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Iraq: Helping the US

I hope someone geographically closer to you smakcs the living crap out of you then pees in the wounds
So your response to the expression of an opinion is to incite violence? Did you by any chance happen to support Denmark when those cartoons were published?

there is a WORLD of difference between being a colonial slave, with absolutely no rights, and a free man, who is simply indebted
First, we're not talking about "simply indebted" but about "unsustainably heavy indebted".

Second, let's compare situations:
Colony: Your colonial masters tell you to do underpaid work for them and deliver them your produce against a set, low price - or they will send their military/police to force you.
Nowadays: Your creditors tell you that since you're unable to repay your loans and don't have any assets for them to impound you have to do underpaid work for them and deliver them your produce against a set, low price - or they won't grant you an extension.

There is very little practical difference between someone ordering you around through force of arms or because you owe them a debt which you can't possibly repay. The only difference is where their power is derived from, not how it is applied.
 
I don't know about France, but Germany IS actually helping:

All but the last example you post was assistance provided in the past. None is exactly impressive. 420 security troops trained? That's a pittance. It's a token gesture, nothing more.

Don't take it that we do not support the USA when it is needed and justified. Just have a look who is on the ground in Afghanistan.

I'm looking. I'm also looking at the fact that Germany doesn't want to use those troops to fight the Taliban in southern Afghanistan, but only to police more peaceful regions. In other words, they'll contribute troops, but they have little interest in doing any actual fighting. You'll have to forgive me if I don't swoon from witnessing Germany's generosity and courage.
 
Wether heavily indebted or formally colonised, the endresults are the same: cheap raw materials and cheap, uneducated labor.

You've still got it wrong. First, let's talk about the cheap labor part. Where has cheap labor been "exploited" most dramatically by western nations to produce goods? Not in former colonies, not in countries heavily in debt, but in China. Why? Because labor alone is never enough. It must be productive labor, and for that, you need things like stable governance, reliable laws, decent infrastructure. China figured out how to provide those things. So have many other Asian countries. African countries, by contrast, have not. The basket cases are not being exploited for cheap labor, because they're not even useful for cheap labor. It would be an improvement for them if they were "exploited" for cheap labor. We are not using them for cheap labor, and so nothing about our policies can possibly be designed to try to maintain their poverty in order to exploit their cheap labor.

Now, on to raw materials. Yes, we give out loans to ensure access to cheap raw materials. But I suspect you're making a fundamental mistake: the choice is not between getting those raw materials from a given third-world country for cheap and getting them for more expensive prices, the real choice is between getting those raw materials from a country for cheap or not getting them from that country at all. And that's true even if the country becomes a rich country, and even if the buyer is poorer than the seller (witness, for example, iron ore sold from Australia to China). Raw materials will ALWAYS be cheap, because raw materials will always represent a small part of the value of almost any product. The real money will always be in processing raw materials.

The basket case countries are not poor because they're in debt (experience with debt forgiveness should have proven that rather conclusively). They're poor because they have bad governance, which prevents any effective investment and makes it impossible for them to offer anything of value to the world at large other than cheap raw materials (which they can offer despite not being able to function themselves). Countries which can provide cheap labor to the outside world IMPROVE their lot.
 
First, let's talk about the cheap labor part. Where has cheap labor been "exploited" most dramatically by western nations to produce goods? Not in former colonies, not in countries heavily in debt, but in China.
That's not really true. The Chinese economy is far more protectionist compared to heavily indebted countries. Because creditors don't allow the latter to use protectionism. But the result is that China has developed and protected fledgling industries. Unlike heavily indebted nations, where cheap labor profits multinationals instead of being reinvested in the local economy, China's protectionism allows the country to profit as well.
So cheap Chinese labor is exploited mostly by China, instead of western nations.

The basket cases are not being exploited for cheap labor, because they're not even useful for cheap labor.
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/3961.html
Last month, we learned that horrific sweatshops in Jordan were making garments for retailers like Wal-Mart. It turned out that the workers in those sweatshops were not Jordanian but had been flown in from lower-wage countries like Bangladesh and China.

