not because they are afraid of telling about it, each one of these professionals would try to grab with their hands and mouths the opportunity to be part of the discovery of such an animal. Its also not because these people are not looking for bigfoot, because in the wilderness, its quite common to find what you are not looking for. Its not because bigfeet are nocturnal, since there are lots of reports of bigfeet in plain daylight, not to mention PGF was not shot using IR or low-light gear...

As for a "bigfoot project", once again: If these creatures are real, the individuals, the groups have a routine. All animals are creatures of habits, and habits are predictable. It does not matter if they are supposed to be more intelligent than bears. Humans, with all their intelligence, can be stalked and ambushed. All animals have territories, they follow patterns, they tend to use the same trails, visit the same spots, drink at the same places, etc. Using the patterns one can set up an ambush, be it with game trail cameras or with people aremed with cameras or guns. The way to go would be to select one of the hotspots (its claimed that at some hotspots there are "dozens" of reports) and concentrate efforts there. Check the distribution of the "dozens" of sightings in space and time looking for patterns. Check the terrain, look for trails, footprints, check the area for a body, scat or hair. Use your head and set up cams or observatories at the spots considered as the most likely places where a bigfoot would pass.

This is not hard, this is not expensive and can be piggy backed at some project like say, ecology of [add real critter here] population. Heck, the Loch Ness folks obtained funding for sonar sweeps of the lake. Why the bogfoot folks can not obtain funding for something like the above?

But, when it comes to bigfoot research, there's always something missing, its always the "we were almost there but we had to give up because..." and/or the complains against skeptics and "mainstream science"...

Well, complaining and blaming someone else is always easier...
 
You know, one of the topics I constantly raise is exactly about this. Its impossible to deny that there are people such as biologists, wildlife photographers and bird-watchers doing field work at "bigfoot country". Why they never report a bigfoot sighting? Its not because they are afraid of telling about it, each one of these professionals would try to grab with their hands and mouths the opportunity to be part of the discovery of such an animal. Its also not because these people are not looking for bigfoot, because in the wilderness, its quite common to find what you are not looking for. Its not because bigfeet are nocturnal, since there are lots of reports of bigfeet in plain daylight, not to mention PGF was not shot using IR or low-light gear...

As for a "bigfoot project", once again: If these creatures are real, the individuals, the groups have a routine. All animals are creatures of habits, and habits are predictable. It does not matter if they are supposed to be more intelligent than bears. Humans, with all their intelligence, can be stalked and ambushed. All animals have territories, they follow patterns, they tend to use the same trails, visit the same spots, drink at the same places, etc. Using the patterns one can set up an ambush, be it with game trail cameras or with people aremed with cameras or guns. The way to go would be to select one of the hotspots (its claimed that at some hotspots there are "dozens" of reports) and concentrate efforts there. Check the distribution of the "dozens" of sightings in space and time looking for patterns. Check the terrain, look for trails, footprints, check the area for a body, scat or hair. Use your head and set up cams or observatories at the spots considered as the most likely places where a bigfoot would pass.

This is not hard, this is not expensive and can be piggy backed at some project like say, ecology of [add real critter here] population. Heck, the Loch Ness folks obtained funding for sonar sweeps of the lake. Why the bogfoot folks can not obtain funding for something like the above?

But, when it comes to bigfoot research, there's always something missing, its always the "we were almost there but we had to give up because..." and/or the complains against skeptics and "mainstream science"...

Well, complaining and blaming someone else is always easier...
Nails it. This is basically as good a sumation of what really sucks about bigfoot as I can think of. And wriggle and try as you might you just can't get away from the fact that all creatures are bound to their habits and patterns of behaviour. Simply an 8 ft, 1000 lb bipedal primate living in North America is going to have very specific habits and behaviours in the aquisition of food and contact with eachother that no matter how wily and rare you posit them their eluding identification as actual fauna within an ecosystem is not an encouraging concept.
 
But the initial funded search was already based on secondary evidence (something other than biological material) that could be discounted as possibly hoaxed, right? Why launch the search in the first place if hoaxable stuff is not considered as being meaningful?

The whole point of hoaxing is to try to convince the world that Bigfoot exists, even if one can never be found to give physical confirmation.

What if somebody creates a fake trackway a day in advance of the funded researchers' arrival? What if a funded researcher claimed that a 10 foot tall Bigfoot suddenly charged him from close range and it was so fast and terrifying that he couldn't get his finger on the record button of his camera?

