The Edges Of Child Pornography: What Should Be Legal, What Shouldn't?

[EGarrett]

Okay:

A story that's meant to entertain, inform, or enlighten that has children involved in sexual/romantic relationships with other children, or even adults in a pure storytelling/enlightening sense.

Not okay:

A story that's meant to sexually stimulate the viewer. I.E. pornography.

The story showing a child having sex with an adult is fine until they have a "steamy sex scene" in it...the moment it crosses over into something that's meant to sexually stimulate...it becomes Not Okay in my book.

 

[Merko]

Do you think such stories should be illegal?

I don't think it would help to make them illegal. But that doesn't really mean I have to like them. Like I said, I don't know if reading such stories makes a person more or less likely to commit crimes. Maybe it depends on the stories.

I have a feeling that the best way may be to allow these stories, but to try and ensure that they are offered along with helpful information for where people can turn in case they feel that they are getting obsessed with this kind of stories. And of course, to always make it very clear that these accounts are fictional, and that the actions depicted are not acceptable.

 

[pipelineaudio]

You guys have just condemned friday the 13th and nightmare on elm street for sure

 

[steverino]

... try and ensure that they are offered along with helpful information for where people can turn in case they feel that they are getting obsessed with this kind of stories. And of course, to always make it very clear that these accounts are fictional, and that the actions depicted are not acceptable.

My first job was moving furniture for ten bucks cash an hour. The moving van had two bucket seats, but I was new, and had to sit in the folding chair wedged between them. As soon as we got on the road, before 8am, the young driver cracked open his first in a series of beers. He and his pal on my right spit chewing tobacco God-knows-where while cussing out people of color. I was wedged between two “good ol’ boys” with no seat belt or airbag to save my life. Those large screen TV’s are really heavy, besides. That job lasted a week.


WARNING LABELS...YES! Like cigarettes have. Merko. I think you've got it!

Written on the pink g-string panties the 7 year-old girl is wearing it should say, "WARNING": "This article of clothing is in no way meant to sexually arouse the adult male. Nor is it to sexualize the wearer in any way that will burden her with issues when she matures."

 

[Dave1001]

Okay:

A story that's meant to entertain, inform, or enlighten that has children involved in sexual/romantic relationships with other children, or even adults in a pure storytelling/enlightening sense.

Not okay:

A story that's meant to sexually stimulate the viewer. I.E. pornography.

The story showing a child having sex with an adult is fine until they have a "steamy sex scene" in it...the moment it crosses over into something that's meant to sexually stimulate...it becomes Not Okay in my book.

The easy question is okay vs. not okay. The harder question for most is should be legal vs. shouldn't be legal.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

What should be legal to own, what shouldn't, and why?
By child I mean someone under the age of 18. Feel free to make a separate distinction for someone under the age of 16, and under the age of 14.

1. erotic stories depicting child sex, with no illustrations or voices.
2. audio erotic stories depicting child sex, with an adult actor portraying a child's voice.
3. audio erotic stories depicting child sex, with a child actor's voice portraying a child.
4. Cartoons depicting child sex with no voices.
5. Cartoons depicting child sex, voiced by adult actors pretending to be children.
6. Cartoons depicting child sex, voiced by child actors.
7. live action pornography, with adults pretending to be children.
8. live action pornography, with children engaging only in simulated sex.
9. live action pornography, with children actuall having sex.

My own take: everything should be legal except #'s 3, 6, 8, & 9.

I'm also open to rasing the age at which anyone can consent to any of the things in #'s 3, 6, 8, &9 to 30 (and considering that the "adult" age for this purpose), because I think older people have a strong exploitation motivation to use less wise, younger people for sexual gratification. However, I would also envision an exception for someone that got two independent psychiatrists to produce an opinion that they are making mature, informed decision for their voice or image to be used for sexual media. That would hold for people as young as 18.

That erotica involving children is reprehensible is obvious.

SCOTUS* decided that child pornography laws can have penalties harsher than "mere" obscenity laws, and that the first and ninth amendment rights to free speech/freedom of the press and privacy are not as protected. They did this on the basis that obscenity is consensual, but in child pornography there are minors who are victims. Thus, they distinguished between "normal" pornography and child pornography on the basis of underage participants.

So 3, 6, 8 and nine are child pornography and carry the higher penalties and abridged rights. The rest, if they are illegal at all, fall under the obscenity laws. Whether they are illegal depends on local laws. Whether they can be prosecuted depends on privacy and free speech/freedom of the press rights.

