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Did Bush watch plane hit the first tower ?

Cl- I'll start with you. you have got to be kidding if you think that taco stands roof collapsing is even in the ballpark. Maybe some of rolls of toilet paper stacked up kept the roof from coming down completely. O.K lets change it too when was the last time you saw a high rise steel framed building collapse completely that wasn't a demolition.
As to your point on windsor, why didn't the collapse spread laterally as you say happened in WTC.
Horatius- Do you really believe you could bring down the towers in a controlled demolition without damaging the nearby buildings. Good luck.

Actually the toilet roll factory is a VERY good example for two reasons:

1. It shows how a steel framed structure without 20 storeys of loading on top of it can fail catastrophically due to fire alone (You know that annoying type of fire which is only fueled by household objects such as desks and chairs and...ermmm... toilet paper)

2. Toilet paper is the best answer for the majority of CT questions
 
Horatius- Do you really believe you could bring down the towers in a controlled demolition without damaging the nearby buildings. Good luck.

I'm not a CD expert, so I can't say what they could accomplish. I will mention that no one has ever done a CD on such a large structure, and no one has ever done it in a top-down manner, and no one have ever done it after a plane has hit the building, and no one has ever done it after the building has been burning for an hour or so.

So, do you really believe someone would do (at least) four (4) completely new things all at once, twice in a row?

And not make any mistakes?
 
Actually the toilet roll factory is a VERY good example for two reasons:

1. It shows how a steel framed structure without 20 storeys of loading on top of it can fail catastrophically due to fire alone (You know that annoying type of fire which is only fueled by household objects such as desks and chairs and...ermmm... toilet paper)

2. Toilet paper is the best answer for the majority of CT questions
#1 also applies to the kader toy factory
 
Non Believer

This is quite simple, and I don't see why you have difficulty with it (barring the fact that you clearly have no experience whatsoever of structural design).

1. Buildings are designed to accommodate dead (i.e. self weight) and live (people, furniture, wind, etc) loadings. These design values are then subject to safety factors based on credible risks, set out in various design codes and standards.

2. Design of framed buildings such as the tower are complex; I do not intend to discuss in any depth the various jointing and connection techniques however a joint - welded or bolted - will only be designed to take specific loadings. These loadings will be for specific directions.

3. Lest anyone doubt how complex this is, then remember the case of Citicorp. If you have no idea about Citicorp without having to Google, then do not trouble this board with any claims of structural expertise.

4. It may be helpful if you consider the complete tower structure - floors, inner core, and outer facade - as acting together as a large girder, or space frame (you must be familiar with both of these). Damage to or loss of one element can and will have an effect on the overall stability of the "girder".

5. The towers were built with spare structural capacity, however a significant part of this was compromised in the initial impact. Further damage was cause dby the fires. Although the designers claim that the design was built to accommodate an aircraft impact, no calculations have ever been produced to show the extent of this (I refer you again to Citicorp) and there were (a) no applicable design codes or guidance at the time and (b) limited computer modelling techniques available at the time.

6. The fire weakened the floor trusses, causing sag. This in turn led to deflection of the outer structural envelope (or facade). The steel could not accommodate the required loadings at this point (a buckled structural member will be weaker, even before we consider the impact of buckling on joints). The hat trusses probably served to redistribute loads, but ultimately exceeded design capacity and failed.

7. At this point, failure of the supporting structure for the upper part of the building is inevitable and what is frankly a massive amount of material begins to move downwards at a 9.8ms/-2. The momentum and mass are substantial.

8. The structure below is not intact, because the hat trusses are no longer doing their work and the bracing effect of the upper structure has been lost. It is overly simplistic to suggest that this portion of the building is sound.

9. The steel joints, etc. are not designed to accommodate the loadings imposed by the impact of this massive mass and momentum. They are deisgned to accommodate normal loadings, which will be many magnitudes less. They will fail; there is no doubt about this, from a structural perspective. The time involved with be absolutely minimal. Although not a NIST document, Greening's paper (again you should be familiar with this) gives you a very basic idea of the kind of issues we're talking about.

10. At this point the collapse becomes progressive and self-perpetuating.

Let me give you a simple analogy (not my own, I hasten to add).

If you put a brick on your head, there will be no problems. You will be able to walk around (subject to balance), suffer no injuries, and so on. The additional dead lead of the brick (together with minimal live load for wind, etc. on it's faces) is well within the "design" load of your skeleton.