What good is peer review for these kinds of secondary evidence? Who are the peers that do the reviewing? You'd need at least one of those "Bigfoot Experts" on the peer review board, right? The funded search would already be predicated upon believers convincing agencies that the existing secondary evidence fully justifies the endeavor. If the funder points out that "peer review" (it generally exists outside of professional science publication) has already brought out skepticism and claims of hoaxery - then the proponents must insist that the negative reviews are somehow invalid towards rejecting the project.

I think that the only hope for a big funded search would have to come from private enterprise that is already predisposed to Bigfoot existing. Many are going to be looking for a return on investment. They should know that a confirmation of a wild gigantic bipedal ape would be the top science story of the modern age and be worth millions of dollars. I can imagine a $10 million return to a person driving out of the woods with a Bigfoot body in their truck.
 
But the initial funded search was already based on secondary evidence (something other than biological material) that could be discounted as possibly hoaxed, right? Why launch the search in the first place if hoaxable stuff is not considered as being meaningful?
I think you're addressing Huntster's proposed effort as opposed to the round-about if not vague piggy-backed concept Correa originally suggested. Nevertheless, I'm not sure if you're point, while certainly valid, is consistent with the impetus of establishing the reality of the matter. Is it requisite to have primary evidence for which the possibility of hoaxing is definitively ruled out before engaging the endeavour? Does that not nullify the endeavour from the outset? I'm not sure if this is in line with the spirit of investigation but I suspect my reasoning may be flawed.
The whole point of hoaxing is to try to convince the world that Bigfoot exists, even if one can never be found to give physical confirmation.
Is it not the point at the core of the inquisition to overcome this facet and cut the bull$#!% as it were?
What if somebody creates a fake trackway a day in advance of the funded researchers' arrival? What if a funded researcher claimed that a 10 foot tall Bigfoot suddenly charged him from close range and it was so fast and terrifying that he couldn't get his finger on the record button of his camera?
Well, I think in terms of dealing with a proper prolonged effort aimed at establishing some form of habituation such an 'if' becomes irrelevant.
What good is peer review for these kinds of secondary evidence? Who are the peers that do the reviewing? You'd need at least one of those "Bigfoot Experts" on the peer review board, right? The funded search would already be predicated upon believers convincing agencies that the existing secondary evidence fully justifies the endeavor. If the funder points out that "peer review" (it generally exists outside of professional science publication) has already brought out skepticism and claims of hoaxery - then the proponents must insist that the negative reviews are somehow invalid towards rejecting the project.
So essentially everybody shut up and go home? And why is a 'BF expert' necessary?Somehow in this line of thinking I find (not yours) the skepticism lazy if not a hinderance to establishing with some kind of permanence an answer of any gravity.
I think that the only hope for a big funded search would have to come from private enterprise that is already predisposed to Bigfoot existing. Many are going to be looking for a return on investment. They should know that a confirmation of a wild gigantic bipedal ape would be the top science story of the modern age and be worth millions of dollars. I can imagine a $10 million return to a person driving out of the woods with a Bigfoot body in their truck.
I must agree with you here but regardless, throw all the money as such a group might if the come up with crap then they can't dress it any better than the abundance of crap we have now.
 
But the initial funded search was already based on secondary evidence (something other than biological material) that could be discounted as possibly hoaxed, right? Why launch the search in the first place if hoaxable stuff is not considered as being meaningful?
Well, that's the point.

If the evidence is flawed (inconsistent, inconclusive, useless and hoaxed) and the reasonings are unsound (because they are based on the poor evidence) then there's little if any reason to make any serious effort.

And IMHO this is exactly why mammalogists and wildlife photographers show little if any interest on the subject...

What if somebody creates a fake trackway a day in advance of the funded researchers' arrival? What if a funded researcher claimed that a 10 foot tall Bigfoot suddenly charged him from close range and it was so fast and terrifying that he couldn't get his finger on the record button of his camera?
No human enterprise is flawless, but see below.