The sweatshops were in Jordan for only one reason: to earn duty-free entry to our market under the United States-Jordan trade deal.

These sweatshops did nothing for the Jordanian people, nor for the Bangladeshi and Chinese workers, who were forced to work 20-hour shifts, were frequently beaten and cheated even out of their miserable wages.

The only ones who benefited were the foreign sweatshop owners and United States retailers.

Does Bangladesh qualify as a basket case? I doubt this is a unique example. And heavily indebted countries aren't allowed by their creditors to create/enforce labor laws. So you're demonstrably wrong.

Yes, we give out loans to ensure access to cheap raw materials. But I suspect you're making a fundamental mistake: the choice is not between getting those raw materials from a given third-world country for cheap and getting them for more expensive prices, the real choice is between getting those raw materials from a country for cheap or not getting them from that country at all.
Edited to add/remove:
I missed a point here. What matters is where the profits from these raw materials go. Without labor protection and in a fully liberalised market the undeveloped country receives only subsistance wages for its workers, while the profits are for the foreign investors in multinational firms. Instead of being invested in the local economy, by the locals themselves.

The basket case countries are not poor because they're in debt (experience with debt forgiveness should have proven that rather conclusively). They're poor because they have bad governance
The countries that made the most remarkable economic recoveries during the last 60 years - western Europe, China, South Korea and Japan - all used extensive protectionism in a various ways to recover, with strict government controls.
It's funny we have so many theories on why protectionism is a bad thing, when practically all rich countries employed it, at one time or another. Unlike heavily indebted countries, which aren't allowed to by their creditors.

Of course good governance is a necessity as well, but that is made much more difficult when the national government has to share power with foreign creditors who have different interests.
 
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That's not really true. The Chinese economy is far more protectionist compared to heavily indebted countries. Because creditors don't allow the latter to use protectionism. But the result is that China has developed and protected fledgling industries. Unlike heavily indebted nations, where cheap labor profits multinationals instead of being reinvested in the local economy, China's protectionism allows the country to profit as well.
So cheap Chinese labor is exploited mostly by China, instead of western nations.

Tell that to wallmart. But you dodged the central point: basket case countries don't HAVE their labor exploited by anyone, because their labor is worthless.

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/3961.html
Last month, we learned that horrific sweatshops in Jordan were making garments for retailers like Wal-Mart. It turned out that the workers in those sweatshops were not Jordanian but had been flown in from lower-wage countries like Bangladesh and China.

The sweatshops were in Jordan for only one reason: to earn duty-free entry to our market under the United States-Jordan trade deal.


In other words, it is our trade barriers, NOT their home countries debts, which led to this particular unfortunate situation.

Does Bangladesh qualify as a basket case?

Yes, it does. China does not.

And heavily indebted countries aren't allowed by their creditors to create/enforce labor laws.

Please provide some detailed information on this. I am skeptical, but open to being informed further.

So you're demonstrably wrong.

How? Your story makes no mention of the role of debt, only of trade barriers (which I think IS a way that developed economies hurt developing economies, though they do it for domestic reasons, not in order to hurt those economies). Furthermore, the workers in question are subject to particular abuse because they do not speak the language and cannot flee. So this sweatshop is actually very atypical of the class of manufacturing plants usually labelled with that term. "Sweatshops" which employ locals (the norm) can only get employees to work for them because the available alternatives are actually WORSE. If they weren't, the workers would simply leave. They are, therefore, a step up. And as the economies where they are improve, education levels improve, infrastructure improves, their labor becomes more valuable, and working conditions improve over time. Which is exactly what's going on in China.

The countries that made the most remarkable economic recoveries during the last 60 years - western Europe, China, South Korea and Japan - all used extensive protectionism in a various ways to recover, with strict government controls.

