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Time for skeptics to grow up?!

But I do think you've oversimplified the matter by suggesting that dann remove poverty from the discussion as a key factor.

Nah. All I said was that dann was trying to claim moral superiority and that granting that would be sheer folly. Obviously, the economics of the situation belong in a more holistic discussion of the problem but that's not what dann said. Note the title of the thread: "time for skeptics to grow up?" Also note the underlying message that skeptics should not talk about woo crap if the woo crap is part of a larger problem. (Like, what isn't?)

Your indication that dann is taking moral high ground feels paranoid. I don't see that he does.

Your problem, not mine. If you can psychoanalyze people from what they write in a few lines on the web, perhaps phone psychiatry is next for you. Lotsa money in it!

I apologise for the use of my colloquial 'mate', as it seems to have upset you.

Overly familiar and too soon.

Discussing the fact that labelling kids as witches is detrimental is fine, however to dismiss the influence of poverty is narrow minded.

No, it just signals a narrower discussion than you and dann are willing to let the rest of us have. Why don't we consider the weather in this as well? (Bad weather leads to poor crops, leading to famine.) How about the interplay of religions in the area. (Perhaps the witchcraft thing is a natural reaction by a sect reacting badly to an encroaching sect that does not believe in witches.) It could go on and on.

The issue is more complex than being just about superstition; it's also about the reasons superstitious belief exists in such communities in the first place.

[sarcasm on]Really? I thought these things just popped out of nowhere! :eek: I'm so glad that you and dann have made me see the light! [sarcasm off]

I'm at a loss to see where 'moral outrage' comes into it. The fact that skepticism often over simplifies the issue is not a moral judgement, but a practical one.

The moral outrage aspect is what dann is trying to do to the discussion about the burgeoning prepubescent witch population in the Congo. All in all, I see that you've distilled our disagreement to the ageless conflict between holism and reductionism. If so, relax. Reductionism won a long time ago.

Well, your juvenile approach is noted. What was that you were saying about discussing this without emotion? Hmm...

Thanks. I usually get juvenile when told I can't talk about something because I'm not a good enough human being.

I've got quite a bit of experience in education in different parts of the world, including in impoverished, collectivist communities of remote Australia. So I am speaking from a position of experience and expertise, and not just of speculative opinion. And what I described as education is what often happened in the past; government and private (often missionary) imposed education programs often failed to make an impact as a direct result of a rejection by the community.

Merely because it happened in the past does not mean I'm going to swallow the shallow and false description of education you posted earlier. That is why I says to myself, I says. "thing, dis guy don't know wat edjicashun is awl about, he don't!" But, as always, you respond to tell me that what you wrote is not what you meant. So be it.


Athon, you go ahead and worry about the what the water buffalo is thinking. The statement in the JREF was that people who label kids as witches are ignorant fools and I fully back it. It matters not whether they're poor or rich. If you and dann want to say it's OK for adults to do this to kids because they're starving, that's your prerogative. Don't expect me to agree with you. And don't expect me to be apologetic about it either.

End of discussion. Go join your friend who likes to argue via smilies.
 
Your problem, not mine. If you can psychoanalyze people from what they write in a few lines on the web, perhaps phone psychiatry is next for you. Lotsa money in it!

Total loss as to what you're implying here. It applies more to your analysis than mine; you seem to read into his claim as being 'holier than thou' stance...

Overly familiar and too soon.

I don't know if this was humour or not. I laughed anyway.

No, it just signals a narrower discussion than you and dann are willing to let the rest of us have. Why don't we consider the weather in this as well? (Bad weather leads to poor crops, leading to famine.) How about the interplay of religions in the area. (Perhaps the witchcraft thing is a natural reaction by a sect reacting badly to an encroaching sect that does not believe in witches.) It could go on and on.

Only if you're willing to be absurd.

Discussing what influences the poverty is irrelevant in the face of the fact the inargubale fact that poverty in this situation exists, and the arguable fact that it is is directly linked with the need for superstition to flourish in such a society. Just discussing the influence of poverty in this situation is suffice to understand the impact of superstition.

[sarcasm on]Really? I thought these things just popped out of nowhere! :eek: I'm so glad that you and dann have made me see the light! [sarcasm off]

This has added nothing to the discussion, other than to demonstrate some condescending attitude. I don't see how it furthers your point.

The moral outrage aspect is what dann is trying to do to the discussion about the burgeoning prepubescent witch population in the Congo. All in all, I see that you've distilled our disagreement to the ageless conflict between holism and reductionism. If so, relax. Reductionism won a long time ago.

Again, this is meaningless rhetoric. You seriously don't seem to have a point other than the fact your panties are in a knot about dann allegedly taking high moral ground against skeptics. If that's the case, take a deep breath and walk away.

Either you agree that poverty is intrinsically linked with superstition or it's not, and you have something to say on that matter. From all indication you seem to feel it's the latter, yet have little to say to back this up.

Thanks. I usually get juvenile when told I can't talk about something because I'm not a good enough human being.

??

Merely because it happened in the past does not mean I'm going to swallow the shallow and false description of education you posted earlier. That is why I says to myself, I says. "thing, dis guy don't know wat edjicashun is awl about, he don't!" But, as always, you respond to tell me that what you wrote is not what you meant. So be it.

Ok, maybe somebody else can articulate better what Slimething is saying here. I'm happy to admit it might be me... but I seriously have no idea what his/her point is.

To have education imposed in a social group which lacks the basic infrastructure to make use of it has been shown to fail in the past for a number of reasons. This is neither a shocking nor a complicated statement. How you can possibly take it personally is mind boggling. What definition of education are you having a problem with?

Athon, you go ahead and worry about the what the water buffalo is thinking. The statement in the JREF was that people who label kids as witches are ignorant fools and I fully back it. It matters not whether they're poor or rich. If you and dann want to say it's OK for adults to do this to kids because they're starving, that's your prerogative. Don't expect me to agree with you. And don't expect me to be apologetic about it either.

Please show where I have said that it is ok for adults to do this to children.

End of discussion. Go join your friend who likes to argue via smilies.

Discussion? I must have missed that part. Usually I'm presented with some form of material to discuss, but you seem to enjoy creating a straw man to get upset over more than discussing any real points.

Athon
 
It is well known that much of these unwanted children are born of rape--moreover, religion has made birth control and abortion nearly impossible to get. Moreover, it's religion that has blocked concerted efforts to raise awareness about aids and condom usage in this country--another factor that contributes to orphaned children and poverty.

It's nice that Catholic charities is taking in these kids, but it's the ignorance they spread that is directly implicated in the problem. The quickest way for any group of people to get out of poverty is by spreading knowledge and access to birth control. I do not agree with the OP--I do not think poverty is a major cause for child abandonment...it's superstitious thinking that is the cause for these children's abandonment--and unwanted children allowed to proliferate due to such thinking promoted by the religions who offer "charity" to these people.

If those missionaries wanted to stop child abandonment, then they ought to provide information and access to condoms. Moreover, they ought to teach those kids that faith based notions are superstitious notions, and there's no such thing as demons, devils, possession, or eternal souls that can suffer damnation. But I guess that would be against their "religion".

I side with Randi on this point.
 
If it makes you sleep better at night knowing that it is a simple case of good and evil, of blame and effect, then I guess it serves a purpose. Mind you, trying to unweave the issue and see it for what it is in an effort to better address it might actually have better results.

Sure, in my view the act is morally incomprehendable. I couldn't imagine what it would take to abandon my child. But when all is said and done, I'd feel better considering some way of changing the situation, instead of sitting back and feeling good about myself that I am better than they are.

I ask you which would have a better chance of changing the situation -- smugly labelling them as evil, or seeing how poverty and superstition are linked and discussing ways that superstition could be removed from such a community?

In my opinion, some skeptics do need to decide whether they are proactive and want change, or are merely satisfied with being moral judges of society.

Athon
 
I do not think poverty is a major cause for child abandonment...it's superstitious thinking that is the cause for these children's abandonment-
You do indeed think so, but please read the article and think again:
How children get stigmatized
Many of the children at the center are like Frida Tshama. Orphaned at the age of 1, taken in by her grandmother and later, an aunt, Frida is a typical 13-year-old: bubbly, rambunctious, talkative. But when asked why she was thrown out of her house, two months ago, she gets teary and quiet.
"I was staying with my aunt, and one day I was cleaning the house, and a glass that was on the table fell and broke," she says. "My aunt asked me to get out of the house. If I stay, she will poison me."
For months, Frida survived by selling oranges in the Matete market, but came to the center a few weeks ago. An attempted reunification with Frida's family failed. Frida's grandmother said that Frida had stolen from her aunt. Her son-in-law said that if she took Frida back, the entire family would reject both Frida and the grandmother.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1130/p12s01-woaf.html

I could be wrong, but I don't see any signs of superstition in this excerpt from the article in the CSM. The aunt threatened to poison her niece because she accidentally broke a glass. No witchcraft, no superstitious excuses.
-and unwanted children allowed to proliferate due to such thinking promoted by the religions who offer "charity" to these people.

If those missionaries wanted to stop child abandonment, then they ought to provide information and access to condoms. Moreover, they ought to teach those kids that faith based notions are superstitious notions, and there's no such thing as demons, devils, possession, or eternal souls that can suffer damnation. But I guess that would be against their "religion".
You are probably right about "those" Catholic missionaries in general and their attitude to condoms, but what does it have to do with the problem described in the article? Apart from the fact that you want your notions to be the solution.
I side with Randi on this point.
He usually makes more of an effort than you do, however.
 
I should probably just add one small thing here, that just occured to me.

I can't vouch for certain for what their version of 'witch' might translate into exactly, yet I do know that the mix of missionary teaching and traditional belief in some Pacific island communities results in a situation where any time something ill strikes the community, they believe that a vindictive ancestor has returned to punish their family. Typically the family is shunned by the community until they make good with their ancestor and appease them with blessings and food.

From what I know of the situation in Africa, a witch is somebody who communes with evil spirits. Hence any misfortune facing the family or community is blamed on a witch. There was a case in the UK a couple of years ago where an African immigrant family accused their child of being a witch, and beat her.

Same superstition is being used to justify bad things happening, and in each case the superstition arises in a strict collective community. However, the action taken on each case seems to vary. I speculate that the more severe the conditions faced by the community, the more severe the action will be following the superstitious belief.

Athon
 
This is a much better analysis:
J.Randi said:
Rehabilitation of a witch
(...)
As expected during times of stress – particularly wartime – the public was turning to the supernatural for information, and so, apparently, were authorities who should have known better.
http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-12/121506russell.html#i10

But this time it is about England 60 years ago, and it does not explain Tony Blair :), nor does it have a condescending title like Time to grow up.
 
You do indeed think so, but please read the article and think again: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1130/p12s01-woaf.html

I could be wrong, but I don't see any signs of superstition in this excerpt from the article in the CSM. The aunt threatened to poison her niece because she accidentally broke a glass. No witchcraft, no superstitious excuses.
You are probably right about "those" Catholic missionaries in general and their attitude to condoms, but what does it have to do with the problem described in the article? Apart from the fact that you want your notions to be the solution.
He usually makes more of an effort than you do, however.

This is the last sentence of the article: "Ifaka hears these stories and shakes his head. "Yesterday, the African family would fight to keep their children," he says. "Now, they are throwing them away."

So throwing kids away due to them being seen as witches is a new thing even though poverty is a very old thing. I think that the Christian Science Monitor may believe that poverty is the problem--but poor people in most cultures seem to make their children work when they are impoverished--not accuse them of being witches. Of course the bible says you can turn out witches and it was used as an excuse to kill many a woman for over 1500 years... but the bible is a book of superstition. Moreover, it is the Christianization of these people that makes them have children they cannot afford--because the missionaries teach abstinence not birth control. I think they owe it to the people to take in surplus children when their doctrine is part of the problem.

And even if poverty was the problem (which you've provided no evidence for and lots of cultures have been very poor) -- the quickest way to make a group of people more prosperous is to facilitate family planning and birth control. As population growth decreases, prosperity of nations increases. You are finding confirmation for what you want to believe, not for the facts presented.
 
You are finding confirmation for what you want to believe, not for the facts presented.
Apparently you are.
Let us start with your beginning:
This is the last sentence of the article: "Ifaka hears these stories and shakes his head. "Yesterday, the African family would fight to keep their children," he says. "Now, they are throwing them away."

So throwing kids away due to them being seen as witches is a new thing even though poverty is a very old thing.
No, believing in witches is a very old thing, this extent of poverty isn’t! Where do you get your “so” from?
CSM: Peace has brought its own challenges, as refugee families flow into the capital, Kinshasa, and find they cannot feed themselves. Out of survival, many are using witchcraft as an excuse to expel their most vulnerable members: children.
"Witchcraft has been there for a while, but it was never used against children in the past. Families that have old people used to accuse that old person of being a witch, when they were no longer productive," says Javier Aguilar, a child protection officer for the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) in Kinshasa.
I don’t get it! Is this quotation so hard to understand? Don’t you see it at all? Or do you deliberately choose to overlook it? Don’t you read the whole article? Do you just read the last sentence?
And what about this?
CSM: Congo's desperation
Only desperation could force families to cast children into the streets, and, as a nation, Congo is one of the most desperate places in the world. With 80 percent of the population earning less than $1 a day, Congo has one of the poorest populations on the continent.
Only desperation, it says, and I tend to agree! So much, actually, that I suspect the CSM of being responsible for the stupid title that the journalist probably would not come up with. I don’t have any hard evidence to back up my suspicion, however.
You continue:
I think that the Christian Science Monitor may believe that poverty is the problem-
The CSM appears to know that this is indeed the case, but it prefers to believe that witchcraft and superstition is the problem, which is why it comes up with the stupid title:
CSM: In Congo, superstitions breed homeless children
-but poor people in most cultures seem to make their children work when they are impoverished--not accuse them of being witches.
That is true – to some extent: In some cultures, i.e. the very poor ones, people sell their children to work in factories or even as sex slaves. That depends on the kind of buyers they find and on the kind of money they may bring. Sometimes working, begging, stealing or doing ‘campaign work’ -
CSM: In every marketplace, children are busy, sweeping up stalls, carrying water and soda for sale, shining shoes. They are also prime recruits for gangs engaged in theft, and during the recent election campaign that ended Oct. 29, street gangs were used by political parties to cause civil unrest, pelting cars with stones and burning tires.
- hardly brings in enough to even support the ‘working’ children themselves – let alone leave a rest to provide for the other members of the family, and having them work in the house or in the fields is an option that depends on the usefulness of that sort of work. If you don’t have any fields or if you yourself don’t have a job and an income, there are a very limited number of dishes you can have your children do.
But you would rather talk about superstition, wouldn’t you?
Of course the bible says you can turn out witches and it was used as an excuse to kill many a woman for over 1500 years... but the bible is a book of superstition. Moreover, it is the Christianization of these people that makes them have children they cannot afford--because the missionaries teach abstinence not birth control. I think they owe it to the people to take in surplus children when their doctrine is part of the problem.
I am not sure that I understand your but, but you are, of course, right when you say that the Bible is superstition. You seem to be very sure, however, that the problem you have in the USA with teenage pregnancies and Christian fundies teaching abstinence is exactly the same problem they have in Africa. In that case, of course, you would be right about the Catholics being part of the problem and thus owing it to the children with children to take care of them. I, however, would not be happy to see these children left in the care of that kind of people, i.e. to give the Christians this extra opportunity to teach them their superstitious gospel …
And have you considered that if you haven’t got enough to eat, you probably don’t have enough money to buy a condom to protect yourself from both AIDS and teenage pregnancies, i.e. that poverty, and not superstition, could be the problem again? The article in CSM only tells us that teenage pregnancies seem to be a problem among the children living in the streets:
CSM: The government responded to the violence by rounding up street children in the hundreds. The move provoked an outcry from child advocacy groups - among those arrested were 87 young women with babies of their own -
And another one:
CSM: Sometimes he (one of the homeless children. dann) thinks of joining an older sister, who, like him, was thrown out onto the street by their grandparents. But she now has children of her own, fathered by another street teen.
But let’s get back to your own words:
And even if poverty was the problem (which you've provided no evidence for and lots of cultures have been very poor) -- the quickest way to make a group of people more prosperous is to facilitate family planning and birth control.
I base my argument primarily on what the article itself tells us! You don’t, so where is your evidence? Why do you think that facilitating ”family planning and birth control” is ”the quickest way to make a group of people more prosperous”, and not the other way around: that prosperity tends to facilitate family planning? (Unless you happen to be a very rich church, that is.) I would very much like to see your evidence! But I think that what is happening here is simply that
You are finding confirmation for what you want to believe, not for the facts presented.
And that is not the skeptical way of doing things, is it, articulett?! Or is it the Darwinist, Dawkinsist and Randi-ist way after all???
 
ROFL.

Maslow's Hierarchy needs a new level above Self-Actualization. We can call it Skeptical Atheism. :)
 
Well, you can all try to end the homelessness problem in the Congo by teaching the Congolese that there's no such thing as witchcraft. Assuming this works (which, of course, it won't but let's play make-believe), I suppose it's supposed to follow that without the excuse of witchcraft, none of these kids will be "put out" (again, we're pretending here - keep up), so the families will stay together and happy while they split their monthly pound of grain five ways instead of four, and they all become even more emaciated and susceptible to illness than they would've been, and they all end up dying sooner.

Or, we could try to feed these people, and make families healthy and self-sustaining to the point where they don't need any excuse - witchcraft or otherwise - to throw anybody out just to keep themselves alive.

Something tells me that this - not moral high ground, or anti-skepticism, or being a superstition-lover - was dann's original point, way back then.
 
Was and still is, Joshua. Thank you!

ROFL.

Maslow's Hierarchy needs a new level above Self-Actualization. We can call it Skeptical Atheism. :)
The "Darwinist, Dawkinsist and Randi-ist" way refers to articulett's profile. I would probably be more of a Stephen Jay Gouldist, Richard Lewontinist and Marxist myself, i.e. I don't want to put down the essence of Darwinism or Atheism. It's just that sometimes people of this persuasion appear to be more than a little right-wing biased, unable to see that conditions for poor people don't necessarily improve if they succeed in persuading them to become Social-Darwinists like themselves - and not because the poor people are inferior to the elitist skeptics in a Darwinian sense of the word.
And that is a pity since the poor people are the only relevant victims of religious superstition and thus addressees of educational work about this theme. Who cares which delusions Blair, Bush and their rich friends might suffer from in private? Who cares if the FBI have a machine which does not help them discover refugees hidden in a container or another one that cannot tell them who is lying or not?
Well, I know who does, but I don't ...
 
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Was and still is, Joshua. Thank you!
It was also bloody obvious, right from the OP.
I am amazed by some of the personal attacks and the evasions in this thread; the whole point was so easily gained, and that is immense poverty breeds self-serving justificatory "superstitions"; i.e., beliefs meant to legitimize practical actions. Therefore, in such situations, poverty is the problem rather than "superstition". Maybe some skeptics really do need to grow up, if they can't easily grasp such a simple point.
I would probably be more of a Stephen Jay Gouldist, Richard Lewontinist and Marxist myself,
Tsk, but I forgive you. It IS possible to be in the middle.
 
The mistake was made when people weren't reading the OP in depth, and assumed that this was just another thread whining about how intolerant "skeptics" are. Some people, including skeptics, don't like to be accused of being intolerant. They'll admit to being so, and (often rightly) justify their intolerance by insisting that whatever it is they don't tolerate is harmful or dangerous; nevertheless, "intolerance" is a negative buzzword that nobody likes associated with them.

Of course, the OP had nothing to do with intolerance, it was about setting priorities straight - and it was correct, in my opinion.
 
And what kind of -ist would that be? :)
A sensible-ist? :)

Seriously, there are big big problems with the Rose/Lewontin school, just as the Dawkins/Dennett school has its own different problems. Both can be heavily influenced by ideology, though the Rose/Lewontin is noticable for its heavyhanded overt (and often maladroit) ideologising, while Dawkins/Dennett is more a question of unconscious biases and (also sometimes maladroit) lack of thought at times.

I'm none too fond of set positions or toeing the party line anyway; while I try to be as active as possible, I steer clear of identifying myself too much with one flag or the other.
 
...Some people, including skeptics, don't like to be accused of being intolerant. They'll admit to being so, and (often rightly) justify their intolerance .....
Apart from that, in a parallel example, I've noticed a growing trend to
(Self-)Righteous Intolerance among some atheists elsewhere; an overt crusade of intolerance, justifying itself with much cant and sermonising.

And before anyone tries getting on my case, I'm an atheist.
 
(btw, just what IS the illusion of happiness? How is it different than REAL happiness?)

It's a No True Scotsman fallacy. "Well they might think they're happy living a life of sin, but they don't know real happiness without the love of Christ in their lives."
 
It's a No True Scotsman fallacy. "Well they might think they're happy living a life of sin, but they don't know real happiness without the love of Christ in their lives."
Did you take a look at this?
dann said:
This is the link to the programme on CNN Go down to: Web Extras --> The Power of Laughter.
But see for yourself/-selves: Do they seem happy to you?
By the way, there are some Indians and Americans, but no Scotsmen, I think! :)
 

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