Question for the twoofers about why NIST is wrong

I could just as easily ask you to explain why such a momentous engineering failure has not produced thousands of academic papers explaining the total destruction of the buildings.

Again, why should it produce thousands of separate papers? Why shouldn't hundreds of structural engineers collaborate to produce one report? Shouldn't the combined resources and expertise of those engineers be far superior to their hundreds of individual contributions?
 
What a ridiculous question. What are they meant to do if they disagree with it? stage a revolution?
They would do what all respectable, ethical scientists do. They would gather data, produce calculations and publish them in reputable scientific journals. This is in stark contrast to the numerous conspiracy scientists who claim to have scientific proof that the report is false or that the evidence is contrary to the hypothesis.
They wouldn't dare because thety know they would be hounded as conspiracy theorists like Pegelow was when he opened his mouth

So conspiracy theorists are all brave, intelligent, infallible freedom fighters, but structural engineers are all cowards? Structural engineers so highly value their jobs and positions that they would be too afraid to expose the largest act of murder ever perpetrated on US soil?
 
Ok heres my first problem:

Quote:
NIST apparently ignored thermal conduction within its model of the steel structure. Since steel is a good conductor of heat, and the steel in the Twin Towers' structures was well connected, their massive steel structures would have drawn heat away from the parts that were exposed to fire. The Report describes a model of "The Fire-Structure Interface", and describes the computation of heat transfer between the air and the steel structure, but it does not mention the conduction of heat along spans of the steel structure. (p 131-2/181-2) The suspicion that NIST simply ignored the conduction of heat within the steel is corroborated by the Report's disclosure that they used heat transfer tests on isolated steel elements to calibrate their model. (p 134/184)

Ok, we very obviously have an issue with drawing universal premises from a single statement. The author declares that because some portions of the NIST report do not specifically mention thermal conduction, it is never considered in the entirety of the NIST report despite the fact that NIST makes no such claim.

Furthermore, the statement itself can be shown to be false:

NIST NCSTAR1-5G said:
This chapter is the first of 4 chapters that details how the major structural components (along with the fireproofing) in the World Trade Center towers (WTC) were represented with 3 dimensional finite-element models and also how the thermal response to these components was coupled to temporarily and spatially evolving realistic fires.

[...]elements with 3-D thermal conduction were used to mesh the steel and fireproofing of each perimeter column

Chapter 4 said:
The connection between the two is established primarily through the interaction of radiative heat transfer between the solid and gas phases with the conduction of heat through the structural elements

And so on and so on.

Wizard said:
Please show me your correspondence with all the experts around the world that agree with the NIST report. I mean you speak so confidently for them, I must assume you have asked them all
This response is courtesy of a licensed civil engineer with a Master's degree who wholeheartedly supports the NIST conclusions and applauds the report as a triumph of scientific collaboration and research. I was required to read the entirety of the report and the appendices by my supervisors, and the report sits comfortably on my desk right now.
 
Ok, we very obviously have an issue with drawing universal premises from a single statement. The author declares that because some portions of the NIST report do not specifically mention thermal conduction, it is never considered in the entirety of the NIST report despite the fact that NIST makes no such claim.

Furthermore, the statement itself can be shown to be false:







And so on and so on.


This response is courtesy of a licensed civil engineer with a Master's degree who wholeheartedly supports the NIST conclusions and applauds the report as a triumph of scientific collaboration and research. I was required to read the entirety of the report and the appendices by my supervisors, and the report sits comfortably on my desk right now.


Right could you please explain, using your masters degree, how the towers collapsed completely after collapse initiation was reached.
 
Right could you please explain, using your masters degree, how the towers collapsed completely after collapse initiation was reached.

Momentum.

Buildings aren't designed the bear the weight of 12 (WTC1) or 28 (WTC2) floors coming down onto them.
 
Conduction is very relevant. In order to heat a portion of steel it must be subjected to the source for a period of time. If the heat is going to be conducted away then that time is increased. So the model is flawed from that point of view alone

Nominated for the "I saw a book once, so that makes me more of an expert than guys who actually have used heat transfer theory for 30 years" award
Possibly the 2nd most ignorant post of the year...
 
Heres another problem you might like to dismiss without debunking:
NIST continues in the tradition of Core Denial, with a number of misrepresentations, including, apparently, in the computer models that it supposedly used to simulate collapse initiation. Figure 6-9 shows sections of the global model for both the North and the South Towers. Both show the core columns to be thinner than the perimeter columns. But we know that the perimeter columns had outside dimensions of about 13.5 by 14 inches, and that most of the core columns had much larger dimensions. The outer row of core columns in each Tower apparently measured 56 by 22 inches for most of its height. We might forgive NIST for skimping on the dimensions of the core columns at the 100th floor of the North Tower, since the box columns apparently transitioned to smaller H-columns around the 100th floor, but their use of tiny core columns on the 85th floor of the South Tower is clearly in error.
st_floor_core.jpg
[SIZE=-1]This is a zoom-up of Figure 6-9 (p 96/146), which shows the "multifloor global model" for WTC 2, in which the top floor (pictured) is the 85th floor. Note the miniscule size of the core columns (the short, toothpick-like rods in the central area of the floor). [/SIZE]
1) Your quote is unsourced.
2) a) The link in your quote goes to here: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html#columns
2) b) The only part of that link that is close to what you quoted states
Some of the core columns apparently had outside dimensions of 36 inches by 16 inches. Others had larger dimensions, measuring 52 inches by 22 inches. [SIZE=-1]3Â[/SIZE]
2) c) The footnote for the quote in 2b points here: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/eng-news-record.htm
2) d) The link in 2c states
Into the towers rising from the excavation are going some 200,000 pieces of steel having a total weight of about 200,000 tons (about 1/5 of the total weight of the structures). Individual columns in the lower core section, measuring 52 x 22 in. in plan, are formed of 5 and 3-in, plate into almost solid steel shafts that weigh up to 56 tons.
3) None of the links substantiates the claim of "perimeter columns had outside dimensions of about 13.5 by 14 inches"
4) a) The closest thing to substantiate the claim of "But we know that the perimeter columns had outside dimensions of about 13.5 by 14 inches" is from the link in 2a, which states "For the dimensions, see FEMA report, "World Trade Center Building Performance Study," undated. In addition, the outside of each tower was covered by a frame of 14-inch-wide steel columns; the centers of the steel columns were 40 inches apart. These exterior walls bore most of the weight of the building. The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft, in which elevators and stairwells were grouped. Ibid. For stairwells and elevators, see Port Authority response to Commission interrogatory, May 2004. [SIZE=-1]1Â [/SIZE]"
4) b) The footnote in 4a links to http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/911commission/report/911Report_Notes.htm

Conclusion: The core columns were not 56"x22" for "most of its height", they were 52"x22" in the "lower core".




aside: for anyone still dealing with Christophera, the link in 2c also has
Each tower is 209 x 209 ft in plan and is column-free between the exterior walls and the 79 x 139-ft core, thus providing 35-ft clear spans on the east and west sides and 65-ft clear spans on north and south sides. In addition to the usual service and utility rooms, the core of each tower will contain 104 elevator cabs running in 36 shafts. This unusual arrangement is made possible by the use of 23 shuttle express elevators which will discharge passengers into so-called skylobbies where they transfer to local elevators. As a result, as many as three elevator cabs will use a single shaft.
 
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Right could you please explain, using your masters degree, how the towers collapsed completely after collapse initiation was reached.

That's a rather combative dodge, don't you think? Are you willing to retract your statement that NIST does not consider conduction in its thermal analysis?

Edited to add: Would you believe me if I told you how the towers collapsed after initiation was reached?
 
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It always cracks me up how CTers love to discretize the mathematics into pseudoscientific gibberish english words. The acceleration was "near" freefall, and the thermal conductivity is "good", and the ground flight 93 hit was "soft". They ignore a mountain of mathematics and instead want to categorize things into english. Once they've determined the english label, they can then equate all things inside their label. Since steel is a "good conductor" that means it automagically is capable of teleporting heat anywhere at any time.

I agree completely. Relative terms like "near" and "good" work well in philosophy but are completely useless in engineering. Wizard should try plugging "good" into a heat conduction equation or "near" into an acceleration or momentum equation and see how it works out.

I asked for numbers earlier, Wizard. What values are you using for thermal conductivity? What is your heat transfer coefficient at the surface of the beams? What heat load are you using? How are you accounting for contact resistance at the joints between beams? Show your work.

I would love to see a CT try to write a Master's thesis in engineering. My advisor would probably beat the CT over the head with it while saying, "Rewrite this completely, and this time actually do the research."

Wizard said:
Right could you please explain, using your masters degree, how the towers collapsed completely after collapse initiation was reached.

The towers collapsed "completely" once initation was reached for the same reason that people wear helmets in construction zones. it takes much more force to stop a moving object than it does to support the same object when stationary.
 
As far as the thermal conductivity of the structure of the WTC, yes, the thermal conductivity would transport some heat away from the area being heated by the fire, thus slowing the weakening of the beams. This cooling power is minor compared to the power output of the fire. Yes, steel is a good conductor of heat compared to lead or wood, but a poor one compared to copper. The thermal conductivity and thermal mass are relevant variables and how they were covered in the NIST report was covered by a previous post. If the beams had no thermal mass or thermal conductivity the collapse would have been instant, given the beams would have heated up instantly. The time between the crash and the collapse is an example of how the thermal mass and thermal conductivity slowed the heating and weakening of the columns.

Wiz's claims have been disproven in multiple posts. Wiz, will you admit that some of your claims have been shown to be false or back them up instead of moving on to another subject? Is there some evidense that could exist that would prove the official version of events to you?
 
As I requested in the other thread, please watch this video:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=718236659434732032&q=kevin+ryan

It covers everything that is wrong with the NIST report.

I am not going to transcribe it

The whole video is worthless! (as in CT junk)

Tell how anyone could be so dumb as Ryan? He makes error upon error. I had to watch it three time to be sure I was not on drugs!

Ryan does not even understand basic stuff! What is his degree in Wizard? Does he even know why he is wrong on all of this stuff?

I have to watch it again to see why idiots are able to believe this. Last time I watched it I could not find anything of value or factual to use to prove anything more than Ryan's inability to reason and reveal anything of value about 9/11.

Ryan must not be an engineer with any expertise in the things he is trying to say.

What do you think Wizard? Is Ryan saying anything? Anyone have a list they think will hold up as evidence for the CT world?
 
Heres another problem you might like to dismiss without debunking:
NIST continues in the tradition of Core Denial, with a number of misrepresentations, including, apparently, in the computer models that it supposedly used to simulate collapse initiation. Figure 6-9 shows sections of the global model for both the North and the South Towers. Both show the core columns to be thinner than the perimeter columns. But we know that the perimeter columns had outside dimensions of about 13.5 by 14 inches, and that most of the core columns had much larger dimensions. The outer row of core columns in each Tower apparently measured 56 by 22 inches for most of its height. We might forgive NIST for skimping on the dimensions of the core columns at the 100th floor of the North Tower, since the box columns apparently transitioned to smaller H-columns around the 100th floor, but their use of tiny core columns on the 85th floor of the South Tower is clearly in error.
This is a zoom-up of Figure 6-9 (p 96/146), which shows the "multifloor global model" for WTC 2, in which the top floor (pictured) is the 85th floor. Note the miniscule size of the core columns (the short, toothpick-like rods in the central area of the floor).

So your contention is that if the graphic display of the model at a magnification that allows the whole thing to be seen on-screen doesn't look just like a photo of the structure the model is invalid?

Funny, if you go to NIST NCSTAR 1-6 and look at figure 4-28, Long span trusses of converted ANSYS model for floor 96 of WTC 1, or figure 4-29, Core floor beams and columns for converted ANSYS model for floor 96 of WTC 1(page 173 of the pdf), both of which are shown at a closer "zoom" than the multifloor model, it's clear that the core columns are graphically represented as wide-flange shapes.

But then, if you look at figure 4-40 and figure 4-41 (page 188 of the pdf), which show how the exterior panel assemblies were modeled in ANSYS, the columns appear to be mere lines and the spandrel plates look like some sort of net.

WTF is going on here? I think I might understand it; perhaps an analogy will help.

In the circuit simulation software I use, an MMBT5089 and an MJ15024 will both be represented, in the schematic view, by exactly the same symbol- the standard schematic symbol for an NPN bipolar junction transistor. But the former is a low noise, low level amplifier about the size of a matchhead and the latter is a 250V 16A 250W power device about the size of my thumb. The schematic symbol doesn't resemble what either looks like in the least. By CT logic, it's impossible for a simulation using either model to produce an accurate result.

But what's going on is that what shows in the schematic view is only a symbolic representation of a mathematical model. What's behind that "NPN BJT" symbol is a list of several dozen parameters which describe the transistor's electrical behavior. The models of different transistors use different values for these parameters, which is why they will behave differently when used in a simulated circuit.

Whether or not the schematic view from the sim software looks anything like how the circuit will look if built doesn't have a @#$% thing to do with how well the model describes reality. All that matters is that the physical characteristics of the components be accurately described in numbers and that the mathematical methods used to derive and solve the system of equations that describes the entire circuit be correct.

In the structural simulations, what matters is that the numerical descriptions of the columns, beams etc. and the properties of the materials they're made of be accurate and that the mathematical methods of solving the equations that describe the behavior of the structure they compose be correct.

Photo-realism or the lack of it is completely irrelevant because what you're looking at is simply a symbolic representation of a mathematical model. Claiming that the model is wrong because it doesn't meet your uninformed expectations of how it should look is just a demonstration of ignorance.
 
Wizard

Can I be quite clear here and cut to the chase; are you claiming that because of the thermal conductivity of steel that ANY temperature rise will be quickly disippated and that (ergo) failure due to normal fire loadings is impossible?

Or are you just claiming something specific about the WTC fires?

It's just that if it's the former, I can and will prove that you're talking out of your beam end........
 
So your contention is that if the graphic display of the model at a magnification that allows the whole thing to be seen on-screen doesn't look just like a photo of the structure the model is invalid?

Funny, if you go to NIST NCSTAR 1-6 and look at figure 4-28, Long span trusses of converted ANSYS model for floor 96 of WTC 1, or figure 4-29, Core floor beams and columns for converted ANSYS model for floor 96 of WTC 1(page 173 of the pdf), both of which are shown at a closer "zoom" than the multifloor model, it's clear that the core columns are graphically represented as wide-flange shapes.

But then, if you look at figure 4-40 and figure 4-41 (page 188 of the pdf), which show how the exterior panel assemblies were modeled in ANSYS, the columns appear to be mere lines and the spandrel plates look like some sort of net.

WTF is going on here? I think I might understand it; perhaps an analogy will help.

In the circuit simulation software I use, an MMBT5089 and an MJ15024 will both be represented, in the schematic view, by exactly the same symbol- the standard schematic symbol for an NPN bipolar junction transistor. But the former is a low noise, low level amplifier about the size of a matchhead and the latter is a 250V 16A 250W power device about the size of my thumb. The schematic symbol doesn't resemble what either looks like in the least. By CT logic, it's impossible for a simulation using either model to produce an accurate result.

But what's going on is that what shows in the schematic view is only a symbolic representation of a mathematical model. What's behind that "NPN BJT" symbol is a list of several dozen parameters which describe the transistor's electrical behavior. The models of different transistors use different values for these parameters, which is why they will behave differently when used in a simulated circuit.

Whether or not the schematic view from the sim software looks anything like how the circuit will look if built doesn't have a @#$% thing to do with how well the model describes reality. All that matters is that the physical characteristics of the components be accurately described in numbers and that the mathematical methods used to derive and solve the system of equations that describes the entire circuit be correct.

In the structural simulations, what matters is that the numerical descriptions of the columns, beams etc. and the properties of the materials they're made of be accurate and that the mathematical methods of solving the equations that describe the behavior of the structure they compose be correct.

Photo-realism or the lack of it is completely irrelevant because what you're looking at is simply a symbolic representation of a mathematical model. Claiming that the model is wrong because it doesn't meet your uninformed expectations of how it should look is just a demonstration of ignorance.
I confess--I don't use ANSYS. I use I-Deas, PATRAN, and NASTRAN.
All the graphic representation does is allow you to see the basic shape of the elements. NASTRAN just uses lines. Patran does a little better, and I-DEAS does show the relative size, but at any kind of reasonable scale, there will be very little discernable difference between a 13 inch and a 52 inch WF shape. You have to look at the Physical Properties to actually tell the difference. You can also turn that feature off. The ANSYS I recall using (several years ago) just used primitive shapes (rods, circles, squares, etc).
It takes a whole bunch of computer power to show results and shape of element--graphics power better used to display the results in a timely manner. Not everybody is a gamer--we actually use the power built into our computers.
And before anybody gets bent out of shape over the apparent deflections shown in anything, default for any of these programs is generally normalized to max deflection=10% of the screen--so you can actually see it.
So if you are showing a 6 feet deflection on a 1300 foot building, the apparent deflection, as shown on the plots, will appear to be 130 feet. This is known as exageration you have to actually read the little numbers on the screen or in the report. This, obviously, is something Wizzard (Rincewind?) and his ilk are incapable of doing. They just don't have the skills
 
As I requested in the other thread, please watch this video:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=718236659434732032&q=kevin+ryan

It covers everything that is wrong with the NIST report.

I am not going to transcribe it

Has anyone found anything useful in this Chemist's trying to tear up the NIST report?

He is such an sad fellow. Lost his job due to biased political made up junk science lies.

Very sad. He has outright lies and no idea about aircraft impacts; He is about 6 years away from being qualified to even talk on the entire subject!

His energy stuff sucks. Anyone disagree?

His assumptions suck. Anyone disagree?

Is anyone surprised he lost his job?

Are you surprised he even got a job?
 
Wow. I have not been able to check this thread since last night. (Very busy). It seems that all of my work has been done for me though. Wizard, I have read through all of the posts and every single one of your claims have been completely obliterated. Do you have anything else that needs to be discussed regarding the NIST report? So far your problems with NIST have been absolutely false and unsubstantiated by evidence. What else do you need clearing up?
 

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