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Iraq: Helping the US

Ahh, revisionist history
Translated, that means your bluff has been called and you've been caught out with your pants down, and now you haven't got the slightest clue what to say.

Or you, if you had any idea of recent history at all, you could try actually backing your claims up.

Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha HA. :D I would love to see you try.
 
I should add this. Sent by PM too, but reduplication never hurts.
Howdy.
It strikes me that I should make some sort of apology and explanation to you. I have been subjected to a great deal of personal abuse on boards, and I tend to react .... strongly. It's also a sensitive subject; I couldn't believe my eyes a few days ago when another poster wrote, "I don't expect non-Americans to understand". Sheeesh. I lost all my respect for that particular poster in one go, since it was equivalent to writing "I don't expect whites/blacks to understand", IOW arrogant nonsense.

Obviously both you and I are very upset about Iraq2, if for very different reasons and from different angles. I see your concerns now that you showed them; I don't agree with you, but I will open a new thread to say why.

More importantly, I will try not to be my brusque aggro self when dealing with you. You won my respect for making that apology; in my eyes, seriously, you proved your personal worth, even if you think I am barking mad and suspiciously lefty.
So: my own apologies for leaping in boots and all,
And a happy season and New Year to you,
Gurdur

This was kind for you to write here. I am burning out with the personal attacks, too, and wish we could all stick to the topic, or at least find humor in the comments without the personal put-downs. Thank you again, Gurdur.
 
Just as raw material costs would greatly increase if rich countries stopped producing them too - you seem to be ignoring the rather pertinent fact that rich countries also produce raw materials, and that raw materials produced by rich countries are also cheap.

Yes. And if the rich countries would stop production of everything except raw materials, they would no longer be rich.

If it was profitable to put a factory to manufacture sneakers in Cameroon, someone would do it, and to hell with the IMF. Why don't they? Is it because of Cameroon's debt? Is it because of the IMF? No, it's because corruption and bad governance make investing in a factory in Cameroon far too risky. Remove those risks, and foreign investment would pour in.

But the IMF (or rather, the industrial powers, using IMF as a tool) keeps these countries from such development. Corruption will always be rampant in dog-eat-dog societies. It's completely delusional to believe that one day these governments will suddenly become efficient and free of corruption, when the societies are still wretchedly poor.

To fight corruption, we have to fight poverty at the same time. This means establishing more advanced industries. Having a foreign investor start a sneaker factory is of little help by the way, as the profits will all leave the country and will not be re-invested. At any sign of increasing wages, the factory will move to the next poor country. It can never be the solution, and although I don't think governments should actively work to prevent such 'investment', it should be no object of desire either.

No protectionism would be needed either, because foreign investment could create first-rate capital to make profitable products and sell to foreign markets at a profit.

Such capital would typically be of none or very little advantage to the country, however.

How low? What's their average tarriffs? Give me some figures.

Among the lowest in the world. I gave you three examples. Now it's your turn.

No, it's true NOW. Our exports are indeed balancing our imports. What you fail to understand is that there's a foreign demand for American currency, which we are exporting. Foreign investors want to own dollars, and they will pay for them. There's no "long run" involved: the balance exists right now.

Well, the US is not (majorly) financing its trade deficit by printing more dollar bills, as I hope you're aware. The deficit causes the US to be more and more indebted to other countries, or other countries owning a greater and greater share of former American assets. However, this is besides the point. Of course a poor country investing to create an industry needs immediate financing, loans for example.

Yes it does. Your only conception of its failures is false, because you don't realize that currency is also a product, which is also in demand.

I suggest you read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Most of this book is dedicated to countering this false belief, and Smith does so excellently. Money - whether it is gold, dollar bills, or whatever - is a symbol, not a value by itself. A country cannot finance itself by exporting money, nor can it get rich by amassing it. By exporting dollars - in effect, taking loans or selling property - the US is getting neither richer or poorer. If the value exchanged for it is used for investment, there is no harm. But if it is used for consumption - as evidenced by the trade deficit - it makes the US poorer indeed.

Again, you KEEP being wrong about this. It doesn't MATTER if those countries became industrialized: they would STILL sell raw materials for cheap, because raw materials are ALWAYS cheap. It is to our advantage for them to get richer, because then they'll be able to buy more stuff from us, and provide more valuable stuff to us in exchange. That's exactly what's happening with China: it's becoming wealthier, and that's making America, its number one trading partner, richer as well. Nobody with a clue wants any countries to remain poor. And they aren't remaining poor because of any conspiracy, or control, from outside. They remain poor because of bad governance and internal social problems.

I agree completely. However, the bad governance is very much the result of unwise policies imposed by the IMF et al. Of course there is no conspiracy. Although there is a lot of hush-hush surrounding negotiations in the WTO (that are often tied to direct or indirect threats involving the IMF), these demands are well known. And there is of course no evil plan to keep poor countries in domination. They only have that effect because of their short-sightedness. And they are short-sighted because our governments prioritise short-term, immediate interests in production of raw materials, to the detriment of industrialisation of these countries.