What good is peer review for these kinds of secondary evidence? Who are the peers that do the reviewing? You'd need at least one of those "Bigfoot Experts" on the peer review board, right? ...snip...
Uhm, no, you would not need a "bigfoot expert" to review any paper. You would need mammalogists, primatologists, DNA specialists, physical antropologists, etc. Note that a paper announcing "bigfeet are real" would be Nature-level stuff and by no means backed by the flimsy and/or hoaxed pieces of evidence so far presented. Its also not like PEAR and their own "peer-reviewed" journal (BTW, where a paper on bigfoot was published). A bit more on this below.

I think that the only hope for a big funded search would have to come from private enterprise that is already predisposed to Bigfoot existing. Many are going to be looking for a return on investment. ..snip...
Again, nothing is flawless. The peer-review proccess minimizes the problems but does not erradicates them. Cold fusion and the recent South Korean stem cell research affair are examples.

Aniway, private organizations are (relatively) free to do with their money whatever they want. If they want to give their money to someone previously involved with frauds, its their problem. If they want to make a PEAR-like project (or something even more faulty), its their right, as it will be their responsability to withstand the consequences of their decision...
 
On the candidates for a bigfoot template...

(A) Gigantopithecus
Pros:
-About the required size
Cons:
-No evidence they ever lived in North America
-Chances are they were knuckle walkers
-The avaliable reconstructions do not look like Patty
-The avaliable evidence points to a specialized herbivore diet, instead the "generalistic opportunistic" diet inferred for bigfeet
-Avaliable evidence indicates they became extinct 200Ky ago.
Sources:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/giganto.html
http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/PNAS Giganto-Vietnam.pdf

(B) Paranthropus ("robustus" australopithecines)
Pros:
-Bipedal
-Avaliable reconstructions are not very different from some bigfoot renderings
Cons:
-Avaliable evidence indicates they were restricted to Africa
-Avaliable evidence indicated they were extincted 1My ago
-They were only 1.4 m tall
-Avaliable evidence indicates boisei were mainly herbivoral, instead the omnivore/opportunistic feeding habits bigfeet allegedly have; recent studies indicate, however, that robustus probably were omnivores
-Doesn't look like Patty
Sources:
http://www.humboldt.edu/~mrc1/paranthro.shtml
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/bos.html
http://www.modernhumanorigins.net/boisei.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/paranthropus-robustus
http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/homo.html
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusrobustus.htm
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusboisei.htm
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusaethiopicus.htm

(C)Meganthropus
Pros:
-May have been about the required size
-May have coehxisted with Homo sapiens
-Possibly omnivore/opportunistic
Cons:
-Restricted to Asia
-Reconstructions of Homo erectus (they are regarded as possibly being a subspecies from H. erectus) does not look at all like most bigfoot renderings or Patty
-The species is controversial
-The largest size estimates (2.4 to 2.7 meters) are taken nowdays as probably exagerated. Note: if the average H. Sapiens were say, 1.7m tall, a 1.8 to 1.9 m tall H. erectus would be a giant for them...
-May be 0.6 My older than H. erectus

Sources:
http://www.answers.com/topic/meganthropus
http://www.springerlink.com/content/664230u49412345h/
http://ijh.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.26/prod.298
http://bioanth.anth.ubc.ca/documents/Wood_and_Collard_1999b.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganthropus
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=8108729&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/homoerectus.htm


Notes:
-Many consider the genus Paranthropus is polyphyletic and invalid, its species actually belonging to the Australopithecus genus.
-The name Meganthropus africanus was initially used for a A. robustus specimen; this probably is the source of Coleman's mistaken claim that A. robustus were about the same size bigfeet are alleged to be.
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusrobustus.htm
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusboisei.htm
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/australopithecusaethiopicus.htm
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/giganto-or-paranthropus/


I see more cons than pros for all the candidates...

And remember:
If its not bipedal, 2 to 3m tall, matches the most common bigfoot renderings or Patty and coehxists(ed) in North America with humans, its not bigfoot...
 
Last edited:
....They should know that a confirmation of a wild gigantic bipedal ape would be the top science story of the modern age and be worth millions of dollars.....

Pray tell:

Who pays these "millions of dollars"? Is it "the book deal"?

Are you suggesting that science pay "ransom" for the carcass of "discovered" creatures?

You're arguing now against the funding of a fraction of $1 million dollars now, even though it is the clear responsibility of wildlife management agencies to manage wildlife.

I can imagine a $10 million return to a person driving out of the woods with a Bigfoot body in their truck.