If we drop that brick from just 0.5 metres (far less than the floor-ceiling height of wtc) then you will suffer severe head injuries. If we drop it 2.5 metres, you will suffer major head and spinal injuries. Realistically, you will die.

Now as far as I can see, the ol' canard you're attempting to pull out of the hat is the one about the resistence of each floor sufficiently slowing down the collapse in order to markedly influence total collapse time.

I have to tell you that the sheer mass and momentum of the upper (mobile) structure is such that it's not going to make bugger all difference. We're talking about tiny fractions of a second each floor, not seconds.

This is what we, as trained professionals, would expect. Number crunching is irrelevant.

Now if you want to prove differently, don't demand that other people do your work for you. Go and find out how each joint was formed. Calculate the design loadings, then look at the imposed loadings from the collapse. Calculate the length of time to failure. THEN come back and tell us if there's an issue or not.

And this, I believe, is where YOU have a problem. You don't understand structures in any competent manner. Hell I work on tall structures every day of the working week and I have to get a team of real experts from Arup do the number crunching for me, so what hope has a lay person got?

Intead you try to claim that NIST have been remiss in not calculating something wholly irrelevant.

You cherry pick facts and soundbites, other (wholly irrelevant) cases such as Windsor. Tell me, NB, do you really know about the Citicorp Building without looking it up on Google? Have you ever heard of Ronan Point? How much do you understand about the actual performance of fires without going to Wiki?

Have you read the Sheffield University research papers? Were you even aware that Sheffield University (it's in the UK, btw)has a highly respected fire engineering unit?

Did you know that Edinburgh University (that's in the UK too) had published a paper suggesting through fire modelling that the trusses would have failed even withouth the aircraft impact? Likewise have you seen the Arup papers which seperately came to the same conclusion?

Have you looked at the various engineering media reports on the collapse (NCE would be a good start, but I suspect you've never heard of that either) in order to try and understand how we as an industry have viewed and understood the collapse.

I can go on all day with a list of architectural, structural, and fire engineering issues which you have to understand before you can even begin to comment on the NIST report with any degree of confidence. Each of these disciplines requires between 5 and 7 years of university study, with intensive study.

So with the deepest respect, don't read a few general web sites and then come back and start chucking about structural theories or "common sense".
 
As I asked Bell, at what point does the damage above become unsupportable for the structure below? One floor, two. Five elephants put in one of the offices after dinner. Give me something.

Cl-To answer your question. Yes the one and only time I saw it was Sept 11. Here is one for you - When was the last time you saw a steel framed building collapse that wasn't from demolition
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf Section
2.2.1.1
American Airlines Flight 11 struck the north face of WTC 1 approximately between the 94th and
98th floors

2.2.1.5
Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4x10^11 joules of potential energy over the
1,368-foot height of the structure. Of this, approximately 8x10^9 joules of potential energy were stored in the
upper part of the structure, above the impact floors, relative to the lowest point of impact.

2.2.2.1
United Airlines Flight 175 struck the south face of WTC 2 approximately between the 78th and 84th
floors.


For WTC 1, the top 12 floors of the tower translates into 8x10^9 joules of the total 4x10^11 joules. So, the top ~10.9% of WTC 1 contained ~2% of the entire PE of WTC 1. Extrapolating this on to WTC 2 (since the above mentioned report does not specify the amount PE contained above the WTC 2 impact point) we get the following:
WTC 2 => top 26 floors => ~23.6% of WTC 2.
If ~10.9% of WTC 1 translates into 8x10^9 joules PE
Then ~23.6% of WTC 2 translates into N joules PE
Therefore 10.9/8*10^9 = 23.6/N
=> 10.9*N/8*10^9 = 23.6
=> 10.9*N = 23.6*(8*10^9)
=> N = 23.6*(8*10^9)/10.9
=> N = 17321100917.431192660550458715596
=> N = 17.3*10^9 joules PE
=> ~34.7% of the entire PE of WTC 2
http://arkanwolfshade.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9E151F6EB6C7A35D!304.entry
 
Non Believer

This is quite simple, and I don't see why you have difficulty with it (barring the fact that you clearly have no experience whatsoever of structural design).

1. Buildings are designed to accommodate dead (i.e. self weight) and live (people, furniture, wind, etc) loadings. These design values are then subject to safety factors based on credible risks, set out in various design codes and standards.

2. Design of framed buildings such as the tower are complex; I do not intend to discuss in any depth the various jointing and connection techniques however a joint - welded or bolted - will only be designed to take specific loadings. These loadings will be for specific directions.

