This is the thread that may very well change the way you look at 9/11 FOREVER!

[Mashuna]

Maybe if answers were forthcoming, questions wouldn't be repeated.

 

[maccy]

9/11 is a crime..if this went to trial...what is the one thing you MUST have in order to convict someone? MOTIVE! Does the government have a motive here? Did they or could they have benefited from the events of 9/11 and if so, how?

There is a little think tank called PNAC (Project for a New American Century) which has many of it's members in key positions of the Bush administration, including VP Dick Cheney and SOD Donald Rumsfield.

So what is the PNAC, anyway? Well, it's basically a well laid out plan, for how the members of PNAC would like to see America transform itself in this new century. THE PNAC, clearly states this:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor."

So, basically...they are saying that in order for America to get to the place where they want to see it...the transformation would either take many many years...or they could get what they want immediately if there was a new Pearl Habor like event.

SO WHY, than I ask...WHY would a New Pearl Harbor event help them get what they want? They are even admitting that a 9/11 event will give them what they want...but does that make sense? How can a tragedy like 9/11 help expedite their transformational vision of the New America? You tell me.

So, now...if they took OBL to court...what would be the motive for him committing 9/11? Well, what were we told by the president himself for why they attacked us? THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM. So, why then...as a direct result of 9/11 does the American government take away virtually all of our rights and liberties via the Patriot Act? (You'll have your naked bodies video taped and permanently saved on files at airports soon enough) Isn't that kind of giving the TERRORIST what they want? Um, yea it is....you know why?

They're right - the terrorists do hate us for our freedom (because it takes away from their control and power - how?) the only thing is that....the terrorists ARE THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT THEMSELVES!

Aside from the fact that you're just doing this because you can't answer the questions you been faced with so far.

And aside from the fact that you're misrepresenting PNAC and the Patriot Act (and why do you care when you live in Manchester, England?).

Aside form those things, why frame OBL? Why invade Afghanistan? Why were the hijackers mainly Saudi Arabian? Why not make them Iraqi?

Why no false flags framing Iraq before the war? Why none framing Iran? Or North Korea? Or France?

Oh and I'm going to repeat my post about the Patriot Act as it serves to reinforce why this CT nonsense is anti-politics and actually supports stuff like the Patriot Act

Well, I always thought the issue with the Patriot Act was government espionage and individual privacy rights. It makes no additional provisions for detaining anybody.

Looking a bit closer, it seems I was right. Here are some resources:

This seems like a good place to start: http://www.citizenjoe.org/node/211

It's also one of the few places I found that included details of the changes imposed by congress before the Act was renewed.

There's a wikipedia artcle but it's a bit of a mess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

Some overview and assessments of the 2001 version of the Act:
Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2087984/
ACLU: http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html
Electronic Privacy Information Center: http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/

Most importantly, I'd say is that the changes made to the Act since it was first passed and the various ongoing challenges indicate that 9/11 doesn't give Bush carte blanche to pass laws. The fact that the Republicans no longer control Congress just underlines it. The CT fantasy is a fantasy of powerlessness it posits 9/11 as the magic wand that gives the President absolute power. The fantasy is that the only way to defeat the evil government is to expose 9/11 as an inside job. This will happen magically when enough people "wake up" and "see the truth", in the meantime though there's no point in campaigning on anything else, just keep chasing the grail. I think this Counterpunch article describes this attitude well:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw11282006.html

CTists don't want to change the the Patriot Act because they love the fantasy of being oppressed. However, anybody genuinely concerned about it should join the ACLU's campaign http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/

Because people bothered to engage with the real world rather than sitting behind their computers and whining, some progress has been made:

Since the Patriot Act was first debated and passed, we’ve made tremendous progress. Thanks to your efforts, the White House was unable to secure the rubber stamp reauthorization and expansion of the Patriot Act it had hoped for. This debate over the need to protect our most fundamental freedoms laid the foundation for the public's rejection of the president's abuses of power, including the warrantless NSA program to spy on Americans. Now, more than ever, Americans are aware of the Bush administration’s reckless policies, and they are speaking out.

The Truth Movement's contribution to all this?

 

[Architect]

I did address that spammer about floors collapsing from fires...NIST couldn't replicate floors collapsing due to fires...IN ANY OF THEIR EXPERIMENTS!! THAT'S THE ANSWER!

"That spammer". Heheheheh. Pot meet kettle.

