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Loose Change - Part IV

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SezMe said:
I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?
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Will a portion of a video be ok? look at the top center of 7. This was posted in the WTC7 Extensive South Side Damage Evidence thread started by CloudshipsRule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51FIPMlrFf4
 
SezMe said:
I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?
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http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

Page 24 has an excellent shot of the 18 storey gash in the SW corner.
 
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SezMe said:
I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?
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Others will provide pics, I'm sure, but I will just point out that there is something odd about the comment that "I can't come up with any good pics of the damage because it is obscured by all the smoke pouring out of the building."

Where does the smoke come from, smoke bombs? Not quite....
 
Fellow skeptics,

Please help!

I'm over at the Internet Infidels board. A poster questioned NIST's explanation of the Twin Tower collapses.

So in response, I posted this...
Sultanist said:
And here's a good explanation of how and why the towers collapsed.
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm
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Following that, another poster replied with this post...

psikeyhacker said:
Where does it provide the distribution of mass within the building? Just about every place that provides a specification says there were 100,000 tons of steel in each tower. How was this distributed among the 117 floors if you include the 7 basements. The concrete is a whole different story since NIST doesn't provide a number and various sites give different numbers. I have seen figures from 25,000 tons to more than 600,000 tons.

So how much mass was below the points of impact? How much steel had to get how hot in 56 minutes for WTC2 and 102 minutes for WTC1 and why isn't this information readily available for a building constructed before the moon landing? The firemen climbed to the 78th floor of the south tower and reported two isolated pockets of fire. There is a picture of a woman standing in the opening where the planes went in before the north tower collapsed so how was it hot enough to weaken steel?
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All that starts at the bottom of the first page of this thread...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=193120

I told this gentleman JREF is the place to go to get him his answers.
Would you be so kind as to address his concerns.
I'm linking him to your thread so he will be reading what you say.

Sultanist

[edit]p.s. the thread starter's initial post (the OP) in that thread (which is Killtown's interview of the EMT) also needs debunking. So please feel free. Anything you post here I will repost over there.
 
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Start off by pointing out that there was actually 200,000 tons of steel in each tower, not 100,000 as he claims.

http://www.google.com/search?client...n&q=WTC+200,000+tons&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Then you should note that NIST themselves actually state that only light fire activity was observed on the 78th floor, which is exactly the floor Orio J Palmer (The firefighter) was reporting from. The NIST fire analysis actually has graphs that show 2 isolated pockets of fire.

The fact here is that just because there were 2 isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor that could be taken down with 2 lines, doesn't mean that the fires were exclusive to that floor.

The fires were at their worst around the 83rd and 84th floors. Not the 78th.

There's so much more that could be delved into with these topics. Tell him to come and post his concerns here and we'll address them.
 
The Doc said:
Start off by pointing out that there was actually 200,000 tons of steel in each tower, not 100,000 as he claims.

http://www.google.com/search?client...n&q=WTC+200,000+tons&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Then you should note that NIST themselves actually state that only light fire activity was observed on the 78th floor, which is exactly the floor Orio J Palmer (The firefighter) was reporting from. The NIST fire analysis actually has graphs that show 2 isolated pockets of fire.

The fact here is that just because there were 2 isolated pockets of fire on the 78th floor that could be taken down with 2 lines, doesn't mean that the fires were exclusive to that floor.

The fires were at their worst around the 83rd and 84th floors. Not the 78th.

There's so much more that could be delved into with these topics. Tell him to come and post his concerns here and we'll address them.
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Doc dude,
You are aware that there never was going to be anything other than a rescue effort. There wasn't any water supply to speak of. That is what I don't really follow about all these small fire claims. I mean a match can burn a wooden home (even a three story one - LOOK NO E) to the ground if the fires are unfought.
 
~enigma~ said:
Doc dude,
You are aware that there never was going to be anything other than a rescue effort. There wasn't any water supply to speak of. That is what I don't really follow about all these small fire claims. I mean a match can burn a wooden home (even a three story one - LOOK NO E) to the ground if the fires are unfought.
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Yeah I know that. But in the hypothetical situation that water and lines were available to fight the fire - it would have been much, much more than 2 lines for 2 pockets of fire on 1 floor.

I see what you are saying though.
 
The Doc said:
Yeah I know that. But in the hypothetical situation that water and lines were available to fight the fire - it would have been much, much more than 2 lines for 2 pockets of fire on 1 floor.

I see what you are saying though.
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Anybody want to do a quick calculation on the water pressure needed to run just one line up 78 floors and still have enough pressure left to fight a fire? I mean woologic is really funny...
 
The figure of 100,000 tons of steel per tower is approximately correct.
 
The Doc said:
I can imagine it would be huge.
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Yeah but an exact number would be a great way to shut the woowoos up so they cant' argue that claim. Baseless really since I doubt that any fire trucks in NYC would be able to pump water almost 1000 feet and retain enough pressure to effectively fight anything bigger than a single match.
 
One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.
 
~enigma~ said:
Have you heard any 'estimate' of what the PSI required to run one line up 78 storys to fight a fire would be?
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Time to pull out the back of the envelope again.

Density of liquid water is approx 1000 kg / m^3.
WTC height is 1,368 ft.

So, the mass of a column of water 78 WTC stories high is

M =~ (1368 ft / 110 stories) * 78 stories * (1000 kg / m^3)
M =~ 295667 kg / m^2

Which puts a pressure of

P =~ 651834 lbs * (2.54 / 100)^2
P =~ 420 lbs / in^2

at the bottom.

So, a water pump would have to have an output pressure of 420 PSI just to "hold up" a static column of water that tall.

I haven't been able to google any minimum pressure@flow rate numbers for effective firefighting, but you'd have to have at least that much pressure at that flow rate left after you account for flow resistance through ~1000 ft of pipes and hoses.

I'm not up on my fluid dynamics, but just going just from that 420 PSI number, and google-assisted guestimating of 1000's of GPM, I'm pretty confident that the NYFD doesn't have any mobile (in the sense that a firetruck is mobile) pumps capable of pushing enough water fast enough from the ground floor to put out more than small, isolated fires.

ETA: Or instead of spending half an hour researching, writing, double-checking and editing, I could just wait for Gravy to consult his "Reference Binder of Doom" (+5 to hit CT'ers) :D :blush:
 
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Gravy said:
One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.
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I read that the hose carried by each fireman was a 30 foot length and the intention behind that was to knock aside fire to allow egress to those being rescued. All i know is the claim that there could have been firefighting done is in itself ludicrous.
 
Mr.D said:
Time to pull out the back of the envelope again.


So, a water pump would have to have an output pressure of 420 PSI just to "hold up" a static column of water that tall.

I haven't been able to google any minimum pressure@flow rate numbers for effective firefighting, but you'd have to have at least that much pressure at that flow rate left after you account for flow resistance through ~1000 ft of pipes and hoses.

I'm not up on my fluid dynamics, but just going just from that 420 PSI number, and google-assisted guestimating of 1000's of GPM, I'm pretty confident that the NYFD doesn't have any mobile (in the sense that a firetruck is mobile) pumps capable of pushing enough water fast enough from the ground floor to put out more than small, isolated fires.

ETA: Or instead of spending half an hour researching, writing, double-checking and editing, I could just wait for Gravy to consult his "Reference Binder of Doom" (+5 to hit CT'ers) :D :blush:
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Thank you....now can we tatoo this on the forehead of the next woo that makes the idiot isolated fire claim?
 
~enigma~ said:
Thank you....now can we tatoo this on the forehead of the next woo that makes the idiot isolated fire claim?
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I dunno. Gravy's binder probably has way too many pages to tattoo on a forehead.
 
Gravy said:
One FDNY high pressure pumper truck, with an output of 500 gpm at 700 psi, was in theory capable of supplying the standpipe system in one tower, if somehow the gravity tanks and manual firefighting pumps couldn't supply water to the needed floors but the standpipe system below was intact. That's not a great deal of water, though.

I wouldn't want to speculate on what pressure would be needed for a hose run of that length (winding around the stairs). I don't know if hoses are built to take such pressure even if such a run was possible. I know some standard fire hoses are tested for a working pressure of 400 psi (burst pressure would be much higher), but I don't know what the FDNY standard was. Special high-pressure hoses are used to connect high-pressure pumpers to standpipes, but those aren't the type of hoses carried as rollups.
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I doubt that there is a fire engine capable of delivering 700 psi at any flow. Most stationary fire pumps deliver between 1,000 - 1,500 gpm at 100 - 150 psi. I would imagine that fire engines might have a 2,000 gpm at 175 psi or something around that, but I doubt it would approach 420 psi (I areee with Mr. D's calcs), much less 700 psi. Sorry, my google-fu is weak or I'd give you a cite on this claim.

Anyhow, a fire on the 78th floor could not have been fought with hose lines laid from the fire engines at street level, IMHO. Either a gravity fed system and/or a standpipe with booster pumps would have been required.

Does anyone know if those systems were disabled by the inital crash?
 
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