*SCOTUS = the Supreme Court Of The United States

 

[Piscivore]

Your categories are insufficient.

1. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with no illustrations.
1b. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with no illustrations.
1c. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with no illustrations.
1d. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, with no illustrations.
1e. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with no illustrations.
1f. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with no illustrations.
1g. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with no illustrations.
1h. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, with no illustrations.

1i. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1j. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1k. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1l. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1m. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1n. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1o. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.
1p. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, with drawn or CG illustrations.

1q. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1r. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1s. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1t. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1u. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1v. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1w. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.
1x. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using only adult actors.

1y. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1z. Written stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1aa. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1bb. Written stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1cc. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1dd. Written stories centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1ee. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.
1ff. Written stories centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, with photo illustrations using minor actors.

2. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2b. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2c. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2d. Audio only readings or performances of not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2e. Audio only readings or performances of centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2f. Audio only readings or performances of centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2g. Audio only readings or performances of centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving only adult actors.
2h. Audio only readings or performances of centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving only adult actors.

3. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3b. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3c. Audio only readings or performances of stories not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3d. Audio only readings or performances of not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3e. Audio only readings or performances of centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3f. Audio only readings or performances of centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3g. Audio only readings or performances of centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
3h. Audio only readings or performances of centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, involving minor actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.

4. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, without sound.
4b. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, without sound.
4c. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, without sound.
4d. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, without sound.
4e. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, without sound.
4f. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly child-child sex, without sound.
4g. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, without sound.
4h. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, without sound.

5. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5b. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5c. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5d. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5e. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5f. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5g. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.
5h. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, voiced only by adult actors.

6. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6b. Animated video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6c. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6d. Animated video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6e. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6f. Animated video centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6g. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.
6h. Animated video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, including minor voice actors participating in scenes with sexual dialogue.

7. Live-action video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7b. Live-action video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7c. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7d. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7e. Live-action video centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7f. Live-action video centered on, but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7g. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.
7h. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, using only adult actors or special effects.

8. Live-action video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minor actors en scene.
8b. Live-action video not centered on, alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex, using minor actors en scene.
8c. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minors en scene, engaging only in simulated sex.
8d. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, using minors en scene, engaging only in simulated sex.
8e. Live-action video centered on, but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minors en scene.
8f. Live-action video centered on, but not explicitly child-child sex, using minors en scene.
8g. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minors en scene, engaging only in simulated sex.
8h. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, using minors en scene, engaging only in simulated sex.


9. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minors performing real sex acts.
9b. Live-action video not centered on, but explicitly depicting child-child sex, using minors performing real sex acts.
9c. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting adult-child sex, using minors performing real sex acts.
9d. Live-action video centered on and explicitly depicting child-child sex, using minors performing real sex acts.

10. Non-narrative or non-contextual drawn or CG illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex.
10b. Non-narrative or non-contextual drawn or CG illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex.
10c. Non-narrative or non-contextual drawn or CG illustrations explicitly depicting adult-child sex.
10d. Non-narrative or non-contextual drawn or CG illustrations explicitly depicting child-child sex.

10e. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex using adult actors.
10f. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex using adult actors.
10g. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting adult-child sex using adult actors.
10h. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting child-child sex using adult actors.

10i. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting adult-child sex including minor actors.
10j. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations alluding to but not explicitly depicting child-child sex including minor actors.
10k. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting adult-child sex including minor actors engaging only in simulated sex.
10l. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting child-child sex including minor actors engaging only in simulated sex.
10m. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting adult-child sex including minor actors performing real sex acts.
10n. Non-narrative or non-contextual photographic illustrations explicitly depicting child-child sex including minor actors performing real sex acts.

I did not feel that there is any useful reason to distinguish between real or simulated sex acts in situations where only adults were involved, so those were omitted.

 

[The Atheist]

Holy crap!

How long did it take to come up with that?

 

[jimtron]

Sorry, with so many freaks and pervs running around, I would have to go with banning all of the above. It's not worth the risk of even suggesting to them that child/adult sex is acceptable.

Even Nabokov's "Lolita"?

eta: I believe that would fall under:

1. erotic stories depicting child sex, with no illustrations or voices.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

It all boils down to one simple question: was a child harmed during the creation of the material? If yes, then it should be illegal. If no, then it should be legal, however repulsive it may be.

My work here is done. You lot have a lovely time defining harm now.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

It all boils down to one simple question: was a child harmed during the creation of the material? If yes, then it should be illegal. If no, then it should be legal, however repulsive it may be.

My work here is done. You lot have a lovely time defining harm now.

What he said.

Except that in addition, harm must be demonstrated with actual evidence. No copouts like "but I just know that voice acting a sex scene will be harmful!", or "We could never gather such evidence because to do so we would have to allow children to voice act sex scenes, and we just know that will be harmful!".

We had a long and acrimonious thread about age of consent laws not too long ago, and the available evidence based on studies of people involved in underage sex showed that consensual sex could not be scientifically linked to any harm even if one or both participants were underage.

(Just to head off one inevitable response, underage pregnancy and STDs cause harm. Feel free to criminalise impregnating or infecting underage people. Sex does not, so criminalising it cannot be justified).

As long as no actual children are coerced or forced into unwanted sexual activities, there is no basis in the available evidence to criminalise the production or possession of erotica involving underage characters.

As I think I have remarked before, laws criminalising the creation or possession of such material are in reality an excuse to lock up people who want to have sex with children. Society as an aggregate wants to lock such people up or kill them, but is constrained by the need to work within a rule of law, so we criminalise any thing we can think of that marks a person as a paedophile even if in and of itself that thing is harmless. These are thought crimes, not crimes of harm to another person.

Does this mean I want sexual predators running around loose? Of course not. I can't support dumb laws that make harmless non-predators into criminals though, even if those laws might sometimes have the happy effect of locking up someone who might actually coerce or force a real person into unwanted sexual acts.

 

[The Atheist]

It all boils down to one simple question: was a child harmed during the creation of the material? If yes, then it should be illegal. If no, then it should be legal, however repulsive it may be.

My work here is done. You lot have a lovely time defining harm now.

On that basis, written stories featuring any kind of child sex is ok, along with pictures of naked children? After all, no children are harmed by having their photo taken, are they?

Animated cartoons of child rape are fine, no kids are harmed during that, either.

Are you serious?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

On that basis, written stories featuring any kind of child sex is ok, along with pictures of naked children? After all, no children are harmed by having their photo taken, are they?

That depends upon whether your definition of harm includes exploitation.

The written material itself, I have no (legal) quarrel against.

Animated cartoons of child rape are fine, no kids are harmed during that, either.

Animated cartoons of child rape should be legal. Whether children should be used to voice said films gets back to exploitation and the definition of harm.

Are you serious?

Yes.

 

[The Atheist]

What he said.

Oh boy, where do I begin to answer such a delightfully put defence of paedophile grooming?

You would have gone down well at Centrepoint commune.

Hell, eight year olds girls can probably say yes to sex if they're properly groomed first - so they say yes when asked if they'd like to have sex. After all, they're not going to be harmed are they?

It's a good christian defence in child-rape cases, too - say that it was consensual. "Hey, she said yes! So she's only 9 or 10, but yes means yes, right?"

Wrong.

I hope you're not a parent, because I'd like to think that you may change your mind if you had kids and I'd really like you to change the way you think.

Regardless of what you see as a good or bad thing, regardless of whether it's biblical claptrap to have these laws, regardless of whether you think it's outrageous mores of the few being foisted onto all, you are wrong.

I've been heartened by the positive response to this and the sexualisation of kids threads and support I'm getting from groups around me that the vast majority of parents feel the same way I do. If you don't like that, or feel it's somehow unfair, unjust or illogical, I can tell you that we, as parents, don't give a flying Tasmanian Devil for your desire to allow child porn. Fortunately, from a legal standpoint - and one which isn't going to be relaxed anytime soon - you are in the minority and the laws of your country and mine both have extremely harsh penalties for breaking those laws. The fact that someone with such a stupidly liberal attitude disagrees with the introduction and enforcement of those laws is music to my ears.

Two types of people could speak against those laws - child molesters and think, childless liberals.

Which one are you?

 

[The Atheist]

That depends upon whether your definition of harm includes exploitation.

The written material itself, I have no (legal) quarrel against.


Animated cartoons of child rape should be legal. Whether children should be used to voice said films gets back to exploitation and the definition of harm.


Yes.