The IMF can do nothing about these failures.

The IMF can pull its hands off, allowing these countries to fail on their own, or succeed on their own. We could even be of some help, but not being of so much hindrance would be a good start.
 
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I'm really sorry, I have no idea what this means in reference to my comment.

Are you denying that the decision not to invade Iraq as part of Iraq1 was made in part by the President of the United States ?

No, Im pissed he sucked up to them
 
Yes. And if the rich countries would stop production of everything except raw materials, they would no longer be rich.

Irrelevant to the idea of "keeping" raw materials from poor countries cheap.

But the IMF (or rather, the industrial powers, using IMF as a tool) keeps these countries from such development.

No, they don't. Trade enriches every country which engages in it, and the more they trade, the richer they get. The IMF tries to encourage trade.

Corruption will always be rampant in dog-eat-dog societies. It's completely delusional to believe that one day these governments will suddenly become efficient and free of corruption, when the societies are still wretchedly poor.

Your causation is backwards. You didn't read my link, did you? Corruption is the result of failed societies, which in turn leads to poverty for most corrupt countries, but those failures are due to INTRINSIC aspects of those societies, not extrinsic circumstances. Countries without those failings can rise up, despite being poor. Countries with those failings are hopelessly mired in corruption, even when they're rich (Saudi Arabia, for example).

To fight corruption, we have to fight poverty at the same time. This means establishing more advanced industries.

No, actually, it doesn't. Saudi Arabia tried exactly that: they tried to establish a plastics industry (makes sense, they've got the raw materials), they invested heavily in the necessary capital, but the enterprise failed. Why? Because they couldn't turn a profit, because corruption sapped all their efforts. It was not because of lack of money. Money cannot solve the problem of corruption. And throwing money at it (which is exactly what "establishing more advanced industries" really amounts to) generally makes it worse. Aid has never lifted a country out of poverty, but trade has.

Having a foreign investor start a sneaker factory is of little help by the way, as the profits will all leave the country and will not be re-invested.

Wrong. First off, "profits" are not some thing separate and different from income for a corporation. And damned straight a corporation with a sneaker factory will leave some of that income in the country: it's called wages, and foreign factories pay higher wages (with money that came from outside the country into it) than most domestic jobs. And if their factory turns a profit, damned straight they'll invest more in the country: they'll build more factories, or upgrade existing factories to remain competitive.

At any sign of increasing wages, the factory will move to the next poor country.

No, they won't. Not after having invested in the capital of the factory. They might open their next plant in a poorer country (which will then help that poorer country), but they won't close down a factory just because wages rise. In fact, as time goes on, the workers acquire skills, and the factory becomes more efficient with increased investment, their work will become more productive and so the corporation will indeed raise the wages of the workers. The only way the worker's wages can rise too fast for the corporation to be willing to pay is if the general economy of that country improves enough that they could get better jobs elsewhere, at which point the loss of the sneaker factory is of little concern anymore. That should be obvious, and yet for some reason it isn't.

Such capital would typically be of none or very little advantage to the country, however.

You have GOT to be kidding me. It provides the opportunity for jobs at wages higher than the country can otherwise provide. How is that NOT to the country's advantage?

Among the lowest in the world. I gave you three examples. Now it's your turn.

Give me numbers. "Among the lowest" means little.
 
Merko,
I have followed the conversation on free trade between you and Ziggurat a bit.

I think, if you really are interested in a discussion you might consider starting a new thread on it as it as it is only tangentially related to the topic of this thread.

One thing I would note is that you seem to be good at putting forth the rhetoric of the anti-free traders but I am not sure what if anything in particular you would do. For instance, early in the Bush presidency he moved to put in place trade barriers to protect American steel companies. Was this a good thing? Of course it made US industries that depended on steel less competitive in the world market. Should Bush then have put in place government subsidies to help those industries compensate for the fact that they were then paying more for steel than the companies that they competed with in the world market? And once the price of steel went up in the US that means the price of cars would go up produced in the US. Should the government then have put in place trade barriers on incoming cars that were produced with the cheaper non-American steel?

Of course there were some people besides the American steel manufacturers who were going to profit from the trade barriers like the owners of junk yards with thousands of tons of scrap steel on hand. Should the government have put in place a tax to recover some of the windfall profits these companies would make after the government drove the price of steel up?

I suspect you think the above questions are not on target because I didn't mention the exploitation of workers or the need for a living wage or some other wonderful progressive feel good rhetoric. My point, and I fully expect you not to accept it, is that government messing about in the economy often has significant unintended consequences and many if not most of the times progressive rhetoric is just simplistic pablum that ignores the reality of a complex situation.

Just to repeat myself, if you would like to respond to the above or to discuss free trade issues I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread.
 

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