WTC questions never asked, never mind answered

westprog

Philosopher
westprog
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The closest thing to the WTC disaster depicted in a film was The Towering Inferno - one of the leading 1970's disaster films. There were two major plot elements. Firstly, people were rescued from the top of the building by helicopter. Secondly, the water tanks at the top of the building were deliberately burst to put out the flames.

I'd be interested to know if either of these were realistic possibilities for 911. I suspect that there are good reasons why neither was attempted, but I'd like to hear what they are.

I note that nonsense about free fall and energy beam weapons from space has prevented the simple questions from being asked.
 
1. That would be the top of the building badly affected by smoke and updrafts from the fire, presumably?

2. Well I've no idea where the water tanks were but rest assured that the intact upper floor plates would simply have pushed any water outwards long before they reached the affected areas.
 
westprog said:
The closest thing to the WTC disaster depicted in a film was The Towering Inferno - one of the leading 1970's disaster films. There were two major plot elements. Firstly, people were rescued from the top of the building by helicopter. Secondly, the water tanks at the top of the building were deliberately burst to put out the flames.

I'd be interested to know if either of these were realistic possibilities for 911. I suspect that there are good reasons why neither was attempted, but I'd like to hear what they are.
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The water tank thing is interesting. Were there water tanks at the top of the WTC?

As for the roof top rescues... I can answer that.

In 1993, with the bombing, many people were rescued from the roof by helicopter. However on 9/11 there were two issues.

One was the doors to the roof were locked, and couldn't be opened. I believe at WTC1 someone with access was there, but he had to have direct communication with command in order to actually get an unlock, and given the disaster that was unfolding he couldn't get through.

However in any event it would have been useless.

The NYPD Aviation unit helicopter could not even hover above the building as the heat coming off the towers was so severe it was over-heating the engine of the aircraft. They ruled out a roof top landing within a short space of time. And as time progressed it only got hotter.

-Gumboot
 
There were huge water tanks at the top. I'm sure I heard each tower had 180,000 gallons.

It's surprising that there was still fires after the collapse. The burning debris fell 80 stories and all that water fell on it
 
Architect said:
2. Well I've no idea where the water tanks were but rest assured that the intact upper floor plates would simply have pushed any water outwards long before they reached the affected areas.
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gumboot said:
As for the roof top rescues... I can answer that.

In 1993, with the bombing, many people were rescued from the roof by helicopter. However on 9/11 there were two issues.

One was the doors to the roof were locked, and couldn't be opened. I believe at WTC1 someone with access was there, but he had to have direct communication with command in order to actually get an unlock, and given the disaster that was unfolding he couldn't get through.

However in any event it would have been useless.

The NYPD Aviation unit helicopter could not even hover above the building as the heat coming off the towers was so severe it was over-heating the engine of the aircraft. They ruled out a roof top landing within a short space of time. And as time progressed it only got hotter.

-Gumboot
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Those are the answers I was looking for. I have a terrible feeling that I've seeded some more conspiracy theories now.
 
Wizard said:
There were huge water tanks at the top. I'm sure I heard each tower had 180,000 gallons.

It's surprising that there was still fires after the collapse. The burning debris fell 80 stories and all that water fell on it
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Wiz

Unsubstantiated. Find out how big they were, what they typically held (this will be less than capacity), how much would have escaped through ruptered pipes and the like pre-collapse, work out how they fitted into the collapse patterns, the extent of fires post-collapse, and THEN tell us whether they should have put the fire out.

You do know that coal bings are exposed to the elements 365 days a year and still burn under the surface, don't you?
 
Architect said:
Wiz

Unsubstantiated. Find out how big they were, what they typically held (this will be less than capacity), how much would have escaped through ruptered pipes and the like pre-collapse, work out how they fitted into the collapse patterns, the extent of fires post-collapse, and THEN tell us whether they should have put the fire out.

You do know that coal bings are exposed to the elements 365 days a year and still burn under the surface, don't you?
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Architect find out yourself. Oh and get a life
 
westprog said:
Those are the answers I was looking for. I have a terrible feeling that I've seeded some more conspiracy theories now.
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For what its worth survivors and non survivors inside the towers reported a lot of water. One of the survivors from the 91st floor of WTC1 (highest floor anyone survived from) went to investigate one of the stairwells, slipped because of the stream of water running down the stairs, and was carried down several floors by the torrent.

The NIST hypothesis, I believe, is that the aircraft impacts destroyed a lot of water pipes etc. for the fire fighting system so all that water was draining out of the tanks throughout the duration of the fire.

Also bear in mind, before anyone could blow the tanks and put out the fire that way, they had to reach them. The closest to the impact zone that any firemen got was the 78th floor of WTC2, and that was 9 minutes before the building collapsed. Given that only 2 people escaped from inside or above the impact zone in WTC2, and no one from inside or above the impact zone of WTC1, I think it's safe to assume there's no way anyone could have got past the impact floors to reach the water tanks.

-Gumboot
 
Wizard said:
Architect find out yourself. Oh and get a life
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Hey, you whine about how people treat you, and you do this? He's injured, and home at the moment. You put forth the notion that the water would have put out the fires upon collapse, not him. Do the work, or don't make absurd claims.
 
Re: Water Tanks.

While people here are actually putting thought into this, and I think it is interesting, I can't help but think that you're spending *way* too much time on it.

It was a movie. It worked in a movie just like Knight Rider's car talked and a fully loaded bus jumped a big gap in "Speed."

Putting out a fire like that isn't a matter of dumping water on the top of the building. The water has to be directed in order to much good, and even then it would take godawful amounts. I know that doing the math is a better way to deal with the issue, but unless someone that knows what they are talking about says that this could do any good, I am going to put it into the Knight Rider category.
 
JimBenArm said:
and you do this? He's injured, and home at the moment.
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Investigative arthroscopy yesterday and dang if it aint sore! :eek:

I was going to tell the consultant that I didn't need expertise, common sense would do, but then I thought of Wiz & Co. and just let them put me under......:D
 
Wizard said:
There were huge water tanks at the top. I'm sure I heard each tower had 180,000 gallons.

It's surprising that there was still fires after the collapse. The burning debris fell 80 stories and all that water fell on it
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You have to be kidding me.
 
I've never heard of water tanks on top of the buildings. Perhaps Wizard can find some photos of the roof and point them out.

As for the rooftop rescue, Gumboot mentioned the locked doors, and smoke and whatnot. The other thing impedeing any rescue from above was the fact that the FDNY does not have helicopters. Only the NYPD. These two agencies as a whole have a somewhat bitter rivalry. After the '93 bombing, they were forced to work together to rehearse and plan coordinated efforts for more efficient rooftop rescues. (I believe the stipulation for roof extraction was that they would use the police choppers, but one or two members of the fire department would have to be in the chopper.) This was done once or twice since '93.

Considering the FDNY was technically in charge (as it was a fire),the NYPD had the helicopters, the extensive communication breakdowns that day, and the physical conditions of the roof, any rescue up there was all but impossible.
 
I believe it was smoke primarily preventing any kind of helicopter rescue. The helicopters couldn't get that close to the towers because of it.

As far as water tanks go, I'd love to see wizard's proof of giant tanks on the top. Even if there were giant water tanks), it wouldn't have stopped fires fueled by jet fuel anyway. It might have arrested some of the burning building materials, but it wouldn't have put out all the fires. It'd be nice to hear from some of the fire science people on this.

Looks like the 5,000 gallon tanks were the backup water source for the fire suppression system, which obviously was ineffective against such massive fires.

How would the water get down to all the fires, anyway?
 
Gumboot said:
The closest to the impact zone that any firemen got was the 78th floor of WTC2,
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Wasn't that the source floor of the fire in Towering Inferno??!:jaw-dropp

I loved the fact that the first reply to this thread was by Architect, which is what Steve McQueen calls Paul Newman throughout the movie. :p
 
One of the documentaries on TV (might have been Anatomy of a Collapse?) mentioned that the two buildings had so many antennae and other assorted junk on the top that it would have been impossible to land a copter on the roof even on a normal day.
 
Larry Lovage said:
Wasn't that the source floor of the fire in Towering Inferno??!:jaw-dropp

I loved the fact that the first reply to this thread was by Architect, which is what Steve McQueen calls Paul Newman throughout the movie. :p
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Construction magnate Jim Duncan (Holden) has teamed with architect Doug Roberts (Newman) to build a 135-storey structure named 'The Glass Tower' in San Francisco. On opening night, many dignitaries including a U.S. Senator, San Francisco's Mayor & his wife and others are celebrating in the ballroom/restaurant on the top floor. On the 81st floor, in a utility room, an overloaded circuit breaker starts a fire in a can of oily rags. While the party is still going on, Roberts is inspecting the wiring in the building and discovers it is very low standard - a serious fire hazard. In the Security HQ, a guard, Jernigan (Simpson) spots smoke crawling out from under a door, and activates the alarm. The San Francisco Fire Department immediately comes out, with Chief O'Hallorhan (McQueen) commanding. By now fires are starting all over the building, and the enraged Duncan discovers that his son-in-law, Simmons (Chamberlain) is the one who chose the cheaper wiring to save money. As the night goes on the fire races closer and closer to those trapped in the Tower, until the Chief discovers that detonating the water tanks above them will likely drown the fire - but will it kill the remaining men trapped inside?
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072308/plotsummary
:duck:
 
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