3. Lest anyone doubt how complex this is, then remember the case of Citicorp. If you have no idea about Citicorp without having to Google, then do not trouble this board with any claims of structural expertise.

4. It may be helpful if you consider the complete tower structure - floors, inner core, and outer facade - as acting together as a large girder, or space frame (you must be familiar with both of these). Damage to or loss of one element can and will have an effect on the overall stability of the "girder".

5. The towers were built with spare structural capacity, however a significant part of this was compromised in the initial impact. Further damage was cause dby the fires. Although the designers claim that the design was built to accommodate an aircraft impact, no calculations have ever been produced to show the extent of this (I refer you again to Citicorp) and there were (a) no applicable design codes or guidance at the time and (b) limited computer modelling techniques available at the time.

6. The fire weakened the floor trusses, causing sag. This in turn led to deflection of the outer structural envelope (or facade). The steel could not accommodate the required loadings at this point (a buckled structural member will be weaker, even before we consider the impact of buckling on joints). The hat trusses probably served to redistribute loads, but ultimately exceeded design capacity and failed.

7. At this point, failure of the supporting structure for the upper part of the building is inevitable and what is frankly a massive amount of material begins to move downwards at a 9.8ms/-2. The momentum and mass are substantial.

8. The structure below is not intact, because the hat trusses are no longer doing their work and the bracing effect of the upper structure has been lost. It is overly simplistic to suggest that this portion of the building is sound.

9. The steel joints, etc. are not designed to accommodate the loadings imposed by the impact of this massive mass and momentum. They are deisgned to accommodate normal loadings, which will be many magnitudes less. They will fail; there is no doubt about this, from a structural perspective. The time involved with be absolutely minimal. Although not a NIST document, Greening's paper (again you should be familiar with this) gives you a very basic idea of the kind of issues we're talking about.

10. At this point the collapse becomes progressive and self-perpetuating.

Let me give you a simple analogy (not my own, I hasten to add).

If you put a brick on your head, there will be no problems. You will be able to walk around (subject to balance), suffer no injuries, and so on. The additional dead lead of the brick (together with minimal live load for wind, etc. on it's faces) is well within the "design" load of your skeleton.

If we drop that brick from just 0.5 metres (far less than the floor-ceiling height of wtc) then you will suffer severe head injuries. If we drop it 2.5 metres, you will suffer major head and spinal injuries. Realistically, you will die.

Now as far as I can see, the ol' canard you're attempting to pull out of the hat is the one about the resistence of each floor sufficiently slowing down the collapse in order to markedly influence total collapse time.

I have to tell you that the sheer mass and momentum of the upper (mobile) structure is such that it's not going to make bugger all difference. We're talking about tiny fractions of a second each floor, not seconds.

This is what we, as trained professionals, would expect. Number crunching is irrelevant.

Now if you want to prove differently, don't demand that other people do your work for you. Go and find out how each joint was formed. Calculate the design loadings, then look at the imposed loadings from the collapse. Calculate the length of time to failure. THEN come back and tell us if there's an issue or not.

And this, I believe, is where YOU have a problem. You don't understand structures in any competent manner. Hell I work on tall structures every day of the working week and I have to get a team of real experts from Arup do the number crunching for me, so what hope has a lay person got?

Intead you try to claim that NIST have been remiss in not calculating something wholly irrelevant.

You cherry pick facts and soundbites, other (wholly irrelevant) cases such as Windsor. Tell me, NB, do you really know about the Citicorp Building without looking it up on Google? Have you ever heard of Ronan Point? How much do you understand about the actual performance of fires without going to Wiki?

Have you read the Sheffield University research papers? Were you even aware that Sheffield University (it's in the UK, btw)has a highly respected fire engineering unit?

Did you know that Edinburgh University (that's in the UK too) had published a paper suggesting through fire modelling that the trusses would have failed even withouth the aircraft impact? Likewise have you seen the Arup papers which seperately came to the same conclusion?

Have you looked at the various engineering media reports on the collapse (NCE would be a good start, but I suspect you've never heard of that either) in order to try and understand how we as an industry have viewed and understood the collapse.

I can go on all day with a list of architectural, structural, and fire engineering issues which you have to understand before you can even begin to comment on the NIST report with any degree of confidence. Each of these disciplines requires between 5 and 7 years of university study, with intensive study.

So with the deepest respect, don't read a few general web sites and then come back and start chucking about structural theories or "common sense".

