School Prayer debate

[cj.23]

Just an observation really. Whenever I read about American religion I encounter the "God was removed from school's in 1963: Bring back School Prayer" groups.

Yet does prayer in school actually lead to theistic belief? I attended an English state school, where religious observation, in the form of a school assembly and "corporate act of worship" is actually a legal requirement. I prayed every morning, afternoon and lunchtime with my class mates.

I also studied Religious Education (mandatory to 16), and continued with it to postgrad level.

Yet all these things did was render me an avowed atheist. It was many many years after I left school before I returned to my religion...

So if school prayer and religious education are in fact desirable from the viewpoint of proselytising, why is the UK so overwhelmingly secular compared with the US? I have asked this question repeatedly on Christian forums, yet never recieved a sensible answer. Any thoughts? England is a "Christian Nation", with an Establsihed Church. Does education in religion really serve the purposes of evangelism? Or is quite the contrary true?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, I'm still finding my ay round the forum and have not managed to master the search function yet. This is my first non-introduction post, so be kind!

cj x

 

[clarsct]

If you repeat something often enough, you will begin to believe it. This is why they have 'Our Fathers' 'Hail Marys' and the various hymns.

Besides, it violates the seperation of Church and State. I realize this annoys some religious folks to no end, but it's a basic and fundamental tenet of our(US) system of Government.

 

[blutoski]

Yet does prayer in school actually lead to theistic belief?

Who knows? But that's not the grounds for complaint. It's about the government favouring one religion over others.

When you were praying in your examples, did you have the opportunity to lead a Muslim prayer?

In the case of schools, the concern is that it will be an opportunity for the government to mandate a specific religion, and expose all kids to that one in particular.

As an example, even though I have always been an atheist, I was raised as a Catholic. When I was in grade six, I had a teacher who exercised her right to lead prayers (I'm Canadian - this was the '70s and it was legal but discretionary). My prayer ends with: "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, amen." The teacher explained to the class that I was praying incorrectly, and that the genuflection was not part of a proper prayer. She went on to teach us several Lutheran prayers, so we could do away with the incorrect ones we had learned at home.

Now, this was a real learning experience for my Muslim classmates, who were forbidden to use 'incorrect' prayers. Did they object? No, of course not: they came from third world countries like Iran where questioning the state official's religious rulings led to death. They learned to survive by letting the powerful authority have his day. I learned the same thing, as a kid.

But over the years, the injustice of this situation became self-evident, and the practice has been stopped in most democracies.

 

[cj.23]

If you repeat something often enough, you will begin to believe it. This is why they have 'Our Fathers' 'Hail Marys' and the various hymns.

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There is something fascinating occuring here.

cj x

 

[blutoski]

I should add that the successful lawsuits that were effective in getting prayer out of school were all involving students who were religious - just minority religions. Specifically, the biggest case was a Quaker girl.

In my friend's case, she and her parents launched a lawsuit in the '70s here in Canada, because she is Mennonite, and the Catholic teacher in her class was making the prayer mandatory. The problem is that her variety of Mennonite Brethren believe that prayer is a private event - not a public demonstration of devotion for, or in front of, others. Consequently, the teacher was forcing her - with the force of law - to do something that was sinful according to her own faith. The lawsuit did not see court, because by the time it had wound to the opportunity, my friend had moved to another school, the teacher had retired, and the law had been reversed anyway.

 

[cj.23]

Who knows? But that's not the grounds for complaint. It's about the government favouring one religion over others.

When you were praying in your examples, did you have the opportunity to lead a Muslim prayer?

In the case of schools, the concern is that it will be an opportunity for the government to mandate a specific religion, and expose all kids to that one in particular.

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

 

[blutoski]

Yet the evidence of a highly religiously educated (and in theory observant) nation suggests that in fact the absolute contrary is true: over sixty years of mandatory school prayer had produced an extremely secular society in England & Wales?

And we are, despite having an Established Church as part of the State, far more secular than the USA with the legal barrier between Church and State?

There is something fascinating occuring here.

cj x

I wouldn't say "fascinating"... There is actually an argument that the reason religion has succeeded in the US is explicitly because of the historical separation of church and state.

An extreme counterexample is Russia where the Russian Orthodox Church won exclusive rights to alcohol distribution. They are essentially an arm of the government. To the ordinary public, they are part of the oppression, not a source of salvation. Competing religions are ruled 'illegal'. It's perceived as a racket.

Whereas, in the US, any preacher with a two-dollar bible can start a church, and they use familiar marketing techniques to poach membership from existing parishes, expand, compete, or fail, according to a sort of market of 'religious ideas'.

 

[cj.23]

I wouldn't say "fascinating"... There is actually an argument that the reason religion has succeeded in the US is explicitly because of the historical separation of church and state.

(snip)

Whereas, in the US, any preacher with a two-dollar bible can start a church, and they use familiar marketing techniques to poach membership from existing parishes, expand, compete, or fail, according to a sort of market of 'religious ideas'.

I tend to agree... exposure to higher criticism of the Bible in RE lessons and studying other World Religions acted as a powerful force on my young thoughts. I questioned...

So in the face of this apparent lack of success, why do Christian groups campiagn for it so much in the US? My guess is they are simply unaware of how school prayer has panned out in the UK?

cj x

 

[blutoski]

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

Ah, now I understand your question... I don't think they believe it is indoctrinating. I think the motives are twofold:

1. It's a pushbutton issue for voter mobilization. Churches are important instruments for political action. Politician tells the priest that he'll mandate school prayer (or protect the existing situation, if school prayer is already mandatory) and the priest then goes on to tell the congregation to vote for Politician or face excommunication or expulsion from the church.

2. The situation you mention above regarding "opting out" and "segregated prayers" is not what American (or Canadian) theocrats are talking about when they advocate school prayer. They're saying they want the class to bow their heads in silence while the teacher reads the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer, reads a short passage from the King James Version, and explains to the kids why the Catholic Bible is different than the KJV (the reason: because Catholics are wrong about everything).

3. It's part of a bigger issue of taxpayer-subsidized religious training. Babysteps. Optional prayer, then mandatory prayer... bible study... mass...

What, exactly, this would look like would depend on the boundaries of the region being considered for voting. This is a point I bring up with my Mennonite friends when they advocate that the public education system should include bible study. Obviously, in a country which is majority Catholic, Mennonites wouldn't argue for a national vote on this. OK: in BC, the largest single religion appears to be Catholic still, so the voting region needs to be different.

At the end of the day, they seem to agree that it will have to go down to the school level (they used to say school district, but then the Abbotsford school district found itself in a predominantly Sikh population). Basically, they want the taxpayer to subsidize their private Mennonite schools.

 

[bruto]

Yes, we have the right to opt out of Religious Education and to pursue our own faiths without harassment. Our Jewish and Islamic kids had their own prayer areas and meetings. I agree that freedom to worship or not as one wishes is a vital issue, and dislike the idea of indoctrination. I do however feel that school prayer, based on the British experience, is a failure in terms of indoctrination. I'm not asking anyone to adopt it - I'm curious as to this strange paradox.

My central question remains - why would religious groups believe that school prayer is desirable in the face of a compelling lack of evidence it actually produces a more religious society, if the uK is anything to go by?

The most vocal advocates for school prayer are not otherwise noted for critical thought or intelligent evaluation of evidence, are they?

 

[Meadmaker]

In my opinion, the modern view of "separation of church and state" in the US has created a climate where fundamentalist belief can and will flourish.

In the US, the churches can claim persecution, and make it sound credible. Furthermore, the discussion of religion is taboo in US schools, except in highly limited circumstances. To educate anyone on the subject of religion, or on any subject related to religion, is to step into a legal minefield. It would be best just to avoid it, and almost all teachers do so.

The result is that children, all the way into adulthood, learn almost nothing about religion in schools. They end up becoming adults knowing only that Christianity is forbidden by the state. This creates a great deal of sympathy for Christianity, while making sure that no young person is actually taught anything of substance that might dissuade them from belief in Christianity.

 

[Foster Zygote]

One of the things that bothers me most is the claim by many religious advocates that "prayer is banned in schools". One way they mobilize their voting block is to imply that students are forbidden to pray in school. This is utter crap. If a student wants to pray before a test or before lunch or if a half dozen students want to assemble and say a prayer at the end of the school day or whatever, they are free to do that. What's illegal is for a faculty member or anyone acting as a representative of the school to lead students in any sort of "official prayer". This is done, as Blutoski pointed out, to protect individual rights from being imposed on by any one religion and to keep church and state separate for the protection of both. The U.S. religious right, however, appeals to the fear and ignorance of many by convincing them that government is attacking "their" religion. Sadly, there are those who don't see the value of protecting all individuals freedom of religion and freedom from religion. They, like Blutoski's teacher, see other beliefs as just plain wrong and they think they are doing God's work by imposing the "correct" faith on everyone. State religion sounds like a great idea to them as long as they get to pick the religion. For an enlightening shock you might want to look at these folks, who are right now (unsuccessfully, fortunately) trying to take over my own state of South Carolina.

P.S. Welcome to the forum cj.23

 

[cj.23]

Thanks Foster. Yes I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here. Unfortunately a few cases where confusion has led to the persecution of individuals engaging in private prayer (in contravention of the law, which as you say in no way forbids this) have become notorious, and are used by lobbyists to suggest widespread 'persecution'.

cj x

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Prayer out of schools? Not a chance!

I can assure you, that having had the lowest math grades (for a student not on drugs) in the history of Stuyvesant High School (noted for four Nobel laureates), there was a lot of school prayer in my life...every time I took a math test.

However, He didn't help much. I got a 39 on the final Math Regents, which was, as I say, the lowest grade the school had seen on the test from a student who was not stoned when he faced the test. I lost 10 points alone from one question for failing to write "Q.E.D." on the problem. I didn't write "Q.E.D." because I couldn't find an answer to the problem, and gave up in despair. Little did I know that "Q.E.D." was 10 points.

When I took the test on re-test that December, I put down "Q.E.D." on everything but the toilet paper. I got a 46.

The head of the Math Department (who outranked God) tried to transfer me to Automotive High School, on the grounds that people who could not do quadratic equations were only fit to repair his Cadillac. He and his colleagues heard two words from my mother, "Lawsuit" and "newspapers" and never heard the end of it from me.

So I don't know what all the fuss is. As long as kids face algebra tests, or chemistry tests, or physics tests (or history tests for those who think that the US fought North Korea in the War of 1812), kids will be praying in school.

I got a better idea...how about kids pray at home and with their families, or in churches and temples, according to the dictates of their conscience, not according to the determination of the government? What a concept!

 

[Foster Zygote]

Thanks Foster. Yes I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here. Unfortunately a few cases where confusion has led to the persecution of individuals engaging in private prayer (in contravention of the law, which as you say in no way forbids this) have become notorious, and are used by lobbyists to suggest widespread 'persecution'.

cj x

If a teacher were to tell a student "You can't do that. You can't pray in school. Stop that!" upon seeing her bow her head and fold her hands before a test then that teacher would be dead wrong and would be stepping on the rights of the student. However if one or more students stood up during class time and began praying out loud so that the teacher and all the other students had to stop what they were doing and wait the teacher would be justified in saying "You can't do that now. This is class time, please do that later". Either case would likely be seized upon by the most vocal propagandists as evidence that the big, bad government was trying to outlaw Christianity.

It's a crazy world.

 

[bruto]

I got a better idea...how about kids pray at home and with their families, or in churches and temples, according to the dictates of their conscience, not according to the determination of the government? What a concept!

A brilliant idea, which would work perfectly if the people advocating school prayer were honest about their motives. Unfortunately, as is so often the case where religious agendas are concerned, they are liars. They do not want to provide for their own children. They want to indoctrinate the children of others.

 

[SkeptiKilt]

In my opinion, the modern view of "separation of church and state" in the US has created a climate where fundamentalist belief can and will flourish.

In the US, the churches can claim persecution, and make it sound credible. Furthermore, the discussion of religion is taboo in US schools, except in highly limited circumstances. To educate anyone on the subject of religion, or on any subject related to religion, is to step into a legal minefield. It would be best just to avoid it, and almost all teachers do so.

The result is that children, all the way into adulthood, learn almost nothing about religion in schools. They end up becoming adults knowing only that Christianity is forbidden by the state. This creates a great deal of sympathy for Christianity, while making sure that no young person is actually taught anything of substance that might dissuade them from belief in Christianity.

Right you are, MM, and in addition, I think that the lack of an established religion here has led to more competition amongst the various sects for the hearts and minds of the sheeple. Looking at the percentage of believers in Europe vs. the USA, it would appear that there's an argument to be made for the free market.

 

[cj.23]

Right you are, MM, and in addition, I think that the lack of an established religion here has led to more competition amongst the various sects for the hearts and minds of the sheeple. Looking at the percentage of believers in Europe vs. the USA, it would appear that there's an argument to be made for the free market.

Well an argument for religion yes.

The facts are simple: School prayer has a dismal record in producing Christian belief in the UK.

So the Religious Right in the US might be better fighting for keeping prayer out of schools? (my point in the OP)

cj x

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Exactly right...

A brilliant idea, which would work perfectly if the people advocating school prayer were honest about their motives. Unfortunately, as is so often the case where religious agendas are concerned, they are liars. They do not want to provide for their own children. They want to indoctrinate the children of others.

The advocates of prayer in school are interested only in converting all the kids to their religion. It's not about morality, it's about conversion numbers, followed by tithing and donations.

 

[cj.23]

The advocates of prayer in school are interested only in converting all the kids to their religion. It's not about morality, it's about conversion numbers, followed by tithing and donations.

I'm sure that is the case. I question their tactics effectiveness...

cj x