Your memory fails you. YOU claimed that floors could not collapse due to fire action alone and quoted NIST. I provided you with two highly detailed papers by Edinburgh and Sheffied Universities - both acknowledged experts in structural and fire engineering, especially Sheffield - complete with calculations, yield charts, the full bhoona.

You have ingored these complete. The reason? I think WE all know.....

 

[chillzero]

Hey! Unfair on us Scots!

Unless he's from Edinburgh, in which case sod'em all.

Well, I am very sorry, but my ex was scottish, not Edinburgh, and very definitely a conspiracy loon. (I use the term 'loon' in the colloquial affectionate scottish sense )

The language and the approach to 'discussion' are just so familiar, that I keep feeling as if it must be him. There couldn't possibly be 2.... ??

 

[Flo]

Whoever decides to write the exact same thing more than three times .

does so because you've never answered their questions.

is a TROLL and a SPAMMER...

writes the guy who's writing the same non answers, non arguments, over and over again, and has copied and pasted the same (looooong) garbage in at least two different threads.

and you go on my ignore button instantly

Of course. It's so much easier to try to look like you're holding the moral high ground than actually addressing the questions (and proving conclusively that you don't know what you're talking about - note that we've all realised it around your 2-3rd post ...)

 

[chillzero]

I'm pretty sure that 28th is in Manchester and just gets a thrill out being here and trying out new personalities.

You know - this actually increases the likelyhood that it is him.


... ummm..... maybe this is something I should have kept under wraps? Much more embarrassing than my 'psychic' past!

 

[Porkpie Hat]

So you're all claiming this is molten slag:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2271/thermiteut7.jpg

Do you know what that implies? That implies the torch melted the steel from the column...THAT'S ONE SLOPPY JOB...DON'T YOU THINK!? Besides...the column doesn't look deformed to me...looks like the black gook is on top of it...shouldn't the edges of the column, where it's supposedly melted...be distorted? They look pretty straight to me.

That is such an obvious torch cut 28th. If you look closely you can see the notches that we in the metal trades call beaver teeth (here in Canada anyway). It is a sloppy job, but no one expects anything otherwise as the cut itself was not done with joint preperation in mind.

 

[JimBenArm]

And, just so all of you know...this bit about proving the molten metal pouring from WTC 2 can be proven to be therma/ite based upon it's behavior...is something I CAME up with. THAT'S MY OWN ANALYSIS. Have you ever heard it put this way before? SO PLEASE don't say I just take junk from CT websites...and paste it here. I reviewed all of the available data, and then I DREW my own conclusions. I use to side with the governments theory...but after using all of my wits and logic...I can't deny the truth. 9/11 IS AN INSIDE JOB.

Well, there's your problem! Trying to use what you don't possess!

I can't believe how egotistical you are! You, all by yourself, with not a lick of real training and real-world experience, came up with this all on your own? When all the engineers and scientists in the world who do this for a real-life living (try it sometime, it does wonders for your self-esteem) couldn't?

And you think we're delusional?

Again, I say, what a maroon!

Oh, before I forget; I thought you were taking your football and going home. So why haven't you, already?

Mock you later!

 

[Architect]

does so because you've never answered their questions.

writes the guy who's writing the same non answers, non arguments, over and over again, and has copied and pasted the same (looooong) garbage in at least two different threads.

Of course. It's so much easier to try to look like you're holding the moral high ground than actually addressing the questions (and proving conclusively that you don't know what you're talking about - note that we've all realised it around your 2-3rd post ...)

Well said!

 

[twinstead]

28th kingdom, your little ideological rants may work wonders and get you all sorts of slaps on the back from your mates down at the pub, but presented to people who actually know what they are talking about all they will get you is laughter.

I'm aware this must be frustrating for you. The only solution is to stick with the pub and whatever conspiracy forums you probably frequent; preaching to the choir seems to be your only forte.

It is horribly obvious that you are not qualified to discuss this subject with people with relevant knowledge. It's not something to be ashamed of, rest assured, as long as you can admit it.

 

[maccy]

You know - this actually increases the likelyhood that it is him.


... ummm..... maybe this is something I should have kept under wraps? Much more embarrassing than my 'psychic' past!

Does his first name begin with P and was he born in 1976?

Is he enthusiastic about Alex Jones?

 

[JimBenArm]

So you're all claiming this is molten slag:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2271/thermiteut7.jpg

Do you know what that implies? That implies the torch melted the steel from the column...THAT'S ONE SLOPPY JOB...DON'T YOU THINK!? Besides...the column doesn't look deformed to me...looks like the black gook is on top of it...shouldn't the edges of the column, where it's supposedly melted...be distorted? They look pretty straight to me.

One sloppy job? Why, yes, your presentation is.

Let me turn that around. If you were using a cutting torch (bit of a reach, I know), and involved in a rescue operation, would you worry about how the cut looked? Or would you be more concerned with, you know, just getting it done as quickly as possible?

We now return to our regularly sceduled mocking.

What a maroon!

 

[28th Kingdom]

I ignore them....because who are they anyway? If they disagree with what the government said...whoopsie - I mean with what NIST says...than they're an idiot. NIST can't be wrong...that would mean that 300 experts are wrong...that would mean NIST are murders...that would mean things I can't even think of to type right now...but surely it would just be that you're an idiot.

Always believe what criminals tell you, okay? That is the most pragmatic thing to do. You don't believe the US Government are criminals? They destroyed evidence at a crime scene:

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

Source - leading authority magazine on Fire Engineering. Enslaved blacks for 400 years...had unequal rights for woman for how long? I thought one of the fundamental principles of America is FREEDOM and equal rights? Do you not see the glaring blasphemy.

Wake the hell up. It's NOT the American people that are the problem...they are, for the most part...good people...it's their leaders that are evil...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER empire in the history of the world.

The American government would never hurt and/or use innocent people within it's own country for their own agendas, right? Ever heard of the Tuskegee Experiment?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

 

[Timble]

Whoever decides to write the exact same thing more than three times is a TROLL and a SPAMMER...and you go on my ignore button instantly.

You could find yourself talking to yourself while everyone else talks about you points and laughs if you did that.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

I ignore them....because who are they anyway? If they disagree with what the government said...whoopsie - I mean with what NIST says...than they're an idiot. NIST can't be wrong...that would mean that 300 experts are wrong...that would mean NIST are murders...that would mean things I can't even think of to type right now...but surely it would just be that you're an idiot.

Always believe what criminals tell you, okay? That is the most pragmatic thing to do. You don't believe the US Government are criminals? They destroyed evidence at a crime scene:

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

Source - leading authority magazine on Fire Engineering. Enslaved blacks for 400 years...had unequal rights for woman for how long? I thought one of the fundamental principles of America is FREEDOM and equal rights? Do you not see the glaring blasphemy.

Wake the hell up. It's NOT the American people that are the problem...they are, for the most part...good people...it's their leaders that are evil...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER empire in the history of the world.

The American government would never hurt and/or use innocent people within it's own country for their own agendas, right? Ever heard of the Tuskegee Experiment?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

I have two questions for you.

1) What happens when you mix a test tube baby with a stool sample?
2) Can I call you Peanut?

 

[Timble]

The American government would never hurt and/or use innocent people within it's own country for their own agendas, right? Ever heard of the Tuskegee Experiment?

Yes we can google too. It's an absurd argument that because there was unethical behaviour there, then 9/11 is a conspiracy by the government.

There's a bit of a leap of faith there isn't there?

 

[JimBenArm]

You could find yourself, talking to yourself while everyone else talks about you points and laughs if you did that.

That's what's going on, anyway. Might as well just have fun with him. At least then, he's of some value, even if it is only as entertainment.

 

[einsteen]

The bigger the lie, the more it is believed.

I don't belong to a person who thinks 100s of scientist are part of a conspiracy or something like that, but each institute has a director......, since this 9/11 event is utter complex everyone just is a specialist in one particular piece of the puzzle. If you do a search for 'collapse' in the big bunch of NIST pdfs you will find thinks like

'possible collapse'
'probable collapse'
'collapse hypothesis'
'collapse initiation'
'global collapse then ensued'

However you will not find a paper like Greening's one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[maccy]

I ignore them....because who are they anyway? If they disagree with what the government said...whoopsie - I mean with what NIST says...than they're an idiot. NIST can't be wrong...that would mean that 300 experts are wrong...that would mean NIST are murders...that would mean things I can't even think of to type right now...but surely it would just be that you're an idiot.

Always believe what criminals tell you, okay? That is the most pragmatic thing to do. You don't believe the US Government are criminals? They destroyed evidence at a crime scene:

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

Source - leading authority magazine on Fire Engineering.

From an article published in January 2002. Fire Engineering doesn't have an issue with the evidence now, or with the NIST report. You've already been told this.

Here's a load of resources that include stuff about the steel that was kept for analysis:

Just to fill out the picture, here are a few engineers who don't go along with the conspiracy theory.

Such engineers are incredibly easy to find on the web, which raises the question of why the conspiracy theorists can't find them:

[SIZE=-1]Where can I find engineering studies concerning the World Trade Center that refute the claims that it was demolished by bombs or "controlled demolition?"
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_execsum.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Structural_Fire_Response_and_Collapse_Analysis.pdf
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/4/30_APwtc.html

Where can I find engineering studies that offer evidence that structural steel from the World Trade Center was collected for analysis?
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery.htm#recover
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Structural_Fire_Response_and_Collapse_Analysis.pdf
http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/WTC_apndxD.htm

Where can I find evidence that refutes the claim that World Trade Center Building 7 was "pulled" down intentionally by some official order?
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html

Where can I find engineering studies concerning the Pentagon that refute the claims that it was hit by a guided missile?
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/pentagon.php
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/phase1/
http://www.asce.org/responds/

More information:
http://architecture.about.com/library/weekly/aawtc-collapse.htm
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/wtc.php
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/structure.php
http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/021104.asp
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/Fire.html
http://www.asce.org/pdf/3-6-02wtc_testimony.pdf
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php#why
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/resources.html
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/
[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]More links to real engineers refuting conspiracy theorists:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php
http://space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/wtc_science_010919.html
http://www.teachersdomain.org/6-8/sci/engin/systems/collapse/
http://mcleon.tripod.com/WTC1.htm
http://www.hera.org.nz/PDF Files/World Trade Centre.pdf
[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]YET MORE:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1540044.stm
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/news/wtc/wtc.html
http://www.newhaven.edu/show.asp?durki=1185
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/aibs_2002_wtc.pdf
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-12/su-sed120301.php
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2001/december5/wtc-125.html

An article from the Journal of Engineering Mechanics:
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JENMDT000128000001000002000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

Here's a colloquium of engineers discussing the fall of the WTC towers. They're all too dumb to see the bombs:
http://mae.ce.uiuc.edu/Outreach/Conferences/wtc.htm

A collection of essays by researchers at MIT:
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/

A bibliography of analyses of the collapse:
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/wtc/wtctragedy.html#Analysis%20of%20Collapse

Architecture Week on the engineering forensics of the collapse:
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1017/news_1-2.html
[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Oh, what the heck. Here's some more...

On WTC7:
http://www.americanlaboratory.com/articles/al/a0212mar.pdf
http://www.rit.edu/~smo5024/papers/wtc/
http://212.204.44.125/WTC/wtc----the-construction/great_buildings_wtc/WTC_GBO.htm
http://www.architectureweek.com/2002/0515/news_1-1.html
http://southerncrossreview.org/41/9-11.htm
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/ncst/Final NCSTAC 2004 Report to Congress.pdf
http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/wtc/wtctragedy.html
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/december5/wtc-125.html
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/011119fa_FACT
http://www.ncsea.com/articles/seerp/wtcseerp.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline02/0502feat.html
http://mceer.buffalo.edu/publications/wtc/02-SP08/default.asp

In this article, the author, Anne Elizabeth Powell, describes in detail how civil engineers quickly mobilized and led the efforts to evaluate not only the performance of the structures involved in the two assaults but also the vulnerability of the nation's infrastructure to future attacks in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon:
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline01/0111feat.html

This Web site provides a summary of seismic observations, including seismogram traces of the two impacts and three collapses at the WTC (including those of the twin towers as well as that of the adjacent building, WTC-7):
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

This report presents results of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's (NASA's) Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) remote sensing data and interpretations that mapped the distribution and intensity of thermal hot spots in the WTC area on September 16 and 23:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0405/ofr-01-0405.html[/SIZE]

Enslaved blacks for 400 years...had unequal rights for woman for how long? I thought one of the fundamental principles of America is FREEDOM and equal rights? Do you not see the glaring blasphemy.

Wake the hell up. It's NOT the American people that are the problem...they are, for the most part...good people...it's their leaders that are evil...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER empire in the history of the world.

The American government would never hurt and/or use innocent people within it's own country for their own agendas, right? Ever heard of the Tuskegee Experiment?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

Blah blah blah blah. The world is against you on this. What have you done to change things? Hung around on a skeptics' forum that you can't stay away from? Repeated yourself and avoided thinking or learning?

Pathetic.

 

[28th Kingdom]

How'd they plant everything with out no one noticing? Larry Silverstein the owner is in on the attacks...he owed the building...which means he had full access to it...Bush's brother was a principal for the company (Securacom) who did security on the WTC.

Are the WTCs residences? No...office building...do you think all of those companies were 24 hours? No...thus, they could have easily pulled off all the work at night, when everyone was gone.