I can imagine the USFWS seizing such a carcass, charging Joe Sixpack for shooting it, then turning the carcass over to the very entities who are fighting the present research today.
 
On the candidates for a bigfoot template...
Well, to be fair I think as LAL has mentioned a proponent need only assert that it's not necessary to attach bigfoot to something we have fossil evidence of as it just as well could be descended from something we just haven't dug up yet.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make a heck of a lot of proponents trying really hard to make bigfoot out of something we have dug up.
Oh look! A box!:boxedin:
 
Originally Posted by Correa Neto
On the candidates for a bigfoot template...
Well, to be fair I think as LAL has mentioned a proponent need only assert that it's not necessary to attach bigfoot to something we have fossil evidence of as it just as well could be descended from something we just haven't dug up yet.....

Which is, in fact, the common trend.

Gorilla fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, gorilla fossils are still not widely found (if found at all).

Okapi fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, okapi fossils are still not found (if found at all).

Chimpanzee fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, chimpanzee fossils are still not widely found (if found at all).

However, bipedal ape fossils have been dug up. We know they have existed.......
 
Which is, in fact, the common trend.

Gorilla fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, gorilla fossils are still not widely found (if found at all).

Okapi fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, okapi fossils are still not found (if found at all).

Chimpanzee fossils were not dug up before they were "discovered" by science. In fact, chimpanzee fossils are still not widely found (if found at all).

However, bipedal ape fossils have been dug up. We know they have existed.......

Yep, about 13 species, last time I checked.

There have been no Gorilla or Okapi fossils found, to my knowlege, and only three fossil chimpanzee teeth.

"Based on the other fossils that were found at the site, including hippopotamus, crocodile, catfish, and turtle bones, Jablonski concluded that the ancient chimp lived on the shore of a lake in a fairly wet, wooded habitat. This type of environment – the same type of environment chimps prefer today – is probably the reason that no chimp fossils had ever been found before now. Bones tend to rot away in wet habitats, so it is rare for them to remain in the fossil record in these environments. Luckily, teeth are more likely to be preserved, since tooth enamel is harder and denser than bone."

http://www.calacademy.org/geninfo/newsroom/releases/2005/Jablonski fossil chimp.html

Acid soils eat teeth.
 
...snip...

Acid soils eat teeth.

So what?

Fossils are preserved in sediments, not soil... Physical processes involved in soil formation and sediment transport/deposition as well as Ph/Eh conditions, for example, are completely different.
 
So what?

Fossils are preserved in sediments, not soil... Physical processes involved in soil formation and sediment transport/deposition as well as Ph/Eh conditions, for example, are completely different.

Remains have to be preserved long enough to become fossils. This doesn't happen when the scavenger system takes care of the flesh and bones and even the teeth are dissolved in soil.

Gigantopithecus was widespread and long-lived as a species, but the three jawbones all came from one site (a karst cave near Liucheng, Guangxi, southern China). They were transported by water or porcupines.

We've already done bears.
 
Why they never report a bigfoot sighting? Its not because they are afraid of telling about it,

You've been given an example of one who did. He's not only reported his encounter, he's involved in Jeff Meldrum's North American Ape project.
 
Well, to be fair I think as LAL has mentioned a proponent need only assert that it's not necessary to attach bigfoot to something we have fossil evidence of as it just as well could be descended from something we just haven't dug up yet.

Nevertheless, that doesn't make a heck of a lot of proponents trying really hard to make bigfoot out of something we have dug up.
Oh look! A box!:boxedin:
Sure, one might speculate on unknown fossil species. But again, its just speculation and is useless when it come to provide some backing to the claim "bigfeet are real". Some persons made claims that certain fossil species could be bigfoot. Such claims can be tested. I made a quick check and found there's no actual match.

Fossil register provides little if any backing to the "bigfoot are real creatures claim". The best one could say is if sasquatch myth was brought from Asia with the people that would later become known as Native Americans, the Asiatic fossil species could be possible templates for sasquatch. But this is just speculation... Temptating, but still, only speculation.

I can make some too... There may be other sources, including in the Americas...
 
Remains have to be preserved long enough to become fossils. This doesn't happen when the scavenger system takes care of the flesh and bones and even the teeth are dissolved in soil.

Gigantopithecus was widespread and long-lived as a species, but the three jawbones all came from one site (a karst cave near Liucheng, Guangxi, southern China). They were transported by water or porcupines.