Now that is definitely a post worth repeating.

Often.
 
Cl- I'll start with you. you have got to be kidding if you think that taco stands roof collapsing is even in the ballpark. Maybe some of rolls of toilet paper stacked up kept the roof from coming down completely.
I met your challenge as it was stated. Your failure in constructing it is not my problem.

O.K lets change it too when was the last time you saw a high rise steel framed building collapse completely that wasn't a demolition.
Personally, never. I do, however, vaguely remember an accident in which a commercial airliner crashed into a hotel building (or apartment complex). The impacted section of the building did collapse so that there was an entire section of it missing, from top to bottom.

Even that, however, is quite a different situation than what occurred to the twin towers on 9/11. And that's really the point...

When was the last time you saw a building similar in design to the twin towers impacted by a commercial airliner, resulting in severe structural damage and significant fires for upwards of an hour?

As to your point on windsor, why didn't the collapse spread laterally as you say happened in WTC.
Do you know that it didn't? Have you seen video of it's collapse?
 
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Typos And Minor Glitches Corrected!

Non Believer

This is quite simple, and I don't see why you have difficulty with it (barring the fact that you clearly have no experience whatsoever of structural design).

1. Buildings are designed to accommodate dead (i.e. self weight) and live (people, furniture, wind, etc) loadings. These design values are then subject to safety factors based on credible risks, set out in various design codes and standards.

2. Design of framed buildings such as the tower is complex; I do not intend to discuss in any depth the various jointing and connection techniques however a joint - welded or bolted - will only be designed to take specific loadings. These loadings will be for specific directions.

3. Lest anyone doubt how complex this all is, then remember the case of the Citicorp building. If you have no idea about Citicorp without having to Google, then do not trouble this board with any claims of structural expertise.

4. It may be helpful if you consider the complete tower structure - floors, inner core, and outer facade - as acting together as a large girder, or space frame (you must be familiar with both of these). Damage to or loss of one element can and will have an effect on the overall stability of the "girder".

5. The towers were built with spare structural capacity, however a significant part of this was compromised in the initial impact. Further damage was cause dby the fires. Although the designers claim that the design was built to accommodate an aircraft impact, no calculations have ever been produced to show the extent of this (I refer you again to Citicorp); there were (a) no applicable design codes or guidance at the time and (b) limited computer modelling techniques available at the time.

6. The fire weakened the floor trusses, causing sag. This in turn led to deflection of the outer structural envelope (or facade). The steel could not accommodate the required loadings at this point (a buckled structural member will be weaker, even before we consider the impact of buckling on joints and risk of their failure). The hat trusses probably served to redistribute loads, but ultimately exceeded design capacity and failed.

7. At this point, failure of the supporting structure for the upper part of the building is inevitable and what is frankly a massive amount of material begins to move downwards at a 9.8ms/-2. The momentum and mass are substantial.

8. The structure below is not intact, because the hat trusses are no longer doing their work and the bracing effect of the upper structure has been lost. It is overly simplistic to suggest that this portion of the building is sound, a point usually overlooked by "alternative" theories.

9. The steel joints, etc. are not designed to accommodate the loadings imposed by the impact of this massive mass and momentum. They are deisgned to accommodate normal loadings, which will be many magnitudes less. They will fail; there is absolutely no doubt about this, from a structural perspective. The time involved with be absolutely minimal. Although not a NIST document, Greening's paper (again you should be familiar with this) gives you a very basic idea of the kind of issues we're talking about.

10. At this point the collapse becomes progressive and self-perpetuating.

Let me give you a simple analogy (not my own, I hasten to add, but a rather a very good, simple way of looking at the problem posted elsewhere).

If you put a brick on your head, there will be no problems. You will be able to walk around (subject to balance), suffer no injuries, and so on. The additional dead lead of the brick (together with minimal live load for wind, etc. on it's faces) is well within the "design" load of your skeleton.

If we drop that brick from just 0.5 metres (far less than the floor-ceiling height of wtc) then you will suffer major head injuries. If we drop it 2.5 metres, you will suffer severe head and spinal injuries. Realistically, you will die.

Now as far as I can see, the ol' canard you're attempting to pull out of the hat is the one about the resistence of each floor sufficiently slowing down the collapse in order to markedly influence total collapse time.

I have to tell you that the sheer mass and momentum of the upper (mobile) structure is such that it's going to make bugger-all difference. We're talking about tiny fractions of a second each floor, not seconds.

