jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
Shouldn't that be the Charlie Chaplin mustache of troof?
Russell - Why Won't LC/Dylan Ban Nazis
- Thread starter Foolmewunz
- Start date
Shouldn't that be the Charlie Chaplin mustache of troof?
Beleth
FAQ Creator
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2002
- Messages
- 4,125
Careful with that philosophy; they don't ban Nazis outright here either.
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 7,448
I agree completely. I would never condone banning Rei Murasame merely because she's a Nazi.
However, I would have no problem with demanding that she remove the Nazi flag from her sig or be banned.
I also have a huge problem with the fact that her politics are not challenged by any of the major regulars. The range of reaction from this group runs from indifference to active tolerance to vocal support.
I would revise jhunter's admonishment to Dylan and say:
You're judged by the company you embrace.
1) Please directly prove this person is a Nazi.
2) Please explain the meaning of the signature as it is presented with the words and the background juxtaposed as they are.
3) Please link me to a post where an Invision rule violation has occurred.
If it is determined that what you believe is actually happening then we will resolve it.
2) Please explain the meaning of the signature as it is presented with the words and the background juxtaposed as they are.
3) Please link me to a post where an Invision rule violation has occurred.
If it is determined that what you believe is actually happening then we will resolve it.
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 7,448
1) Not possible. Although as far as I can tell, she has not denied it.
2) I'd like to hear her explanation for this. She quotes extensively from National Vanguard founder Kevin Alfred Strom and I speculate that this is the brand of Nationalism referred to in the image. ("National Vanguard" includes such fine articles as: How Not to Get Fired for Racist Comments)
3) I'm not aware of any rules violations that she has committed.
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
This is true, but I imagine that the Nazi count here is zero or very close to it.
@ Russell:
I don't think anyone here is telling anyone else how to run their forum. However, a review of the content of the post in question would certainly suggest that the poster holds some, let's say, alternative views. Alternative views are not inherently bad; I hold some myself. I would suggest, however, that you review the post and make your own call as to whether the views expressed are the kind you would like LC and LTW to be associated with.
Just a suggestion, and I hope taken in that spirit.
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 7,448
And even if you feel strongly about retaining someone's membership on the grounds of free speech, that does not bar vigorous challenges to that person's politics or even some form of censure. And it certainly does not bar you from placing limits on the content of that person's sig.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Sorry guys - I was out on business last night ('tis the season and all that) and missed quite a few hours.
@IVXX - who expressed concerns to Jeff (who forwarded to me) about being even mentioned in the OP:
IVXX - I apologize if you feel you were being tagged an anti-semite or nazi. I merely used your name as a "noted regular" who was posting in that thread. I did not mean to imply that either you or Dylan (or necessarily even Killtown) are of that political stripe. I wanted to know why valiant seekers of truth would not say something like....
"Ya know, Rei, the fact that we all hate Bush and think he's a murderer is a positive thing, but I find some of your revisionist history, particularly in this area, a bit repulsive."
So, IVXX, don't tell us.... tell Rei that you don't appreciate being associated with her kind of thinking.
I think if you read my post(s), that is clear. And I am still asking the same questions. Russell's visit here was only to ask for evidence, not address the question.
Russel, you still haven't answered me, Chipmunk, Rik, Maccy.... Why do you warn off and then ban "skeptics" but not even question these people? You're an intelligent person, and you assuredly recognize this kind of thing for what it is. I really don't care what your politics are... Evidence? The lassie has a nazi flag as her logo, for Ed's sake! You guys love photos. Have you looked closely at that one. What more do you need, added to her post contents to know what you're dealing with.
We have many VERY conservative posters here at JREF, some of whom I actually enjoy arguing/discussing/debating with.... Even being conservative, though, I dare say any number of them would probably run to the mods to ban an anti-semite, white supremacist, blatant misogynist, etc.... I wouldn't! I want their whack-assed selves right here where I can get to them. So I ain't proposing bannings on LC or here....
I just wanted to know why a forum hellbent on finding "Truth" with an upper case T would ban people whose opinion differed from theirs, and then not ban others. The "guilt by association" line and the subsequent "you are known by the company you keep" was fully intentional. By banning persons of one stripe and not banning persons of the other, you are implicitly agreeing with the second group.
So, IVXX, Dylan, Russell.... What is your stand?
"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." (I paraphrase 'cuz I'm at work and I'm a lazy bugger.)
