Creationists falsely using the Dr. title at online book retailers

[Questioninggeller]

I finding it troubling that Amazon.com allows people without accredited doctorates to promote themselves as a "Dr." This gives a false legitmacy that these people are an authority on a subject like science.

For example, Kent Hovind is listed as "Dr Kent Hovind" (here) at Amazon.com even though his "doctorate" is in "Christian education" from Patriot University an unaccredited correspondence school that was ran out of some guy's home without any known credentials or any faculty.

Businesses like Amazon.com need to responsible when selling creationism videos and text (or Hovind's "college courses" on video) from this non-Dr types.

 

[RSLancastr]

I would assume that Amazon's response to this would be along the lines that it would be impossible for them to verify the degrees of every author of every book they sell, so they just go by what the publisher says.

It's like the time I complained at a book store because one of David Icke's books was in the "History" section of the store. I was told that the store doesn't pick the book's category, the publisher does. The store just puts it on the shelf accordingly.

Aggravating, but ultimately, understandable.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I sometimes help recatagorize books in my local library and bookstore by switching them from "Science" to "Science Fiction".

 

[thomps1d]

I was told that the store doesn't pick the book's category, the publisher does. The store just puts it on the shelf accordingly.

Aggravating, but ultimately, understandable.

And that could lead to a whole lot of fun. I happen to be starting a publishing company this spring. We're going to be making role-playing games primarily, but I suppose I could make an exception for reprinting the Bible and classifying it as fiction.

ETA: On topic, I could definitely understand Amazon taking the position that they can't follow up on the credentials of every single one of potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of different authors. And even if they could, then they'd have to justify denouncing a person's degree just because it came from a degree mill, and I can't see a private bookseller wanting to get into that kettle of fish.

 

[Thinktoomuch]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You might be interested in this little pearl I found and already quoted in another thread:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The University Of Metaphysical Sciences is a non-profit organization under
Universal Church Of Metaphysics 501(c)3
which is registered as a non-profit corporation in both states, California and Wyoming, USA [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The University Of Metaphysical Sciences, offering courses in metaphysical studies is a program of The Universal Church Of Metaphysics. It is the part of the ministry that allows us to give the public inexpensive access to metaphysical concepts and metaphysical training for professional work in this growing field. Ministerial licenses for those who obtain the Masters degree are granted by The Universal Church Of Metaphysics. The University Of Metaphysical Sciences grants metaphysics degrees based on the metaphysical nature of the church, which is a specialized area of religion[/FONT]

My comment there (apologies for quoting myself!) was:

"If you want to live in a libertarian society that does not discriminate on the basis of the BS one teaches, where the State does not take responsibility for the quality of accreditation and anybody can call himself Doctor without being prosecutable for false pretences, you have to accept its less palatable side also."

My comment is based on experience in a different environment. In Italy, historically as a result of the unification of umpteen little States in 1861, later arguably supported by the nationalistic principles of the fascist period, education is a national asset for which the State pays and takes responsibility. Doctorates are conferred by the Republic of Italy, on the recommendation of the University were you studied, which needs to meet national standards in order to obtain funding. Calling yourself Doctor (of anything) without having a doctorate (of anything) is an offence. Of course, some faculties achieve world recognition, others, well....

Disclaimer: this was true 30 years ago, it might have changed now with the EU, private funding etc. I have not checked.

So, solutions exist. Is this one too fascist for your tastes? I still like it.

 

[Zep]

I seem to recall something similar here in Australia. I think it was more along the lines of a "registery" of properly acredited and awarded degree holders, against which bona fides could be checked. It is held by and across the various conferring universities here. But I haven't been a doctoral candidate (one day...), so I must check this...

 

[Garrette]

I was told that the store doesn't pick the book's category, the publisher does. The store just puts it on the shelf accordingly.

Did you check to see where Randi's books are shelved? I have trouble believing that his publishers suggest placing his books in the New Age section.

 

[JJM]

The bottom lines is- you have to evaluate claims, not claimants. Federal or state accreditation of a degree can mean nothing more than the institution has the facilities that it says it has, and it is financially solvent. There is at least one accredited school of astrology. There are also accredited schools of chiropracty and naturopathy.

On top of that, the "quality" of a degree says little about the degree-holder. Uber quack Andrew Weil got his MD at Harvard. Nuff said.

As for verifying credentials, on occasion I have been asked to do that regarding claimed doctorates, where the school and dissertation title were not known. There is a dissertation clearinghouse and a couple times I checked and found no record. A few weeks ago I ran my own name- no record. In my case, I knew the title and (sure-enough) it's there (with my name spelled correctly). I have to contact them to get that fixed.

 

[Thinktoomuch]

Did you check to see where Randi's books are shelved? I have trouble believing that his publishers suggest placing his books in the New Age section.

Makes sense to me, from a marketing point of view. If skepticism = non believing in "wide interest something", categorising it as "wide interest something (contrary opinion)" is likely to be the most effective in targeting potential buyers. I can't think of a better way, can anybody?

 

[Thinktoomuch]

I seem to recall something similar here in Australia. I think it was more along the lines of a "registery" of properly acredited and awarded degree holders, against which bona fides could be checked. It is held by and across the various conferring universities here. But I haven't been a doctoral candidate (one day...), so I must check this...

Sorry, mate but having spent the second half of my life in Oz and raised three kids here, I believe that our country has not got to square one yet as regards education. Every time somebody makes a timid suggestion that education and health are really national issues, six tinpot States and two Territories scream murder of their "independence". The whole country is 20m people, for **** sake! Our saving grace, although it pains me immensely to admit it, is that English is the Latin of our age... God save the Internet!

 

[TsarBomba]

I mean really, if you are going to buy the book, you are going to buy the book. Maybe I should start calling myself "Doctor." Maybe have it printed on my business cards. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[Zep]

Sorry, mate but having spent the second half of my life in Oz and raised three kids here, I believe that our country has not got to square one yet as regards education. Every time somebody makes a timid suggestion that education and health are really national issues, six tinpot States and two Territories scream murder of their "independence". The whole country is 20m people, for **** sake! Our saving grace, although it pains me immensely to admit it, is that English is the Latin of our age... God save the Internet!

You are talking about primary and secondary education, and I agree whole-heartedly - they need to be federalised, and a consistent and high national standard imposed.

However we are actually talking about degree accreditation in this thread, which is a tertiary education issue. In which case the recognised universities do indeed keep a national register of some sort of academic records and conferred degrees, etc. And without confirming the details yet, I do believe it is an offence of some sort to claim to have a qualification (from a particular institution?) you do not actually have, and also for a non-accredited organisation to confer degrees (but not "diplomas" or "certificates"). I think...

It's been a while since I worked in academia...I'll check!

 

[Thinktoomuch]

Hi Zep, thanks for following up.

Yes, my comments were mainly related to primary and secondary, however I do not see any disadvantage in a national government taking formal responsibility for maintaining the standards of universities. I am sure that some is going on anyway by wielding the funding stick, but I am not aware of a specific policy to this purpose.

As regards offences, my understanding is that what you say is correct in the context of "false pretences", that is if one says to be a graduate from ANU, ANU can sue him/her if it is not true, and if an institution states that it is accredited and it is not, Consumer Affairs etc. will unload the proverbial ton of bricks.
On the other hand, if there is no intent to defraud, (which would make it a criminal offence) I understand that anybody here can call him/herself whatever s/he wants. Plenty of people have whinged that my Italian degree is really equivalent to a Master, not a PhD (which is not totally false but is not true either: I have an Aussie MBA and know what is what) but none of the many lawyers I have worked with has even remotely suggested that I can not call myself Doctor. But again, maybe this works in some States and not others... I look forward to your update.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Unfortunately, Dr. Anagnostopoulos is taken.

~~ Paul

 

[ponderingturtle]

You are talking about primary and secondary education, and I agree whole-heartedly - they need to be federalised, and a consistent and high national standard imposed.

However we are actually talking about degree accreditation in this thread, which is a tertiary education issue. In which case the recognised universities do indeed keep a national register of some sort of academic records and conferred degrees, etc. And without confirming the details yet, I do believe it is an offence of some sort to claim to have a qualification (from a particular institution?) you do not actually have, and also for a non-accredited organisation to confer degrees (but not "diplomas" or "certificates"). I think...

It's been a while since I worked in academia...I'll check!

I think this partialy depends on what kind credentials you are claiming. claiming to be a lawyer or a medical doctor, would certainly be illegal, as would claiming to be a certified engeneer or anything else that has more than just getting through school to be part of its qualifications.

But claiming to have a doctorate in biology, well that his very different, and it is hard to say that it has the assumptions of fraud that say pertending to be a medical doctor would.

 

[drkitten]

The bottom lines is- you have to evaluate claims, not claimants. Federal or state accreditation of a degree can mean nothing more than the institution has the facilities that it says it has, and it is financially solvent.

Um,.... this is an oversimplification to the point of a lie.

First, there is neither "Federal" nor "State" accredidation of degrees -- neither the United States nor any of the individual states are involved in the accredidation process.

What realliy happens is the US Department of Education maintains a list of approved "accreditors" whose stamp of approval (which means, among other things, that students can take out federally-financed loans for tuition there). For general education purposes, the accreditors are regional -- for example, universities in New York State are accredited (or not) by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools; California is handled by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. "Regional accreditation" includes a lot more than just "has facilities and is solvent."

For specialist training, "national accreditation" is available, but again, this is done by separate special interest groups. For example, programs in nursing are accredited (nationwide) by the National League for Nursing. The American Bar Association accredits law schools. The AMA (and the AAMC) accredit medical schools. There's some woo in there -- for example, the "Council on Naturopathic Medical Education" accredits schools of "naturaopathic medicine," whatever that is.

But there is no recognized board that could accredit a "school of astrology."

Of course, nothing prevents you from claiming to be the "National Astrology Education Board" and claiming to offer worthless "accreditation certificates." But any schools to which you give those certificates will still not be "accredited" until/unless the US DoE recognizes your group.

 

[JJM]

Originally from JJM:
The bottom lines is- you have to evaluate claims, not claimants. Federal or state accreditation of a degree can mean nothing more than the institution has the facilities that it says it has, and it is financially solvent.

Um,.... this is an oversimplification to the point of a lie.

First, there is neither "Federal" nor "State" accredidation of degrees -- neither the United States nor any of the individual states are involved in the accredidation process.
...
But there is no recognized board that could accredit a "school of astrology."

“Accreditation Commission Approves Astrology School”
http://www.csicop.org/list/listarchive/msg00269.html

Is the Astrological Institute in Scottsdale, Arizona, a Leo or a Virgo? The school received its new nationwide accreditation from the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology (ACCSCT) earlier this month-an apparent first in astrology.[snip]
Commenting on the Astrological Institute's accreditation in a recent Associated Press story, Judith Eaton, who heads the Council for Higher Education Accreditation in Washington, DC, said that the accreditation does not validate astrology, but only recognizes that the school fulfills its promises to students.

[Bold added] I suppose I could have worded my original more carefully.

Also note that there are accredited schools of naturopathy and chiropractic. Once again, accreditation is no promise of validity.

 

[JJM]

Astrology School
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1128108
“The Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges of Technology has granted accreditation to the Arizona-based Astrological Institute. Students following their stars and hoping for a career in astrology will now be eligible for federal grants -- and a little respect.”
[Bold added]

ETA: If my wording about federal accreditation was sloppy, the bottom line is that this means federal recognition of accreditation. [Further edited to correct spelling.]

 

[rwguinn]

I would assume that Amazon's response to this would be along the lines that it would be impossible for them to verify the degrees of every author of every book they sell, so they just go by what the publisher says.

It's like the time I complained at a book store because one of David Icke's books was in the "History" section of the store. I was told that the store doesn't pick the book's category, the publisher does. The store just puts it on the shelf accordingly.

Aggravating, but ultimately, understandable.

That is horse manure:
B&N (national chain) Had Roarks Formulas for Stress and Strain in the psycology section... And McGraw Hill certainly didn't put it there

 

[Thinktoomuch]

I think this partialy depends on what kind credentials you are claiming. claiming to be a lawyer or a medical doctor, would certainly be illegal, as would claiming to be a certified engeneer or anything else that has more than just getting through school to be part of its qualifications.

But claiming to have a doctorate in biology, well that his very different, and it is hard to say that it has the assumptions of fraud that say pertending to be a medical doctor would.

This thread is going the way of another one I saw, about whether it is an offence to enter somebody's house uninvited. In some places it is, in others it is not, and it boils down to what is prominent in the legislators' mind in a particular place. The examples you made have nothing to do with the legality of representing yourself with a title you do not have, they are predicated on the existence of laws that protect the public from incompetent practice of a profession that involves high risks for the client. Every civilised country has such laws, but only some make an offence of what in other places is considered just innocuous vanity.