This is what we, as trained professionals, would expect. Number crunching is irrelevant.

Now if you want to prove differently, don't demand that other people do your work for you. Go and find out how each joint was formed. Calculate the design loadings, then look at the imposed loadings from the collapse. Calculate the length of time to failure. THEN come back and tell us if there's an issue or not.

And this, I believe, is where YOU have a problem. You don't understand structures in any competent manner. Hell I work on tall structures every day of the working week and I have to get a team of real experts from Arup do the number crunching for me on a tall buildings project, so what hope has a lay person got?

Intead you try to claim that NIST have been remiss in not calculating something wholly irrelevant.

You cherry pick facts and soundbites, other (wholly irrelevant) cases such as Windsor. Tell me, NB, do you really know about the Citicorp Building without looking it up on Google? Have you ever heard of Ronan Point? How much do you understand about the actual performance of fires without going to Wiki?

Have you read the Sheffield University research papers? Were you even aware that Sheffield University (it's in the UK, btw)has a highly respected fire engineering unit?

Did you know that Edinburgh University (that's in the UK too) had published a paper suggesting through fire modelling that the trusses would have failed even withouth the aircraft impact? Likewise have you seen the Arup papers which seperately came to the same conclusion?

When considering the susceptibility of steel buildings to fire, were you aware that every single building standards/regulatory code in the West (and I suspect elsewhere) had identified the problem for at least 20 years (when I started training) and probably a lot longer? Were you aware that steel firms such as Corus publish extensive advice on this?

Do you know how we protect steel against fire? Are you aware of the different systems available and fire ratings? Hell, do you even know what intumescent means without looking it up on Google?

Have you looked at the various engineering media reports on the collapse (NCE would be a good start, but I suspect you've never heard of that either) in order to try and understand how we as an industry have viewed and understood the collapse.

I can go on all day with a list of architectural, structural, and fire engineering issues which you have to understand before you can even begin to comment on the NIST report with any degree of confidence. Each of these disciplines requires between 5 and 7 years of a university education, with intensive study across a whole range of specialist topics. This is then followed by practical, on-the-job training.

So with the deepest respect, don't read a few general web sites and then come back and start chucking about structural theories or "common sense".
 
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Architect said:
I have to tell you that the sheer mass and momentum of the upper (mobile) structure is such that it's not going to make bugger-all difference.
Misplaced "not" in that sentence. Just fyi.

I'm interested in this sentence, but it doesn't seem to be complete:
Architect said:
When considering the susceptibility of steel buildings to fire, were you aware that every single building standards/regulatory code in the West (and I suspect elsewhere) identifies the for at least 20 years (when I started training) and probably a lot longer?
 
Last edited:
Architect said:
If you put a brick on your head, there will be no problems. You will be able to walk around (subject to balance), suffer no injuries, and so on. The additional dead lead of the brick (together with minimal live load for wind, etc. on it's faces) is well within the "design" load of your skeleton.

If we drop that brick from just 0.5 metres (far less than the floor-ceiling height of wtc) then you will suffer major head injuries. If we drop it 2.5 metres, you will suffer severe head and spinal injuries. Realistically, you will die.
Now imagine that the brick is replaced by a 1 ton weight, and try to estimate just how much less than freefall acceleration will be displayed by the falling ton weight.
 
Larry,

Text fixed, thanks. Damned painkillers!!

THe point I was trying to make was that it's actually quite a light object, in comparison the strength of your skeleton, and yet from a height it would kill you with no difficulty.

The 1 tonne parallel is nice, because of course you would offer so little resistance to it that there would be practically no discernable impact on free fall acceleration.

Clearly the CT mob would expect it to knock your head off, but then rest on your shoulders.....
 
Larry,

Text fixed, thanks. Damned painkillers!!

THe point I was trying to make was that it's actually quite a light object, in comparison the strength of your skeleton, and yet from a height it would kill you with no difficulty.

The 1 tonne parallel is nice, because of course you would offer so little resistance to it that there would be practically no discernable impact on free fall acceleration.

Clearly the CT mob would expect it to knock your head off, but then rest on your shoulders.....

Well, in their case, since it is hitting something of such high density, it might well bounce off without any discernable effects.
 
Yes, but only after stopping at every obstruction (like a bone), so that each element begins to freefall from a standing start, which means that the body will be crushed in no less than 17 seconds. And will be inside out and upside down at the bottom of it. (c) Judy Wood.
 

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