@IVXX - who expressed concerns to Jeff (who forwarded to me) about being even mentioned in the OP:
IVXX - I apologize if you feel you were being tagged an anti-semite or nazi. I merely used your name as a "noted regular" who was posting in that thread. I did not mean to imply that either you or Dylan (or necessarily even Killtown) are of that political stripe. I wanted to know why valiant seekers of truth would not say something like....
"Ya know, Rei, the fact that we all hate Bush and think he's a murderer is a positive thing, but I find some of your revisionist history, particularly in this area, a bit repulsive."
So, IVXX, don't tell us.... tell Rei that you don't appreciate being associated with her kind of thinking.
I think if you read my post(s), that is clear. And I am still asking the same questions. Russell's visit here was only to ask for evidence, not address the question.
Russel, you still haven't answered me, Chipmunk, Rik, Maccy.... Why do you warn off and then ban "skeptics" but not even question these people? You're an intelligent person, and you assuredly recognize this kind of thing for what it is. I really don't care what your politics are... Evidence? The lassie has a nazi flag as her logo, for Ed's sake! You guys love photos. Have you looked closely at that one. What more do you need, added to her post contents to know what you're dealing with.
We have many VERY conservative posters here at JREF, some of whom I actually enjoy arguing/discussing/debating with.... Even being conservative, though, I dare say any number of them would probably run to the mods to ban an anti-semite, white supremacist, blatant misogynist, etc.... I wouldn't! I want their whack-assed selves right here where I can get to them. So I ain't proposing bannings on LC or here....
I just wanted to know why a forum hellbent on finding "Truth" with an upper case T would ban people whose opinion differed from theirs, and then not ban others. The "guilt by association" line and the subsequent "you are known by the company you keep" was fully intentional. By banning persons of one stripe and not banning persons of the other, you are implicitly agreeing with the second group.
So, IVXX, Dylan, Russell.... What is your stand?
"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." (I paraphrase 'cuz I'm at work and I'm a lazy bugger.)
The situation has been investigated and resolved.
The explanation given to me for the phrase and the flag background was that nationalism is not bad just because of abuses by certain nations in the past. Many countries are nationalistic and I agree with this. I do not agree with Nazism or any ism that kills people including our own.
Even though the authors quoted have other references to different topics the quotes were not supporting Nazism.
I found no Invision violations. The person responded forthrightly and openly to us.
I was going to let it stand but Dylan became aware of the controversy and decided the thread should be gone.
NOW - IN THE FUTURE PLEASE DO NO ASSOCIATE IVXX with a concept he finds repulsive.
You can assault me however you wish but he did not appreciate it.
This was simply stirring the pot and not anything Nazi and therefore nobody fairly administrating the boards should be associated with the concept.
If you guys only took such shabby evidence and allowed us to use it in support of our beliefs.
Russell
The explanation given to me for the phrase and the flag background was that nationalism is not bad just because of abuses by certain nations in the past. Many countries are nationalistic and I agree with this. I do not agree with Nazism or any ism that kills people including our own.
Even though the authors quoted have other references to different topics the quotes were not supporting Nazism.
I found no Invision violations. The person responded forthrightly and openly to us.
I was going to let it stand but Dylan became aware of the controversy and decided the thread should be gone.
NOW - IN THE FUTURE PLEASE DO NO ASSOCIATE IVXX with a concept he finds repulsive.
You can assault me however you wish but he did not appreciate it.
This was simply stirring the pot and not anything Nazi and therefore nobody fairly administrating the boards should be associated with the concept.
If you guys only took such shabby evidence and allowed us to use it in support of our beliefs.
Russell
The bottom line is how some people from here behave there.
Be honest.
They love to come back and say they've been banned and want their badge.
How many posts here do you think I can find where people set out to be banned?
Be civil and polite there and no problem. I created a space for you and fought for your right - some of you chose to abuse it.
I am not the banner.
Russell,
Obviously, I can't speak for anybody else but I'm not sure how true this is. The whole badge thing, as I understand it, was cooked up in response to people being banned under the previous administration of the first board.
I'd be interested if you can find posts of people from here deliberately trying to get banned in recent times. I haven't anybody trying to organise any kind of harassment on the LC boards. There are plenty of people posting after they've just been banned, however, sometimes it is their first post here.
The only person who I can think who seems to have it built into his nature to wind people up is Oliver.