I have to say that I'm extremely disappointed.

I have two questions:

Are you a parent?

Do you think acceptance of your level of child-porn would increase, decrease, or leave unchanged, sexual assaults on children. And why?

So make it three questions. Or answer any two...

 

[Dave1001]

That erotica involving children is reprehensible is obvious.

SCOTUS* decided that child pornography laws can have penalties harsher than "mere" obscenity laws, and that the first and ninth amendment rights to free speech/freedom of the press and privacy are not as protected. They did this on the basis that obscenity is consensual, but in child pornography there are minors who are victims. Thus, they distinguished between "normal" pornography and child pornography on the basis of underage participants.

So 3, 6, 8 and nine are child pornography and carry the higher penalties and abridged rights. The rest, if they are illegal at all, fall under the obscenity laws. Whether they are illegal depends on local laws. Whether they can be prosecuted depends on privacy and free speech/freedom of the press rights.

*SCOTUS = the Supreme Court Of The United States

That's a helpful summary of what the current state of the law is, but I'm interested in discussing what people think the law should be. Do you have an opinion on what you think the law should be?

 

[Dave1001]

Your categories are insufficient.

<googol-snip>

You're right. To make the thread easier, I was assuming everything listed in my OP was 100% erotic material, not part of some larger art-piece.

 

[Dave1001]

What he said.

Except that in addition, harm must be demonstrated with actual evidence. No copouts like "but I just know that voice acting a sex scene will be harmful!", or "We could never gather such evidence because to do so we would have to allow children to voice act sex scenes, and we just know that will be harmful!".

We had a long and acrimonious thread about age of consent laws not too long ago, and the available evidence based on studies of people involved in underage sex showed that consensual sex could not be scientifically linked to any harm even if one or both participants were underage.

(Just to head off one inevitable response, underage pregnancy and STDs cause harm. Feel free to criminalise impregnating or infecting underage people. Sex does not, so criminalising it cannot be justified).

As long as no actual children are coerced or forced into unwanted sexual activities, there is no basis in the available evidence to criminalise the production or possession of erotica involving underage characters.

As I think I have remarked before, laws criminalising the creation or possession of such material are in reality an excuse to lock up people who want to have sex with children. Society as an aggregate wants to lock such people up or kill them, but is constrained by the need to work within a rule of law, so we criminalise any thing we can think of that marks a person as a paedophile even if in and of itself that thing is harmless. These are thought crimes, not crimes of harm to another person.

Does this mean I want sexual predators running around loose? Of course not. I can't support dumb laws that make harmless non-predators into criminals though, even if those laws might sometimes have the happy effect of locking up someone who might actually coerce or force a real person into unwanted sexual acts.

Wow, you're staking out a much more socially difficult position than I have thus far. I remember reading about Bill Maher positively discussing a study that consensual sex between children and adults doesn't harm children. If empiricism does indeed rigorously show that such sex doesn't harm children, then it will be a far edge example of the difficulty in giving empiricism primacy over prejudice in policy-making. I admit I find it hard to believe myself that sexual contact between adults and children isn't harmful-- for normal socialization into American society as much as anything else. But, I do think there's value in listening to and being open to influence from the best of what science can tell us.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I have to say that I'm extremely disappointed.

I have two questions:

Are you a parent?

I had nearly answered this one preemptively, as I figured it would come. I am not a parent.

Do you think acceptance of your level of child-porn would increase, decrease, or leave unchanged, sexual assaults on children. And why?

Honestly, I have no idea. I can imagine arguments for any of the three, but have evidence for none. However, I am not comfortable with the idea that x should be a crime solely because it raises incidence rates of y, which is a crime.

 

[Dave1001]

However, I am not comfortable with the idea that x should be a crime solely because it raises incidence rates of y, which is a crime.

I'm not either, but I do think there has to be some sort of civil liberties slack, attached to the degree to which X, by raising incidence rates of Y, undermines the rule of law and the ability for society to maintain our civil liberties generally. Example: a "kill the federal judges" song so propagandistically effective that it will incite members of the general population to kill federal judges in numbers that makes it impossible for rule of law to be maintained. I'd be open to such a song (that was or had the potential to truly be that effective) being banned.

So far though any example like that I can think of appears to be theoretical, with the possible exceptions of consolidated ownership of media and certain types of industries, and private ownership of weapons of a certain threshhold power (biological, nuclear).