It was precisely China's relaxation of many of those controls which led to its economic boom, and it will have to continue to relax them in order to continue its stellar growth. Japan was essentially a top-ranking country to begin with, and only had to recover from the destruction of infrastructure (an infinitely easier problem than trying to build functioning social capital out of disfunction). I don't know too much about South Korea, but I seriously doubt its protectionism helped. Protectionism only ever helps a small subset of the population (trivia for you: import tarriffs have the same net effect as export tarriffs, but nobody practices the latter because it never helps a domestic special interest group), and extensive protectionism is in fact practiced by many basket case countries. Cameroon, for example, has average import tarriffs of 61% (source: "The Undercover Economist").

It's funny we have so many theories on why protectionism is a bad thing, when practically all rich countries employed it, at one time or another.

That protectionism is quite modest (tarrifs in the US average 2.8 percent, and 2.7 percent for the EU), which means that their impact on those countries is small so the harm they do is not generally obvious (in contrast, as a matter of fact, to most basket case countries like Cameroon which have high trade barriers). And the fact that rich countries practice protectionism to SOME degree provides NO information as to whether they're helpful. The evidence is to the contrary.

Of course good governance is a necessity as well,

It's not just A necessity, it is THE necessity. Protectionism has never helped to develop an economy.
 
.... You'll have to forgive me if I don't swoon from witnessing Germany's generosity and courage.
Meh. At the time the USA was preparing to invade Iraq in the Iraq2 war, every bit of diplomatic pressure was put on France and Germany to go along with it -- up to Rumsfeld and other Bush govt members declaring the want to punish both countries by various means.

Neither Germany nor France agreed that there was a valid mandate or necessity to invade Iraq. The USA cabinet trumpeted loudly that it could and would go it alone, witjh Rumseld even disparaging the British contributions to Iraq2. The USA govt acted like a bully in the supreme arrogance that no help was necessary, and that all foreigners could be disparaged and ignored.

And I have seen statements from you personally as well as others which count as rank bigotry about Europeans, as well as supremacism about the USA.

So guess what?
Suck it up.

The USA govt failed in Iraq2 because of the incompetent decisions and planning of the Bush govt, as well as the totally unnecessary alienation of allies.

So I hope to hell you're at least a tax-payer; I personally would love to see you put your money where your mouth is, and the Bush govt and its supporters like you, who find it otherwise so amusing to constantly let loose bigoted comments on "Europeans", can bloody well pay for your arrogance and incompetence, and pay for it all by yourselves. After all, it's your debt, no-one else's.
 
I (an American) appreciated what DD expressed about the possibility of it being a good thing if Europe helped more with Iraq. Obviously Iraq has become a major disaster for the US and for the Iraqis and has the potential to spill over and become a major disaster for the rest of the region and the world.

None the less, I don't think this is the time that Europe should supply substantial assistance with Iraq.

The Iraqi effort is almost entirely driven by the US right now. It is not clear to me that even the UK has much say. And the US effort despite the last election is still driven mostly by Bushco.

If you believe in a hawkish approach to the middle east then this is a good thing. I think it is a very bad thing. Bushco has led Iraq and the US into a situation bordering on chaos. At the present time it appears that Bushco intends no significant change in course. These are military oriented people (largely without actual military experience) who have fantasies of easy victories and regardless of circumstances continue to believe that American military messing about in the middle east is a good thing.

It is now reported that Bushco was pushing Israel to invade Syria during the Lebanon war. They have been sabre rattling over an Iran invasion for two years. Assisting this administration with their middle east adventures is tantamount to supporting the middle east philosophies of this administration.

Of course no one can know for certain that their ideas are wrong. Maybe their interventionist policies will in the end prevent major world disasters. I think the opposite is probably the case. But what I see as even more dangerous is that regardless of the results there is no reassessment of their general strategy. It now appears that any real objective review of the situation and any attempt to modify strategy will not take place while Bushco is in place. Fortunately, from my point of view, it appears that the new congress will constrain some of Bushco's wildest ideas but any new approach to the middle east is going to require a new administration with new diplomatic approaches, a more even handed approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict and no biases to maintain the course to prevent admissions of failed policies.