We've already done bears.
LAL, we already discussed this before... Again, fossils are preserved in sediment, not soil. Different Ph, different Eh, diffrent physical and chemical procceses.

Soil is created by weathering of rocks. It stays where it is formed or suffers little transport; Its what you find

Sediment is material that is transported (usually by water, ice or air) and eventually deposited somewhere. Sediments are loose material created by weathering of rocks are removed from their "birthplace" by water, ice or wind and deposited somewhere else (a sand bar at a river bed, a muddy lake bottom, a dune at a desert, etc.). Sediments, after consolidation, become sedimentary rocks. Sedimentary rocks may suffer weathering if exposed at the surface and the cycle continues...

Thus, its not important if the soil is acid or not.

I explained you there's no need for the remains to stay in the soil for long enough to become fossilized. Here's how it happens:

1) Preservation at caves:
a) Animal dies for some reason at a forest. It rains, surficial run of water carries the carcass (usually parts of it) to a cave, calcium carbonates or sediments carried by water do the preservation trick.
b) Animal dies for some reason at a forest. Scavengers carry the carcass (usually parts of it) to a cave. Calcium carbonates or sediments carried by water do the preservation trick.
c) Predator kills animal at a forest and carries the carcass (or parts of it) to a cave. Calcium carbonates or sediments carried by water do the preservation trick.
d) Animal enters cave looking for shelter or water and dies there (it may be wounded, sick, weak, was lost inside the cave, broke a limb after falling, etc.). Calcium carbonates or sediments carried by water do the preservation trick.

2) Preservation at river systems:
A) Animal dies near a river margin or crossing a river. Water carries the carcass or parts of it, carcass is left at some calm site (sometimes kilometers away from the original spot), sediment covers and preserves it.
B) Animal dies at the forest; river floods the area, deposits mud and/or silt over the carcass (that may or not be transported by the flowing water) and preserve the specimen.

3) Preservation at lakes:
Animal dies at a lake shore, the carcass (or parts of it) are covered and preserved by sediments.

See? No influence of acid soils...

And the circunstances regarding the preservation of Gigantopithecus are no surprise. Could be the same for a bigfoot, if the critters were real. Or those of the Caipora bambuirorum...

The bottomline is:
The fossil register provides no backing for the claim bigfeet are real.
 
Last edited:
Oh, f'r Pete' sake. Yes, we've been over it and you didn't learn a thing.

Fossilization is an extremly rare event. If it were as easy as you imply our lakeshores would be littered with fossils and our caves crammed.

An animal dying in a forest is on top of acid soil. The body is scavenged by bears, coyotes, vultures................mice eat the bones for calcium. Bacteria and fungi work on anything that may be left. The teeth are the hardest part of the body, but if they're deposited in acid soil they dissolve.

I know of no lava tubes harboring fossils.

"Fossils are found in sedimentary rocks - mainly limestones, siltstones and mudstones - that were deposited in former lakes, rivers, estuaries, seas and caves. Fossils are never found in igneous rocks nor in highly metamorphosed rocks. The only organic remains which are available to us are those which have been preserved in rocks."

And:

"Burial is an essential part of the process of fossilization. Preservation of a skeleton is most likely to occur if burial occurs soon after death. Such an event is very rare. Terrestrial organisms usually fall to the ground at death. There they may be subject to a range of processes:

- scavenging by carrion eaters such hyenas and vultures.

- decay of soft tissue as decomposing fungi and bacteria operate.

- scattering and fragmentation of bones by trampling animals and wind.

- abrasion by wind-blown sand or in-stream transport.

- dehydration and splitting in the sun.

- chemical and physical weathering on and in the soil.

Decay within the soil is largely controlled by soil acidity: in wet acid soils containing air, bone dissolves completely; in wet alkaline soils bone is preserved; in dry alkaline soils, bone protein is lost but a weakened fossil is preserved; in wet, airless, acid soil (such as peat) soft tissue may be preserved with bone. A result of such processes is that the great majority of animals which fall on land are not preserved in the fossil record."


http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes...sAndFossilisation/Fossilation/Fossilation.htm

Was a late Pleistocene fossil bed containing fossils of forest dwelling animals ever located in mountainous regions of the PNW? B.C.? The Ohio Valley even?

Why are there no Gorilla fossils and only three fossil Chimpanzee teeth?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom