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WTC Discussion: Core Column Temperature & Failure.

28th Kingdom said:
Sir,

Please send me a credible link to a site that defines a pancake collapse, as trusses causing outer columns to bow in.

Thank you.
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you wont find a credible site stating that because thats not what a pancake collapse is

do we need a 5th time?
 
28th Kingdom said:
Sir,

Please send me a credible link to a site that defines a pancake collapse, as sagging trusses causing outer columns to bow in.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, didn't you read your own quote? "Pancake collapse", as used in your quote, was quite clearly defined as "a significant portion of the floor collapsing". That is how it is used in your quote, which is the only thing on the table at the moment. I am assuming that link is credible enough for you; if that is not a credible link, why would you quote it?
 
28th doesn't understand the difference between what caused the collapses, which was not pancaking, and what happened to the floors after collapse initiation. He apparently hasn't even read the NIST FAQ, for crying out loud.
 
Gravy said:
He apparently hasn't even read the NIST FAQ, for crying out loud.
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hes strip mined quotes out of it though, and proposed the dismissal of the entire NIST report because they used the word "progress" to describe a pancake collapse and the WTC center collapse
 
Trusses sag...outer columns bow...outer columns break...floors become detached from outer columns...floors swing down...and are still attached to core column...floors are now pulling straight down on core columns...floors are gonna drag core columns straight down, how?
 
28th Kingdom said:
Trusses sag...outer columns bow...outer columns break...floors become detached from outer columns...floors swing down...and are still attached to core column...floors are now pulling straight down on core columns...floors are gonna drag core columns straight down, how?
Click to expand...

When the outer columns fail, the load is transfered to the core columns due to the hat truss at the top of the buildings. This overwhelms the already damaged core columns.

Hat Truss system
 
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Gravy said:
28th doesn't understand the difference between what caused the collapses, which was not pancaking, and what happened to the floors after collapse initiation. He apparently hasn't even read the NIST FAQ, for crying out loud.
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Is outer columns failing - a collapse in and of itself? Is that the actual collapse or the initiation of the collapse? If the floors pancake in a sequential progression from top to bottom, how can we define that as anything other than a pancake collapse? (that is... without escaping to the Land Of Dsytopia for a wonderful ride on the Doublethinkishpere of Psychosis)
 
1. trusses sag
2. outer columns bow
3. outer columns break
4. gravity load is transferred to core columns
5. core columns fail
6: nothing is holding the top 30 stories of the building up
7: gravity does its thing

steps 3-7 happen in the span of about 1 second or less, the core failed almost immediately upon taking up the gravity load from the perimeter columns
 
28th Kingdom said:
Is outer columns failing - a collapse in and of itself? Is that the actual collapse or the initiation of the collapse? If the floors pancake in a sequential progression from top to bottom, how can we define that as anything other than a pancake collapse? (that is... without escaping to the Land Of Dsytopia for a wonderful ride on the Doublethinkishpere of Psychosis)
Click to expand...
in an engineering sense a pancake collapse is a failure of the connections between the floor trusses and the columns (number 5)

my assumption is that upon this failure the column would remain in place and the floors would fall, stripping the lower floors off the columns as they fall
 
defaultdotxbe said:
in an engineering sense a pancake collapse is a failure of the connections between the floor trusses and the columns (number 5)

my assumption is that upon this failure the column would remain in place and the floors would fall, stripping the lower floors off the columns as they fall
Click to expand...

So how does the word, "pancake," relate to the failure of connections between the floor trusses and columns? All you have to do is link me to a site (other than NIST) that clearly defines this technical industry term.

Thanks.
 
28th Kingdom said:
Is outer columns failing - a collapse in and of itself? Is that the actual collapse or the initiation of the collapse? If the floors pancake in a sequential progression from top to bottom, how can we define that as anything other than a pancake collapse? (that is... without escaping to the Land Of Dsytopia for a wonderful ride on the Doublethinkishpere of Psychosis)
Click to expand...


It's not a pancake collapse because the global collapse is not initiated by floor failure.

Isn't that kind of obvious?

-Gumboot
 
28th Kingdom said:
Is outer columns failing - a collapse in and of itself? Is that the actual collapse or the initiation of the collapse? If the floors pancake in a sequential progression from top to bottom, how can we define that as anything other than a pancake collapse? (that is... without escaping to the Land Of Dsytopia for a wonderful ride on the Doublethinkishpere of Psychosis)
Click to expand...

Everytime I see you use the word Doublethink, I'm going to remind you that you have been debunked in that regard.

When do you think the building started to collapse?

I think it started to collapse the moment the aircraft struck.

The key question is when did the "disproportionate collapse" start?
 
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gumboot said:
It's not a pancake collapse because the global collapse is not initiated by floor failure.

Isn't that kind of obvious?

-Gumboot
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Really carefully, explain what initiated the collapse. And, please don't hide behind a word as vague as, "fail." I don't wanna hear outer columns failed....because the floors are still attached to them. I also don't wanna hear transferring of loads - cus, guess what? The floors are still being supported by the outer columns...whoopsie.
 
28th Kingdom said:
Really carefully, explain what initiated the collapse. And, please don't hide behind a word as vague as, "fail." I don't wanna hear outer columns failed....because the floors are still attached to them. I also don't wanna hear transferring of loads - cus, guess what? The floors are still being supported by the outer columns...whoopsie.
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so what would you prefer besides fail? broke perhaps? how can we make this any clearer?

so when the out columns failed/broke/werent doing what they were suppose dto be doing and the floor were attached to them, what was supporting the weight of the upper sections of the perimeter columns?
 
I'm calling troll, folks.

If 28K can formulate his "propositions" clearly and with a reasonable command of the English language, then it is approaching probability 1 that he understands completely all that has been said to him on this subject by the hardworking skeptic researchers here. In short, 28K is just another chain-yanking troll. Alternatively, he's nuts.
 
28th Kingdom said:
Really carefully, explain what initiated the collapse. And, please don't hide behind a word as vague as, "fail." I don't wanna hear outer columns failed....because the floors are still attached to them. I also don't wanna hear transferring of loads - cus, guess what? The floors are still being supported by the outer columns...whoopsie.
Click to expand...

Why can't the outer columns fail with floors attached to them?

In fact, it was crucial that the floor trusses remain attached to the outer columns.

It was the sagging trusses that pulled the outer columns inward.

The load was transferred to the core columns by the hat truss system at the top of the building.

You do know what a Hat truss is?
 
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defaultdotxbe said:
such as claiming the word "progress" is unique to and indicative of a single mode of collapse

other callapses i suppose will regress, digress, ingress or egress, but certainly not progress
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"As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass." NIST FAQ 6

Let's not overlook facts for convenience sake, eh?

Main Entry: 1se·quence
Pronunciation: 'sE-kw&n(t)s, -"kwen(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin sequentia, from Late Latin, sequel, literally, act of following, from Latin sequent-, sequens, present participle of sequi

2 : a continuous or connected series[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
3 a : order of succession
 
28th Kingdom said:
"As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass." NIST FAQ 6

Let's not overlook facts for convenience sake, eh?

Main Entry: 1se·quence [URL]http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/URL]
Pronunciation: 'sE-kw&n(t)s, -"kwen(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin sequentia, from Late Latin, sequel, literally, act of following, from Latin sequent-, sequens, present participle of sequi

2 : a continuous or connected series
3 a : order of succession
Click to expand...
if you get anywhere near a point let me know
 
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