At the present time there is nothing that Europe can do about this and it is hard for me to see how European assistance to Bushco is going to do anything but maintain the disastrously flawed policies of what is certainly the worst American presidency of my life.
 
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The USA govt failed in Iraq2 because of the incompetent decisions and planning of the Bush govt, as well as the totally unnecessary alienation of allies.
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"Failed" is a little loose isnt it? Last time I checked, Saddam Hussein was not in power
 
"Failed" is a little loose isnt it? Last time I checked, Saddam Hussein was not in power
I'm sorry, but in my very humble opinion, when the situation is such that two-thirds of American armed forces have died after the war was declared as won, and they're still dying, and Iraqi citizens are dying in thousands simply because no security can be established in Iraq following the invasion, despite well over a 100,000 American troops in Iraq plus a large contingent of Brit troops, and the insurgency and terrorism shows no signs of letting up, with attacks in Iraqi only now reaching their peak, where an average of 959 attacks a week between 12 August and 10 November, 2006, have happened, and no less than 12,000 Iraqi policemen have died since the invasion, occupation and setting up of the new police forces in Iraq, while the Bush govt insists it still has goals to pursue in Iraq, yet the new Defence sec acknowledges the war is not being won, and those goals are not being accomplished.....
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then the word "failure" seems to be the most precise. If somewhat of an understatement.
 
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At the present time there is nothing that Europe can do about this and it is hard for me to see how European assistance to Bushco is going to do anything but maintain the disastrously flawed policies of what is certainly the worst American presidency of my life.
Bingo! At this time even if "Europe" suddenly decided to accept American orders and pour troops and money into Iraq, it wouldn't help; the situation has become totally FUBARed by the original occupation plans decided on by Rumsfeld among others.

Oh, and it was Rumsfeld who made very clear that the USA did not need assistance; oh, before he later changed his mind and went begging around western Europe for troops and money, and failed there too.

So, folks, pride may come before a fall, but immense needlessly rude arrogance comes before a huge and nasty pratfall. Maybe the hell some might learn some simple polite manners; I well know that apparently many whether here or in the Bush govt don't believe foreigners deserve simple good manners, but then, you're finally learning just why behaving like an idiotic and loud lout may be bad for you in the end.
 
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...It was meant to be an indication that europe might not stay peaceful. It is a real ethnic conflict but one that most people don't think about. And it would have to be a civil war because macedonia isn't stupid enough to go to war with greece.
I will be blunt, Geni; you have offered not one single bit of evidence for your claim, despite being challenged twice. And frankly I regard your claim that there will be an upcoming civil war in Greece as right out there with claiming that the Moon is made of green cheese, or that big green Ickean lizards rule the Earth through a secret cabal.

Cheers.
 
I will be blunt, Geni; you have offered not one single bit of evidence for your claim, despite being challenged twice.

You haven't noticed the surge in macedonian nationalism? never a good sign in that area.

And frankly I regard your claim that there will be an upcoming civil war in Greece as right out there with claiming that the Moon is made of green cheese, or that big green Ickean lizards rule the Earth through a secret cabal.

I can prove that the latter two are not the case. The former is mearly rather unlikely.

If you want more likely european conflicts there is always transnistria.

Terroism has a kinda bad press right now but if that changes don't be suprised if NI, the Basque areas and Corsica heat up again (although in the case of Corsica not very much).
 
You haven't noticed the surge in macedonian nationalism? never a good sign in that area.
There is NO SIGN AT ALL OF ANY UPCOMING CIVIL WAR IN GREECE.
Let me know if you do not grasp my meaning, and I will try to be clearer.
If you want more likely european conflicts there is always transnistria.
Bugger a duck, I can really see that turning into a war, NOT. :boggled:

Any more of this and I am going to look around on the net for Ickean green lizard ruler graphics to reply to you with.
 
There is NO SIGN AT ALL OF ANY UPCOMING CIVIL WAR IN GREECE.
Let me know if you do not grasp my meaning, and I will try to be clearer.

Why do you think Greece is so touchty about Macedonian names?

Bugger a duck, I can really see that turning into a war, NOT. :boggled:

Umm it is a war no peace treaty has been signed so still in ceasefire mode. With the current goverment in Transnistria peace is going to be tricky and the current stalemate ain't stable long term. Russia might be able to get a peaceful solution but they ate not doing great with regards to Abkhazia.

Any more of this and I am going to look around on the net for Ickean green lizard ruler graphics to reply to you with.

Well go nicely with your rose tinted specticals.
 
Tell that to wallmart. But you dodged the central point: basket case countries don't HAVE their labor exploited by anyone, because their labor is worthless.

Nonsense. It's used to provide cheap raw materials.

But it is true that there's a big difference between today and the old colonialism. It's better today, far better. And also, these countries are far more efficient at producing raw materials, because they have at least a little bit of freedom.

I strongly believe that with even more freedom, we'd have even more use of them though. But short-sighted interests want to keep these countries as cheap providers of raw materials (and fear their competition for more advanced products).

In other words, it is our trade barriers, NOT their home countries debts, which led to this particular unfortunate situation.

Nah. The poorest countries are probably those that have the least trade barriers. I don't know of one single developed country that did not use trade barriers during its industrialisation. Could you name one?

Of course, trade barriers by itself does not guarantee development. But it seems to be pretty much a necessary condition.

How? Your story makes no mention of the role of debt, only of trade barriers (which I think IS a way that developed economies hurt developing economies, though they do it for domestic reasons, not in order to hurt those economies).

Of course the aim is not to hurt these countries, it's just the outcome.

"Sweatshops" which employ locals (the norm) can only get employees to work for them because the available alternatives are actually WORSE.
Most escaped slaves returned "voluntarily" too, because it was damned hard to survive in any other way. I don't believe in the "epsilon improvement" doctrine.

And as the economies where they are improve, education levels improve, infrastructure improves, their labor becomes more valuable, and working conditions improve over time. Which is exactly what's going on in China.
Sure. But this is also because they had a concerted plan to actually build a competitive industry offering something more advanced than fruit cases. And to do this, they first needed to sell those products at home, because, let's face it, the first car model or game console you produce is not likely to take the world by storm. In fact, China isn't there quite yet in either of these two areas - but they are working on it, and their trade barriers in these areas is what allows them to keep trying.

It was precisely China's relaxation of many of those controls which led to its economic boom, and it will have to continue to relax them in order to continue its stellar growth.

No, and yes. First they used controls to develop a competitive industry. When their product could compete in the global market, they reduced barriers of trade. But only in those areas where they felt that they could compete. This will no doubt continue. Just lowering trade barriers would have been fatal. It has been tried so many times, it never worked.

Japan was essentially a top-ranking country to begin with, and only had to recover from the destruction of infrastructure (an infinitely easier problem than trying to build functioning social capital out of disfunction).

It was hardly top-ranking. It was that not long ago that "japanese" was a synonym for "cheap, low quality". They used their barriers of trade too, and it served them well.

I don't know too much about South Korea, but I seriously doubt its protectionism helped.

It did. You think the first generation of Korean cars would have done well on the world market? You think it would have done well on the Korean market, if foreign cars had been allowed to compete equally? Their industry would have died in infancy.

Protectionism only ever helps a small subset of the population (trivia for you: import tarriffs have the same net effect as export tarriffs, but nobody practices the latter because it never helps a domestic special interest group), and extensive protectionism is in fact practiced by many basket case countries. Cameroon, for example, has average import tarriffs of 61% (source: "The Undercover Economist").

Nah. Import tariffs protect the industry. While that is no doubt bad "in the long run" (but as Keynes remarked, in the long run we're all dead), there's not much long run to consider if your industry doesn't even take off to begin with.

Export tariffs would just be silly. Of course, if everybody applied them, you would be correct. But that's not how it works. A country wisely applies import tariffs on the kinds of goods that it wants to produce itself, but cannot yet compete with on the global market. It's only good as a temporary measure though (temporary as in decades, but still).
 
then the word "failure" seems to be the most precise. If somewhat of an understatement.

I dont agree

Just like last time, we won, then when it came to winning the peace, last time all the euroweenies told us to leave, which is exactly why we are there again, but I say hell, this time, lets just leave, and let the euroweenies clean it up
 
Neither Germany nor France agreed that there was a valid mandate or necessity to invade Iraq. TThe USA govt failed in Iraq2 because of the incompetent decisions and planning of the Bush govt, as well as the totally unnecessary alienation of allies.

Goodness me! Another glorious example of Gurdie kicking the US in the balls and then retreating into his smug little rat hole. France, Russia, George (cough) Galloway, profited with the son of Kofi Annan from food-for-oil keeping Hussain fluid. And, as pipelineaudio points out, Hussein is out, as are, I might add, Uday and Qusay, the next in line, those sociopaths who would attend a friend's wedding, then during the dancing, kill the groom, rape the bride, and leave.

The death toll is terrible, yes, and terrible too is the reality that 60 Americans a day lose their lives to drunk-driving related accidents. Where is the outrage?
 
Goodness me! Another glorious example of Gurdie kicking the US in the balls and then retreating into his smug little rat hole. France, Russia, George (cough) Galloway, profited with the son of Kofi Annan from food-for-oil keeping Hussain fluid.

Sorry.. but: "The report also found that individuals and companies in the United States accounted for 52% of all oil-voucher kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme#Alleged_US_corporate_complicity

There's no doubt European companies were deeply involved in this, but it can't be used to explain the differences in positions between the US and Europe.

Also, it should be quite clear that the little European support that ever existed in Europe came from elites, while the opposition was always extremely strong on the grass-roots level. The UK, Italy and Spain, just to name a few, had governments that supported the war despite a completely massive public opinion against it in their own countries. Our new Swedish foreign minister, Carl Bildt, also supported the war. He's had his own oil interests in Sudan, though.. which may explain why our new government hasn't been taking the tough stances on that issue that they criticised our previous goverment for not taking.


Edit: After investigating it a bit on the net, I'm also rather doubtful about the allegations against Galloway. It seems to me like it's more likely to be an attempt to smear him. The 'evidence' seems very flaky, and also puts him personally in a position of an oil trader, which he denies ever having been. If he had really done this personally, as the so-called 'evidence' claims, it seems weird how there would be no traces of this activity revealed. It's not like the British press aren't zealously trying to fry Galloway..
 
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Yes, I was against the US invading Iraq (for untold reasons already discussed here).

Yes, the Bush Admisinstration is characterized by idiocy and extreme arrogance and they deserve to be deeply humiliated.

Etc, etc..

Still, it seems to me that a humiliation of the US on the order of the looming Iraq fiasco, is not in any democratic society's deepest interest.

So, I think it is time for all democracies worldwide to forgive and look at the greater perspective. Bury the war-hatchet with the US and help them out. Greater things than the current US Administration's idiocy and arrogance are at stake here, I think.

Of course, we are talking about politics here. So, would anyone know of a way to get the Bush Administration to make a (huge!) jesture of conciliation with Germany, France, Japan, Norway, etc, etc?
A magnanimous sentiment on your part, DD. I'm not sure there should be any conciliation with Germany and France over Iraq, since they tried to trip us at the starting gate.
There were over 40 countries involved at the start of this and it didn't make much difference. Iraq is a tough nut to crack. Iraqis have no tools to know what to do with a democracy. They are used to being bullied by Saddam or manipulated by mullahs. I think we have two choices, one of which is to stick it out for the long haul until some form of stable government takes root. The other choice is to leave and let the cancer grow unchecked.
Perhaps Bush and company are not alone in their arrogance. After all, what kind of arrogance is it to ignore the plight of millions for the sake of the dislike of one?
Shall we leave Iraq? Al Qaeda has granted us safe passage. Al Qaeda must want it pretty badly, since not too long ago any of us were to be killed at any cost.
 

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