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WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

So if the upper mass (floors) is the force that caused all the lower floors below the impact point to sequentially collapse in a downward progression...and this upper mass continually increased in size...because this upper mass of floors is pancaking the lower floorings...well, what do we have here? What's the name for this type of collapse?
 
28th Kingdom said:
So if the upper mass (floors) is the force that caused all the lower floors below the impact point to sequentially collapse in a downward progression...and this upper mass continually increased in size...because this upper mass of floors is pancaking the lower floorings...well, what do we have here? What's the name for this type of collapse?
Click to expand...
progressive collapse

...even though i know your going to pull out that quote you mined from the NIST NAQ again, as if the word "progress" and its derivitives can only be use dto describe on thing and one thing only


seriously though, i have work in the morning so im goign to bed, hopefully by the time i get back here youll have progressed beyond simple word games (and no i dont mean youll have suffered a collapse, pancake or otherwise)
 
28th Kingdom said:
So if the upper mass (floors) is the force that caused all the lower floors below the impact point to sequentially collapse in a downward progression...and this upper mass continually increased in size...because this upper mass of floors is pancaking the lower floorings...well, what do we have here? What's the name for this type of collapse?
Click to expand...

Pancaking did not initiate the collapse.

Pancaking happened after the "disproportionate collapse" started.

28K, we know you are trying to get us to call the whole collapse a pancaking collapse, then you will quote the NIST as saying it was not a pancaking collapse, then you get to call DoubleSpeak again.

You are a semantic twit.
 
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28th Kingdom said:
Really carefully, explain what initiated the collapse. And, please don't hide behind a word as vague as, "fail." I don't wanna hear outer columns failed....because the floors are still attached to them. I also don't wanna hear transferring of loads - cus, guess what? The floors are still being supported by the outer columns...whoopsie.
Click to expand...



I will, even though I have already TWICE posted to you a comprehensive summary of the collapse sequence WITH ILLUSTRATIONS! And guess what, I'm going to use both "fail" and "transfer of load" because both are precise and useful phrases that accurately explain what happened.

Your ability to comprehend what I write is your problem.

Here's that diagram again:



Perhaps this time you will bother to take notice.

At impact, the aircraft destroyed floors in the imact zone, distributed 150 tonnes of aircraft debris across the floors, spread fires across all impact floors, and severed multiple exterior and core columns. Debris shredded fireproofing from steel, as seen in photographs.

The immediate result of this was a transfer of load from the severed columns (which obviously were nolonger capabe of carring their load) to other columns. In the example of the core columns, this load was transferred to the exterior columns via the hat truss.

The combination of additional loading on the floor trusses, damage, and fires caused localised floor failures throughout the period of the building fire. These floor failures can be confirmed by 9-1-1 calls made by people trapped in the towers.

As time progressed the increasing heat and the extensive debris caused a sagging of the floor trusses that remained intact in the impact zone. Because the angle clips that secured these trusses to the exterior columns remained intact, the sagging of the trusses pulled inwards on the exterior columns in the impact zone.

Both the sagging of floors and the inward bowing of the exterior columns can be clearly seen in photographs and video footage.

As the bowing continued, this introduced a lateral force to the exterior columns - a force they were not designed to carry. Ultimately the degree of bowing produced a force that exceeded the physical capability of the columns. At this moment the columns across the entire face of the building in the impact zone failed simultaneously. This, also, can be seen in close-ups of the impact zone at the moment of collapse initiation.

As these multiple floors of exterior failed inwards, the floors attached to these columns were no longer being held up, and thus fell downwards.

These falling floors, and the failed exterior columsn, then fell down upon intact floors, adding more loading to them. This produced the downward collapse sequence of the floor trusses that caused the "squibs" and explains eye witness testimony from people inside the towers who survived.

Meanwhile, you're left with the damaged core columns trying to hold the entire upper floors on their own - something they are not designed to do. Furthermore, because the impact side of the exterior columns failed first, the failure was not symetrical, thus the transfer of full load to the core columns was not symetrical.

I think it goes without saying that at this point the damaged core columns inside the impact zone then failed.

Thus left the entire upper section of each building suspended in mid air. Naturally it didn't stay that way. The upper floor then fell through what had been the impact zone.

Now all of that, from exterior column failure to upper section descent, took a fraction of a second.

So at this point the remainding of the building - that section below impact, has the upper section, the failed floor trusses, the failed exterior colums AND the failed core all falling on it at once.

Because the exterior columns fell INWARDS, when the mass hit the intact exterior columns below, they fell inside them as well, thus they forced them outwards. Hence why you can see the exterior columns of the buildings peeling away in enormous multi-floor sections. It was primarily these exterior columns that damaged surrounding buildings.

Meanwhile ahead of the visible collapse wave (which is the peeling exterior column sections and the falling upper section) all that loose debris is hammering its way through floor trusses, and each floor that is hit adds another floor's mass to the equation. Because the exterior columns were intact down here, this material tended to fall much closer to the footprint of the building.

This left only the core columns.

Then the top section comes crashing down, right behind the collapse front of the floor trusses.

Now this top sections isn't going to stay intact, obviously. For one, it's hitting the intact core columns at massive force. The core columns most likely tore the upper section to pieces. By now the dust from crushed concrete and gypsum drywall is obscuring our view of the building.

Following the path of least resistance, the upper floors are ripped apart by the lower core columns and fall either side.

So as the last of the exterior columns peel away (you will not in pictures at Ground Zero that the distinct exterior columns of the lobby area are all folded outwards in a fan, away from the base) and the last of the floor mass (now mixed with failed exterior columns, aircraft debris, and the churned left-overs of the upper floors, not to mention the shredded remains of 2,000+ human beings) crashed to earth, you're left with the core columns - about 60 floors worth, still standing.

Except of course, given the tornado of energy that has just ripped by them, and given they were NEVER intended to stand on their own, within a few seconds the core columns fail to, and collapse into their componant sections.

Hence at Ground Zero what you see is the following:

-Exterior column sections spread in a broad area in a fan-shape, causing most of the damage to surrounding buildings, with few exterior columns in the building footprints.
-Smaller detrius of debris consisting of floor trusses, floor debris, drywall debris, floor contents, aircraft debris, human body parts, and so forth, centred around the building footprints.
-Larger core columns on the top of the pile.

I hope you finally get it this time. Third time lucky perhaps?

-Gumboot
 
Where was the inferno that cause the joist to be comprised?

If people made it alive from the floors above the impact zone, how did they do this when the only stairs where by the core? Were not the core hot enough to cause it to comprise the steel?
There were people in the impact zone
and there were people below the impact zone.
Where was the inferno?

When Chief Orio Palmer reached the the 78th floor he claimed that he needed only two fireliens to knockout the fire........so where exactly was the inferno that cause the steel joist to be comprised?

Urea Nitire is far more potent and much hotter than jet fuel, why did this 1500 lb bomb not collapse the tower? The damage columns were supporting the entire building.

in 9/11...the cores were only suporting those floors above the impact zone.

Recently the police department in fort lauderdale fired an independant investigator, Because he was also an expert witness against the police in another case.........that clearly shows that the government is partial as to whom their official spokes person is going to be. For example, would the government allow Physicts Steven Jones to represent them in an investigation?
 
se7ensnakes said:
There were people in the impact zone
and there were people below the impact zone.
Where was the inferno?
Click to expand...

Probably about the level at which people JUMPED from the building because the inferno was so bad that they considered the only alternative was to throw themselves out of the building.

Enough with the "fires weren't hot enough" crap...people died that day in nasty and ugly ways because the building they were in was on fire.
 
se7ensnakes said:
If people made it alive from the floors above the impact zone, how did they do this when the only stairs where by the core? Were not the core hot enough to cause it to comprise the steel?
There were people in the impact zone
and there were people below the impact zone.
Where was the inferno?

When Chief Orio Palmer reached the the 78th floor he claimed that he needed only two fireliens to knockout the fire........so where exactly was the inferno that cause the steel joist to be comprised?

Urea Nitire is far more potent and much hotter than jet fuel, why did this 1500 lb bomb not collapse the tower? The damage columns were supporting the entire building.

in 9/11...the cores were only suporting those floors above the impact zone.

Recently the police department in fort lauderdale fired an independant investigator, Because he was also an expert witness against the police in another case.........that clearly shows that the government is partial as to whom their official spokes person is going to be. For example, would the government allow Physicts Steven Jones to represent them in an investigation?
Click to expand...

This has to be one of the most factually ignorant and most ridiculous posts I've ever seen. I find it difficult to believe that anyone posting on this site could be so (rule 8) stupid, so I have to conclude that the author is either a stark raving lunatic or a deliberate windup. My guess is the latter, but I don't exclude the possibility of the former.

Assuming the latter, please, take some time to apprise yourself of the facts and evidence and then come back next year once you've managed to wrap your feeble mind around the basics, okay?
 
Have trouble reading, seven?

1) Please show that any people above the impact zones made it safely to the ground.

2) Show that the firechief needed only two firelines (whatever they are - I'm assuming you mean firehoses).

3) Where exactly does "Urea Nitire" come into this? Or are you attempting to infer that someone used fertiliser bombs in the WTC?

4) What do the HR actions of the Fort Lauderdale police department this year have to do with 11-Sep-2001 in New York, if anything?

5) Steven Jones is NOT a physicist. He's a chemist (and even that's being generous).

Oh, and a word of warning: Posting nonsense responses will earn you immediate status of a TROLL CALL! And I have a special welcome for trolls.
 
orio palmer

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]9:52 a.m. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ladder 15: "Floor 78?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Battalion Seven Chief: "Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ladder 15: "Alright ten-four, we're on our way."[/FONT]
 
se7ensnakes said:
If people made it alive from the floors above the impact zone, how did they do this when the only stairs where by the core? Were not the core hot enough to cause it to comprise the steel?
Click to expand...


About 100 or so people made it out of WTC2 from above the impact zone because one stairwell remained passable (although they had to hammer their way through the drywall at one point). These people evacuated WTC2 within moments of impact, well before the fires became intense.

Everyone else in or above the impact zone in both buildings perished.



se7ensnakes said:
There were people in the impact zone
Click to expand...


Almost everyone from inside the impact zone itself that survived were people on the 78th floor of WTC2, which is a sky lobby. Only the very wing tip of UA175 hit this floor, however according to eye witness testimony this was enough to kill between 50 and 200 people instantly (the sky lobby was packed with people awaiting to board elevators to either go down or go back up). In addition a small handful of people inside the impact zone of WTC2 survived because UA175 hit one corner of the building. I believe a couple of people survived from the 82 and 84th floors of WTC2.

Every single person in WTC1 above the 91st floor died.





se7ensnakes said:
When Chief Orio Palmer reached the the 78th floor he claimed that he needed only two fireliens to knockout the fire........so where exactly was the inferno that cause the steel joist to be comprised?
Click to expand...


The 78th floor was the very bottom floor of impact, and is a sky lobby. There would have been very little jet fuel there, and there was very little furniture to burn. In addition, fires primarily spread UPWARDS, not down.

The inferno was above the 78th floor.



se7ensnakes said:
Urea Nitire is far more potent and much hotter than jet fuel, why did this 1500 lb bomb not collapse the tower? The damage columns were supporting the entire building.
Click to expand...


I assume you're talking about the 93 WTC bombing? The bomb didn't detonate properly. If it had, investigator's believe the attack would have been successful. In any even, while a high explosive is more damaging than jet fuel, there was a LOT more jet fuel than there was explosives.

-Gumboot
 
*SNORT!!*

Two "isolated pockets of fire"...on the 78th floor alone!

"We gonna need two engines up here."
Click to expand...
Missed this, did you?

Incidentally, floor 78 was just below the impact zone, and the south stair was the one most likely to be UNobstructed (the 757 hit on the south face, so the destruction went through initially to the north side of the building).
 
So you are saying that the jet fuel was contained in the upper floors and never made its way down?
 
se7ensnakes said:
Urea Nitire is far more potent and much hotter than jet fuel, why did this 1500 lb bomb not collapse the tower? The damage columns were supporting the entire building.
Click to expand...

No, Urea Nitrate is not hotter than jet fuel in total energy!

Your basement blast in 93 your say 1500 pounds of explosives. OOPS the fuel is equal to 315 tons of TNT heat energy!

That is 630,000 pound vs 1,500 pounds. Gee you are behind by 628,500 pounds. The heat energy of the jet fuel is 628,000 pounds of TNT heat energy more than your tiny bomb.

Aircraft impacts were 1300 pounds of TNT and 2066 pounds of TNT. The impacts alone on 9/11 were as big or bigger than your tiny bomb!!!

So you are short on heat energy! Very short. This is debunked by 628,500 pounds of TNT heat energy! Debunked a bunch.
 
Urea Nitrate pound for pound causes far more damage than jet fuel

This is why it is used as an explosive.......
 
se7ensnakes said:
By the time the morning was over, the two strangers would become blood brothers. Through fate, good fortune and raw determination, Praimnath and Clark were two of only four people to escape the South Tower at or above the impact zone after United Airlines Flight 175 struck the building at 9:03 a.m.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/09/09/ar911.last.ones.out/index.html
Click to expand...

Does this mean you have moved on?

What about your 93 bomb false statement?

se7ensnakes said:
Urea Nitire is far more potent and much hotter than jet fuel, why did this 1500 lb bomb not collapse the tower? The damage columns were supporting the entire building.
Click to expand...
No, Urea Nitrate is not hotter than jet fuel in total energy!

Your basement blast in 93 your say 1500 pounds of explosives. OOPS the fuel is equal to 315 tons of TNT heat energy!

That is 630,000 pound vs 1,500 pounds. Gee you are behind by 628,500 pounds. The heat energy of the jet fuel is 628,000 pounds of TNT heat energy more than your tiny bomb.

Aircraft impacts were 1300 pounds of TNT and 2066 pounds of TNT. The impacts alone on 9/11 were as big or bigger than your tiny bomb!!!

So you are short on heat energy! Very short. This is debunked by 628,500 pounds of TNT heat energy! Debunked a bunch.
 
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