I recieved a message via a mod on this board, from IVXX wrt the false info he posted about me on the LC board. He was very genuine in his apology for this, and admitted he did not check the sourcing of the links that were linked to me in the incident of note. From this I can deduce that while he has had his moments of incivility (as we all have from time to time), IVXX is someone who is learning as he goes, and while on the other side of the battlefield, I think he is learning to become a fair opponent.
TAM
TAM
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Ditto! Just got relayed another message from IVXX thanking me for adjusting or re-wording my original contention. Since I didn't change anything other than clarifying what I meant, the 'thank you' is pretty cool by me. Now if he'll only start standing up when the well poisoners arrive, we'll have an admitted mensch on our hands.
I do have to say that, since Rei is talking about the behaviour of Allied troops in WWII and the displacement of displacement Germans after it, it isn't necessarily obvious that she's defending an anti-semitic Holocaust denying position.
So I can understand IVXX being upset and, to an extent, thinking that there's nothing much wrong with Rei expressing herself in this way.
If anybody's curious about the argument, the thread on LC has disappeared but you can read the opening post in the SLC forum, where Rei re-posted it:
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=655
she was responding to this post:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/11/loose-change-forum-post-of-day.html
It's useful to know about her sources.
Her first set of quotes come from a very dodgy holocaust-denying source via a neo-nazi: Kevin Alfred Strom, based on Dr. Austin J. App's book: Ravishing the women of conquered Europe
He second set seem to be far more legitimate (Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans) and concern the forced migration of ethnic Germans from eastern European countries after the war was over, the Wikipedia article says:
Of course, using these sources to try and minimise the signifcance of the Holocaust is a typical Holocaust denier tactic, as is referring to "Allied Propaganda".
So I can understand IVXX being upset and, to an extent, thinking that there's nothing much wrong with Rei expressing herself in this way.
If anybody's curious about the argument, the thread on LC has disappeared but you can read the opening post in the SLC forum, where Rei re-posted it:
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=655
she was responding to this post:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/11/loose-change-forum-post-of-day.html
It's useful to know about her sources.
Her first set of quotes come from a very dodgy holocaust-denying source via a neo-nazi: Kevin Alfred Strom, based on Dr. Austin J. App's book: Ravishing the women of conquered Europe
He second set seem to be far more legitimate (Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans) and concern the forced migration of ethnic Germans from eastern European countries after the war was over, the Wikipedia article says:
Of course, using these sources to try and minimise the signifcance of the Holocaust is a typical Holocaust denier tactic, as is referring to "Allied Propaganda".
If this is the case tha t Loose Change has been left Holocaust Deniers and Nazi sympathizers than they have debunked themselves.
As a Jew, Zionism means belief in a Jewish state, where Israel is now. Some Ultra Orthodox Jewish sects don't believe in Israel in its current form until the Messiah comes. Zionism does not mean agreeing with Israeli gov't policy. Anyone following the news can view the dispute between El Al flying on Shabbas and Ultra Orthodox Jews boycotting and threatening to start a separate airline. There are major disagreements between Jews in Israel in particular the Ultra Orthodox versus the more secular Jews. Of course the left wing versus right wing debate also exists much like it does in the US.
As a Jew, Zionism means belief in a Jewish state, where Israel is now. Some Ultra Orthodox Jewish sects don't believe in Israel in its current form until the Messiah comes. Zionism does not mean agreeing with Israeli gov't policy. Anyone following the news can view the dispute between El Al flying on Shabbas and Ultra Orthodox Jews boycotting and threatening to start a separate airline. There are major disagreements between Jews in Israel in particular the Ultra Orthodox versus the more secular Jews. Of course the left wing versus right wing debate also exists much like it does in the US.
Russell I'll be honest you're one of the better ones over there, but how stupid do you think we are? The fact that you go and say that we were given privileges and abused all of them is an insult to everybody's intelligence. I have never seen a skeptic deliberately causing trouble over there and have seen very few skeptics resort to calling names anywhere. You told me once that when you came here you were treated horribly. I have seen nobody here treat you with even close to the disrespect that myself and other skeptics recieved over at the LC forum. If I could even get on the forums(cant't get there from this location, banned), I could find the thread where Roxdog repeatedly called me a retard all because I answered his questions and he couldn't answer mine, which I asked in a respectful matter. I had similar problems with Killtown, Pdoherty, and Cheansaw as well. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites. About every skeptic I've seen over there has been civil and polite(and most have been banned for it). Wish I could say the same for the truthers.
You need to read more then.
I have not personally banned anybody myself except for "truthers" and Oliver.
I can only say that we have differing perceptions of the same situations.
This is all a work in progress. I have done my part to open the doors. There are other decision makers there. Doors have also been reopened to certain people who were banned.
I don't say all. I actually like the reasonable, honest people here.
I can't control everything.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
@Maccy - far too generous. You're really bending over to accept Rei's nonsense. One's source material does say something about one's perspective, after all. And I'd have to be a contortionist to accept her explanation of the use of the nazi flag - to emphasize that nationalism can be a good or bad thing? C'mon! Who's kidding who?
@Russell - Dang, boy! You're a slippery cuss, ain't you? It's so good to see a great debater in action. Nice move of goalposts. Let's take this back to the original question, and forget the derail into the mutual infatuation between JREF and LC.
>>>>> Why does L/C ban anyone who doesn't line up and salute the CT at the blink of an eye, but jumps through hoops to make a nice comfy forum for holocaust denier lackwits, neo-nazis, and basic anti-semites?
First, see above. If Gravy or Gumboot or R. Mackey presented you with that kind of inexplicable alibi for something they posted in their profile or sig, you'd be all over them! You find that an acceptable explanation?
So Dylan deleted Rei's thread? Why? The thread the IVXX was 'upset' about was a different one, wasn't it? Why doesn't Dylan make a statement about what he feels about the content of what she wrote? His only post in that thread was basically an "attagirl!" message. And the questioning? How'd that go? The names have been changed to protect the sweet innocent victims in the below imaginary dialogue.
Nalyd: Say, Tsunami, I hadn't noticed, but one of those nice young people over at the JREF Youth Fellowship Picnic pointed out that you seem to have a Nazi flag in the slogan in your profile.
Tsunami: Well, Germany's a country. What's wrong with that?
Nalyd: Yes, sweetie, but ya see, the German flag today is different, it has yellow and, and.... well, a couple of other colors.
Tsunami: Umm, uh.... Yeah, well I know that but the colors didn't go so good with my anime stuff, so I chose the older, historcial flag.
Nalyd: Ya know, dear. A couple of people have pointed out that we wear black, so they call us "blackshirts", but it's really just a color selection, ya know.... kinda a goth thing. We don't really support the Nazis.
Tsunami: What! You led me on all these months! Why you low-life, scum suckin' toe-nail cheese sniffin muthaf.......
Nalyd: WHACK! (backhands her across the mouth)
Tsunami: Uh, I mean..... Hmmm? Nazis, I don't really know anything about nazis, boss... I just chose that flag because I, uh, I.....
Nalyd: (soto voce) nash - a - null - iz - m
Tsunami: Ooh! Ooh! Yeah! Yeah! I know! Yeah! I wanted to point out to people that nationalism can be abused by either side! Sure! That's it! I'm examining the root causes and motivation of nationalists. (Ya think they'd buy that?) Ooops, I mean,... Yeah, that's the ticket.
Nalyd: I see, exposing hypocrisy and bringing out open debate in our search for The Truth.
Tsunami: That's it! Exposing Hypocrisy and supporting open debate!
Nalyd: Oh, shucks, honey. I didn't realize that. It's okay.... bring your flag to school whenever you want, then.
Tsunami: Gee, thanks Mr. Peepers! Can I have my leather trenchcoat back, now?
Nalyd: Well, not until the camera crew leave. Oh, and .... could you leave the hood and the burning crosses at home for a while?
Russell, as to the "come over to our house and be polite like us" idea.... Can we come over and talk like Rei and Killtown? Great! Thanks!
Here are some of sweet li'l Rei's other comments in that same original post. They're addressed to SLC members, but they're on LC (or at least they were until the Politeness Police got there). I'm going to rely on the auto-filter to save me from a warning from the JREF mods. (ETA: Cool! We can say "ass".)
My, how precious! You learn that in Sunday School, honey?
My my, dear. Ha ha is actually two words, but excellent use of hyperbole, I must say.
Oh, tee hee hee! Such a clever little girl. Now you trot along and play with your little toy cars, okay?
Charming stuff, Russell. So over at LC it's okay for the locals to pee in the pool, leave the toilet seat up, and belch in front of the grand dame, but us naughty skeptics have to come in white tie and tails. Stuff and nonsense, fella!
@Russell - Dang, boy! You're a slippery cuss, ain't you? It's so good to see a great debater in action. Nice move of goalposts. Let's take this back to the original question, and forget the derail into the mutual infatuation between JREF and LC.
>>>>> Why does L/C ban anyone who doesn't line up and salute the CT at the blink of an eye, but jumps through hoops to make a nice comfy forum for holocaust denier lackwits, neo-nazis, and basic anti-semites?
First, see above. If Gravy or Gumboot or R. Mackey presented you with that kind of inexplicable alibi for something they posted in their profile or sig, you'd be all over them! You find that an acceptable explanation?
So Dylan deleted Rei's thread? Why? The thread the IVXX was 'upset' about was a different one, wasn't it? Why doesn't Dylan make a statement about what he feels about the content of what she wrote? His only post in that thread was basically an "attagirl!" message. And the questioning? How'd that go? The names have been changed to protect the sweet innocent victims in the below imaginary dialogue.
Nalyd: Say, Tsunami, I hadn't noticed, but one of those nice young people over at the JREF Youth Fellowship Picnic pointed out that you seem to have a Nazi flag in the slogan in your profile.
Tsunami: Well, Germany's a country. What's wrong with that?
Nalyd: Yes, sweetie, but ya see, the German flag today is different, it has yellow and, and.... well, a couple of other colors.
Tsunami: Umm, uh.... Yeah, well I know that but the colors didn't go so good with my anime stuff, so I chose the older, historcial flag.
Nalyd: Ya know, dear. A couple of people have pointed out that we wear black, so they call us "blackshirts", but it's really just a color selection, ya know.... kinda a goth thing. We don't really support the Nazis.
Tsunami: What! You led me on all these months! Why you low-life, scum suckin' toe-nail cheese sniffin muthaf.......
Nalyd: WHACK! (backhands her across the mouth)
Tsunami: Uh, I mean..... Hmmm? Nazis, I don't really know anything about nazis, boss... I just chose that flag because I, uh, I.....
Nalyd: (soto voce) nash - a - null - iz - m
Tsunami: Ooh! Ooh! Yeah! Yeah! I know! Yeah! I wanted to point out to people that nationalism can be abused by either side! Sure! That's it! I'm examining the root causes and motivation of nationalists. (Ya think they'd buy that?) Ooops, I mean,... Yeah, that's the ticket.
Nalyd: I see, exposing hypocrisy and bringing out open debate in our search for The Truth.
Tsunami: That's it! Exposing Hypocrisy and supporting open debate!
Nalyd: Oh, shucks, honey. I didn't realize that. It's okay.... bring your flag to school whenever you want, then.
Tsunami: Gee, thanks Mr. Peepers! Can I have my leather trenchcoat back, now?
Nalyd: Well, not until the camera crew leave. Oh, and .... could you leave the hood and the burning crosses at home for a while?
Russell, as to the "come over to our house and be polite like us" idea.... Can we come over and talk like Rei and Killtown? Great! Thanks!
Here are some of sweet li'l Rei's other comments in that same original post. They're addressed to SLC members, but they're on LC (or at least they were until the Politeness Police got there). I'm going to rely on the auto-filter to save me from a warning from the JREF mods. (ETA: Cool! We can say "ass".)
My, how precious! You learn that in Sunday School, honey?
My my, dear. Ha ha is actually two words, but excellent use of hyperbole, I must say.
Oh, tee hee hee! Such a clever little girl. Now you trot along and play with your little toy cars, okay?
Charming stuff, Russell. So over at LC it's okay for the locals to pee in the pool, leave the toilet seat up, and belch in front of the grand dame, but us naughty skeptics have to come in white tie and tails. Stuff and nonsense, fella!
You misunderstand me. I was not trying to make excuses for Rei I was trying to work out why IVXX wouldn't recognize her as a Holocaust denier straight off. Personally I think its a combination of ignorance and wishful thinking on his part.
As for the flag, I've no idea how they can rationalise that. Perhaps because it only shows part of the insignia? Maybe they really believe that a nationalist party like say Plaid Cymru or the Scottish Nationalist Party is what the Nazi party would have been if hadn't made the mistake of the Holocaust and of invading all those other countries. Pretty dumb if you ask me...
Last edited:
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
ETA: I assume you meant to have "not" in your second sentence.
That's cool! Didn't mean to imply that you were accepting apologist behaviour. More to emphasize that you're being a decent sort, and allowing them to explain as much as they like. (Sorry - it was obvious to me from the fact that you dug into the background of the authors of her citations.)
Last edited: