Hamas gunmen hit new low ... even for them

[SteveGrenard]

Where does your quote say Hamas are fundamentalists?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Is the following true? .... also, from the Brussels Journal article cited above:



Speaking of Imam Abu Laban:

He has earlier tried to implement sharia practices in Denmark. In one prominent case, two men were killed in a row involving a group of second generation immigrants in Copenhagen. According to Imam Abu Laban the thirst for revenge could be cooled if 200,000 kroner in “blood money” were paid to the victims’ families. The 200,000 Danish kroner is approximately the value of 100 camels, the stipulated sharia price for a Muslim man’s life.

This killing was not pre-meditated murder but could be bought off under Shari'a.

 

[CFLarsen]

Five per cent of the population of Denmark are muslims. This may not sound like much to you but based on reproductive rates and continued immigration this can significantly increase in a decade.

Where do you have that number from?

Is the following true of not?

You gullible fool. Just because a few bozos "declare an Islamic state" in Nørrebro doesn't make it so.

I suggest

I suggest you start providing some facts to back up your claims.

How many of these people are there currently in Denmark?

How fast do they reproduce?

When will they have reproduced to more than 50% of the population?

Where you get the notion that a group has to be 50% or more of a larger group in order to be a threat is ridiculous.

I'm not talking about them being a threat. I'm talking about them being able to dictate what laws there should be in Denmark. That requires a majority.

Where does your quote say Hamas are fundamentalists?

You don't think Hamas are fundamentalists? What, precisely, is your definition of a "fundamentalist", and why doesn't it apply to Hamas?

Is the following true? .... also, from the Brussels Journal article cited above:

It is "true", as in Abu Laban has said it. So? Abu Laban is a known liar here.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Where do you have that number from?

Kaare Quist, a journalist at the Danish daily Ekstra Bladet, who has been reporting on the story for a number of weeks, says the group found a number of highly placed officials in the Arab World keen to listen to its message. Quist told SPIEGEL ONLINE they included representatives of the Arab League, Egypt's grand mufti and other high-level officials. The trip the group made, Quist believes, helped to raise attention to the political cartoons in Jyllands-Posten and prejudices against Denmark's Muslims. some 270,000 of Denmark's 5.4 million population are Muslim, making up 5 percent of the population.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,398624,00.html

You gullible fool. Just because a few bozos "declare an Islamic state" in Nørrebro doesn't make it so.

If you say so, it's your city.

I suggest you start providing some facts to back up your claims.

I provide references. You provide ad homs. If my sources are incorrect feel free to dispute them but provide references to back up your counter claims.

How many of these people are there currently in Denmark?

Right this minute? According to the above 5.4 million.

How fast do they reproduce?

Predictably not nearly as fast as the 270,000 muslims living in Denmark.Set your priorities properly on the argument instead of asking questionswhich are not only not relevant but which are deceptive. The problem is how fast do muslims reproduce compared to indigenous Danes. You do
the math.

When will they have reproduced to more than 50% of the population?

Again, it doesn't take 50% of the population to be a threat. [see below also]

I'm not talking about them being a threat. I'm talking about them being able to dictate what laws there should be in Denmark. That requires a majority.

If you honestly believe they are concerned about dictating the law legally in Denmark you are more naive than I thought. A relatively small number, saya few hundred thousand, can have a significant impact on a much larger population, especially a naive, extremely liberal one which will turn the other cheek rather than impose the death penalty on those who perpetrate acts of terroristic violence causing death in order to get their way. Terrorism by definition is a small number controlling a large number through fear, intimidation and acts of violence.

You don't think Hamas are fundamentalists? What, precisely, is your definition of a "fundamentalist", and why doesn't it apply to Hamas?

I don't know that they are. I have never seen this term used for them. They have been characterized as a terroristic political party, not fundamentalists. Some may be fundamentalists, others may not be.

It is "true", as in Abu Laban has said it. So? Abu Laban is a known liar here.

If you say so. His words are reported not because they may or may not be true but because of what they portend. If you don't think it is possible to buy off a victim's family with blood money, a common practice under Shari'a , so be it.

 

[SteveGrenard]

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/da/popula.html

Denmark

0.34% (2005 est.)

Birth rate:
11.36 births / 1,000 population (2005 est.)

Death rate:
10.43 deaths / 1,000 population (2005 est.)

Net migration rate:
2.53 migrant(s) / 1,000 population (2005 est.)

Some additional euro stats:

In Brussels, Belgium, the most popular name for baby boys is now Mohammad. Sustaining the population of a nation requires that on average each couple gives birth to 2.1 children. The average European couple now has fewer than 1.4 babies, compared to 3.6 babies born to the average Muslim immigrant couple in Europe. Across Western Europe 16 to 20 percent of babies are being born into Muslim families.
· In France at least 12 percent of the population is already Muslim, the fruits mostly of immigrants from former French colonies in North Africa. If present birth trends continue, by 2030 a quarter of France’s people will be Muslim, more than enough to determine who controls the national parliament and executive. As this columnist recently noted, the nuclear-armed French military is already 15 percent Muslim. Adjacent Switzerland is now 20 percent Muslim.
· The German newspaper Deutsche Welle days ago reported that Germany’s birth rate in 2005 fell to a level lower than at the end of World War II, to a “historic low,” more than fifty percent lower than those of France and Great Britain. But at a meeting this week in Berlin that brought together the interior ministers of six European nations, Germany’s leftwing Social Democrats continued to oppose the application of any test or standard that would restrict who could migrate into Germany.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/denmark.html

 

[CFLarsen]

some 270,000 of Denmark's 5.4 million population are Muslim, making up 5 percent of the population.

Fascinating. However, completely unreliable, because nobody knows. You see, even though we have a precise population register, it is illegal to register people's religion.

I provide references. You provide ad homs. If my sources are incorrect feel free to dispute them but provide references to back up your counter claims.

You provide crappy data to back up your xenophobic propaganda.

Right this minute? According to the above 5.4 million.

Of these people you are talking about. All 270,000 Muslims are covered by this?

They are not interested in the multi-culturalism espoused by liberal European governments and the U.S. which allows them a place in those societies in the first place. If they had a choice and when they become large enough they will kick the multiculturalists in the butt and turn their societies into islamic states. This game plan has been proven elsewhere, notably in Africa and Asia. If they get tired of waiting they resort to violence, conversion to islam at the point of a gun.

All of them?

Predictably not nearly as fast as the 270,000 muslims living in Denmark.Set your priorities properly on the argument instead of asking questionswhich are not only not relevant but which are deceptive. The problem is how fast do muslims reproduce compared to indigenous Danes. You do the math.

No, Steve: You do the math.

Again, it doesn't take 50% of the population to be a threat. [see below also]

You didn't just say they would be a threat. You claimed that they would take over. How can they do that, if not by a majority? By violence?

If you honestly believe they are concerned about dictating the law legally in Denmark you are more naive than I thought. A relatively small number, saya few hundred thousand, can have a significant impact on a much larger population, especially a naive, extremely liberal one which will turn the other cheek rather than impose the death penalty on those who perpetrate acts of terroristic violence causing death in order to get their way. Terrorism by definition is a small number controlling a large number through fear, intimidation and acts of violence.

This sounds exactly like the Nazi propaganda about the Jews.

Steve, you have absolutely no clue what the situation in Denmark is like. We have a right-wing government with one of the harshest anti-immigration policies in Europe.

I don't know that they are. I have never seen this term used for them. They have been characterized as a terroristic political party, not fundamentalists. Some may be fundamentalists, others may not be.

What, precisely, is your definition of a "fundamentalist", and why doesn't it apply to Hamas?

If you say so. His words are reported not because they may or may not be true but because of what they portend. If you don't think it is possible to buy off a victim's family with blood money, a common practice under Shari'a , so be it.

Nowhere have I said it wasn't possible. Are you going to take any wacko's comment and start crying wolf? Is that really the best you got?

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/da/popula.html

Do you read your own sources??

Religions:
Evangelical Lutheran 95%, other Protestant and Roman Catholic 3%, Muslim 2%

In Brussels, Belgium, the most popular name for baby boys is now Mohammad.

The 20 most popular first names for boys and girls, and 20 most popular surnames.

Not a single Muslim name to be seen.

Keep up your xenophobic rantings, Steve. They are most revealing.

 

[The Atheist]

These are very sick people and need to be destroyed no matter how fervently they rationalize their position.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1841622006

These are very sick people and need to be destroyed no matter how fervently they rationalize their position.

November 8, 2006 · Israeli artillery fire kills 18 Palestinians, including at least 7 children, in the Gaza Strip early Wednesday. The shelling on Beit Hanoun came less than 24 hours after Israeli forces ended a ground offensive in the area.

You ok with that, Steve? An eye for an eye, an atrocity for an atrocity, destruction for destruction?

If not, you're just being a racist.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It isn't a slippery slope at all. If you emulate your opponent and even make a point out of it, what makes you different from him?

Context, purpose and discretion? That is rampant hypocrisy: Oh, we can do it, because our context is valid, we are allowed using means that justify our end...but we should do it so nobody notices...

Thanks, Larsen, the name calling raises its head yet again from the Ivory Tower, and so you have just (nonsensically, and I don't think you meant to) equated the street thug attacking with a knife to the belly with a surgeon opening a person's stomach with a scalpel. Purpose. Context. They differ.

So, to justify your response, which is not up to your usual standards, you then break out the default reply, the argument against using judgment to resolve ethical conflicts: "You didn't agree with me, you are not a good an absolutist who can only adhere to a rule, you must be a hypocrite."

Thanks, Larsen, for so beautifully illustrating why I find the Ivory Tower a slum, not a penthouse.

DR

 

[SteveGrenard]

These are very sick people and need to be destroyed no matter how fervently they rationalize their position.

November 8, 2006 · Israeli artillery fire kills 18 Palestinians, including at least 7 children, in the Gaza Strip early Wednesday. The shelling on Beit Hanoun came less than 24 hours after Israeli forces ended a ground offensive in the area.

You ok with that, Steve? An eye for an eye, an atrocity for an atrocity, destruction for destruction?

If not, you're just being a racist.

I am absolutely opposed to a religion that espouses a legal system that CALLS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY FOR WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED, MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE GAY, BLASPHEMERS, PEOPLE WHO CHANGE RELIGIONS OR CONVERT TO ATHEISM, WOMEN WHO GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN OUT OF WEDLOCK, WOMEN WHO MARRY WITHOUT THEIR FATHER'S PERMISSION ....

The escalation/de-escalation cycle of violence between Israel and Palestine is deplorable. No, I am not in favor of it. I am also opposed to a substate of unregulated pro-Hamas militias running around Gaza killing their own people including targeting three children, I say again: TARGETING three young Palestinian children on their way to school as a pre-meditated political assasination.

If you are in favor of that you are not a racist, you are a sociopath.

 

[SteveGrenard]

duplicate/error

 

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard
Quote: In Brussels, Belgium, the most popular name for baby boys is now Mohammad.

Is what I quoted, not even wrote, but quoted.


To which Larsen replies:

The 20 most popular first names for boys and girls, and 20 most popular surnames.

Not a single Muslim name to be seen.

Keep up your xenophobic rantings, Steve. They are most revealing.

With an unidentified link that takes you to a website where every single one of the most popular family names ends in -SEN and has nothing whatsoever to do with Belgium or my quote. This ihas got to be the most disingenuous bit of propagandizing I have ever seen except for the Nazi reference just above it. Larsen this is lying, plain and simple and it seems nobody does it better than you.

For anyone who wants to researchthe statistic for BRUSSELS-BELGIUM which was what was in my quote/cite.

http://statbel.fgov.be/figures/d22a_nl.asp?r=8

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless of what the old data in the CIA Factbook says about religions in Denmark, simply
answer the question:

Are there 270,000 Muslims in Denmark today? Somebody must know and if its illegal to know this then you can't answer. I understand. I will stick with my source. I didn't dream the number up, somebody else came up with it and it was cited.

Are there 5.4 million people living in Denmark today? Somebody knows this and I am sure it isn't illegal to know this.

If as you say it is illegal to know how many muslims live in Denmark then how did the CIA Factbook obtain this old data? Did they send secret agents to Denmark to find this out?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen wrote:

This sounds exactly like the Nazi propaganda about the Jews.

So you are saying now that a relatively small segment of the German population, the Nazis, did not control, oppress, rule and send to the camps a much larger group of Germans? That this relatively smaller group (Nazis) did not obtain and sustain power through violence and the gun?
Until our fathers, well mine (my generation's) for sure, had to go over there and take them down.

It sounds like you are buying into Hitler's Mein Kampf lament and sales pitch that German jews were oppressing non-Jewish Germans? Is this what you are saying now? Is it the Nazi propaganda to which you refer that justified their small (Nazi) group to ignite the holocaust?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen:

Nowhere have I said it wasn't possible. Are you going to take any wacko's comment and start crying wolf? Is that really the best you got?

You still dont get it. We hear the same rhetoric from multiple sources. The blood money concept is well known, it even came up recently in the case of the British soldier jailed in Pakistan for 8 years and sentenced to death for killing his driver in self-defense (He was exonerated by a secular court and sentenced by Shari'a). It was widely reported a blood money payoff to the family could have set him free. Finally, as you may recall, Musharref pardoned him and he hightailed it back to the UK. This was after pressure exerted on Pakistan by Prince Charles, Tony Blair and others in the UK.

So again, it doesn't matter if he is a whacko. I am sure you are right and he is a nut. But what he says is said by other nuts as well and it just takes a whole bunch of nuts to cause a problem. So while you don't have to believe them and shouldn't, you have to weigh what these whackos say and take them seriously. Many of history's troublemakers were whackos.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard

Again, it doesn't take 50% of the population to be a threat.

Larsen: You didn't just say they would be a threat. You claimed that they would take over. How can they do that, if not by a majority? By violence?

Of course they would take over. How have they demonstrated they take over now? Have you been watching the situation in the greater horn of Africa? Or in Indonesia? How does any small group of fanatics subjugate and obtain power over a larger group? Have you learned nothing from history or current/recent events?
Violence. When the larger group is unarmed and unprepared to fight, thesmaller group which is well armed and prepared to fight, even kill, is able to take over. Again you are being naive. I understand where you are coming from but what you haven't been doing is watching the situation with shariatization and islamization of world geography elsewhere. You can call this xenophobia but I would disagree. Foreigners who assimilate into a society, or even those who don't but who do not force their religious or cultural practices on their host country, are usually welcome. Consistently, by example, this has not been the case with islam.

Right now I have some muslims as neighbors. They send their children to our public schools, they talk to their non-muslim neighbors and they do not force their religion or their culture on their non-muslim neighbors. They know that in this city at least, right now, it would be fruitless and counter productive to do so. My fondest wish for them is that they and their children happily assimilate into this society and adopt it as their own. The Borg may have a point on some level. But elsewhere in the world I read daily that this is not the case.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen:

Steve, you have absolutely no clue what the situation in Denmark is like. We have a right-wing government with one of the harshest anti-immigration policies in Europe.

Do you agree with your government's policies then?

 

[The Atheist]

I am absolutely opposed to a religion that espouses a legal system that CALLS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY FOR WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED, MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE GAY, BLASPHEMERS, PEOPLE WHO CHANGE RELIGIONS OR CONVERT TO ATHEISM, WOMEN WHO GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN OUT OF WEDLOCK, WOMEN WHO MARRY WITHOUT THEIR FATHER'S PERMISSION ....

So, what you are saying is that people whose religion specifies differing penalties from the religion which your own country's laws are based upon should be destroyed.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[SteveGrenard]

No Larsen, I am not in Denmark and therefore I do not know first-hand what is going on there vis a vis the immigration problem or the muslim problem which you seem to imply is not a problem at all. But for sure Claus I am not going to reply on your spin alone for that information. If the sources, some official Danish government statistical siites, are incorrect then as I said before, please dispute them but do so with more than rhetoric and provide references that suport your counter claim:

However, part of the problem is also due to the mentality of some of the Muslims who move there, yet display no loyalty to their new countries. Immigrant men who divorce their wives according to secular law, but stay married to them according to sharia, Islamic law, represent an increasing problem in the city of Odense, Denmark, according to Erik Simonsen, deputy major in charge of administration. The result is a large number of "single" women who receive welfare support. From other countries, it is known that some Muslim men to do this trick with several women at the same time. Some observers blamed the Muslim riots in France in 2005, accurately described by writer Mark Steyn as the "first welfare funded Jihad in history," on polygamy practiced by Muslim men, paid for by French taxpayers. But also immigrants who are financially independent are cheating, says Simonsen. "80 percent of the immigrant economy in Odense is a black market economy. That's a lot, and it cannot be tolerated, because the law is equal for all."


In 2005, it was reported that 82 percent of crimes in Copenhagen were committed by immigrants or descendants of immigrants, and the police pressed charges against second-generation immigrants five times as frequently per capita as against ethnic Danes. Doormen working in the Danish capital are now often armed with guns or clubs so as to be able to defend themselves against violent immigrant gangs. There is more violence than ever before and some immigrant gangs have even been known to seek out doormen at their private homes. Immigrant criminal gangs are much more active than previously believed, and their brutality has them surpassing biker crime gangs like the Hell's Angels or Bandidos, the State Police said.

If you go the site below you will find links buried in the above text that allege to support the statistics for Denmark given above:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011958.php

 

[SteveGrenard]

So, what you are saying is that people whose religion specifies differing penalties from the religion which your own country's laws are based upon should be destroyed.

Thanks for the clarification.

Not the people, the religion. Muslims, of course, would destroy people who do not convert to Islam. They consider apostasy equivalent to treason.

When it comes to people being destroyed or if you prefer, executed, then I am in favor of the death penalty for those found guilty of pre-meditated murder, beyond any reasonable doubt. A reliably obtained and voluntary confession also works for me. The 8 or 9 pro-Hamas militiamen who TARGETED AND KILLED the three Palestinian children being dropped off for school last Monday fall into this group. And if an American soldier does this, I also support the death penalty for him as well. And if an Israeli soldier does this as well ... targets and kills innocent children, I similarly support they be arrested, tried and if found guilty, then be executed.

My own country's laws and the secular laws of most if not all of the world's secular states do not call for the death penalty for adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, out of wedlock child birth, homosexuality, elopement ... how many times do I have to repeat this list when responders prefer to ignore it? Shari'a is not one country's secular law, it is a trans or pan-national set of religious laws that is often substituted for a a country's secular set of laws. If some country wants to fine people for chewing gum and we don't do that in my country, I do not want their law changed.

This has everything to do with the reasons Shari'a courts will put people to death or cut off their arms and legs or gouge out their eyes and has nothing to do with the rest of a state's laws. It only involves the basis for capital punishment and corporal punishment (flogging, enculeation and amputation)and nothing to do with the rest of the law which calls for fines, prison sentences for violations muslims consider are lesser crimes than adultery or homosexuality, and yes, killing.

"Thou shalt not kill" does not distinguish between a premeditated act of murder and causing a death in self defense or by accident so therefore anyone tried under Shari'a for killing another can also be killed. The amazing thing about the combatants in the middle east is the ease by which they exempt themselves from punishment under their religious laws. It is one of the world's greatest hypocracies. And which is why I do not consider them fundamentalists ...to answer Larsen's assertion that Hamas should be characterized as a fundamentalist group. They are a criminal terroristic group and now a so-called political party.

Shari'a is a barbaric anachronistic tool used to impose religious, biblical or koranic edicts on a population. As an atheist I am opposed to that. Atheism has no hope if atheists can be summarily executed by order of a Shari'a court, and it can and has been done. So be careful what you wish for and be careful for what you act as an apologist (="defender of") for.

 

[The Atheist]

So be careful what you wish for and be careful for what you act as an apologist (="defender of") for.

I didn't bother reading the whole post as a quick scan didn't reveal anything new.

Steve, you're a one-trick pony and no mistake - Islam, Islam, Islam, point, Islam, Islam, Islam....recurring

Instead of sitting at your keyboard arguing with unter, why don't you go to Iraq and join in the fight against Islam? It would be so much more satisfying for you - instead of typing endless anecdotes about the evil of Islam, you could be shooting real, live Islamists!

 

[SteveGrenard]

Well I gave you the courtesy of reading and responding to your post. If you cannot discern or are willing to listen to rationales that is your problem. The amazing irony of this is that the islamic law you defend, Shari'a and its related text in the quaran, bible and hadiths, would have no problem executing you because of your screen name.

Have a nice day and good luck.