Eureka! A silver bullet against creationists!

The other is just any theory that involves an intelligent designer. This designer may have designed only the fundamental forces of nature, which is pretty hard to disprove. Though it seems quite unlikely to me.
Yes, but in the end this tells us nothing. It doesn't explain anything. It just says "god did it". More importantly it creates as an ostensible explanation a more complicated entity in an attempt to explain complexity. It is recursive. It gets us nowhere.

RandFan, former ID proponent.
 
People should understand that Of Pandas and People is the definitive textbook on ID. I'm not sure there is another textbook. Possibly Icons of Evolution might be considered one.

~~ Paul


How about "Darwin's Black Box".

Amazon.com sales Rank: "Icons of Evolution" 13129
"Darwin's Black Box" 22306
Of Pandas and People 195954




If "Pandas" is definitive, it seems amazon.com customers aren't real keen on the definition.
 
Meadmaker said:
How about "Darwin's Black Box".
I don't think I'd call it a textbook. Of Pandas and People was written specifically as a textbook.

If the swap from creationism to intelligent design was on a capricious whim of the author, I think the big ID players would have objected. Apparently they didn't. Let's see if they change the name again, after Dover.

~~ Paul
 
I'm not sure I understand you. I don't see a problem. Could you expand?

There are literally millions of Americans who don't know a whole lot about evolution or biology. They've heard a great deal of noise, but haven't really thought about it.

On the other hand, they know that biological systems, especially baby humans, seem extremely complex to them. They seem at least as complicated as watches, for example, and so it seems to them that there ought to be a watchmaker somewhere. They aren't so sure about the Bible being literally true. They've heard, for example, that dinosaurs were millions of years old, and the scientists saying those things seemed to know what they were talking about. So, they just aren't sure about all that science stuff.

Nevertheless, they're pretty darned certain that this great big wonderful world is so amazingly wonderful, complex, and beyond our comprehension that God just had to be involved somehow. Meanwhile, they've heard that " a lot of scientists" agree, and they call their theory "Intelligent Design".

Then, along comes someone saying that isn't really ID. ID is really a plot by biblical fundamentalists to sneak creationism past the judges who outlawed creationism in the classroom.

Well, there are a lot of problems with that line of argument. First, the people know what they believe, and assuming they've heard of creationism, they know that isn't what they believe. Second, they aren't part of some sort of conspiracy, and they know that. Third, they probably aren't so keen on judges (they probably say "liberal judges" or "activist judges") deciding what goes on in the classroom in the first place. Fourth, the assertion that the opponents of ID know something about ID that is unkown to the supporters of ID makes opponents look awfully arrogant.

In short, you've shot yourself in the foot before you even really start talking about the arguments themselves. It would be far better if you simply argued against ID itself, instead of against your own distorted view of it.
 
I don't think I'd call it a textbook. Of Pandas and People was written specifically as a textbook.

I see what you mean.

I still wouldn't call it "definitive" in any meaningful way. A lot of ID proponents would say that it is not definitive of intelligent design, and they aren't lying.

ETA: Some of them aren't lying.
 
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There are literally millions of Americans who don't know a whole lot about evolution or biology. They've heard a great deal of noise, but haven't really thought about it.

On the other hand, they know that biological systems, especially baby humans, seem extremely complex to them. They seem at least as complicated as watches, for example, and so it seems to them that there ought to be a watchmaker somewhere. They aren't so sure about the Bible being literally true. They've heard, for example, that dinosaurs were millions of years old, and the scientists saying those things seemed to know what they were talking about. So, they just aren't sure about all that science stuff.

Nevertheless, they're pretty darned certain that this great big wonderful world is so amazingly wonderful, complex, and beyond our comprehension that God just had to be involved somehow. Meanwhile, they've heard that " a lot of scientists" agree, and they call their theory "Intelligent Design".

Then, along comes someone saying that isn't really ID. ID is really a plot by biblical fundamentalists to sneak creationism past the judges who outlawed creationism in the classroom.

Well, there are a lot of problems with that line of argument. First, the people know what they believe, and assuming they've heard of creationism, they know that isn't what they believe. Second, they aren't part of some sort of conspiracy, and they know that. Third, they probably aren't so keen on judges (they probably say "liberal judges" or "activist judges") deciding what goes on in the classroom in the first place. Fourth, the assertion that the opponents of ID know something about ID that is unkown to the supporters of ID makes opponents look awfully arrogant.

In short, you've shot yourself in the foot before you even really start talking about the arguments themselves. It would be far better if you simply argued against ID itself, instead of against your own distorted view of it.
I was a former ID proponent and I was never part of any cabal. Nor was I a young earth creationist. That said I don't see me making the kind of leaps that you are making to freak out over liberal activists judges (how many times must I say that Jones is a conservative theist appointed by Bush?).

I don't buy your thesis.
 
I was a former ID proponent and I was never part of any cabal. Nor was I a young earth creationist. That said I don't see me making the kind of leaps that you are making to freak out over liberal activists judges (how many times must I say that Jones is a conservative theist appointed by Bush?).

I don't buy your thesis.

Oops. Sorry to have slipped into second person in the last paragraph. I didn't mean to imply that you, Randfan, were doing that. Sorry for the bad grammar.

What I meant was that when someone insists that ID and creationism are the same thing, he has already lost the argument with anyone who knows that they aren't.
 
Oops. Sorry to have slipped into second person in the last paragraph. I didn't mean to imply that you, Randfan, were doing that. Sorry for the bad grammar.

What I meant was that when someone insists that ID and creationism are the same thing, he has already lost the argument with anyone who knows that they aren't.
I didn't take it that you meant me.

I don't see your point. Defendants WERE trying to use ID to get creationism into the classroom. You've invented a controversy that does not exist. Behe might not believe in creationism but he was assisting the defendants to do so.
 
Nevertheless, they're pretty darned certain that this great big wonderful world is so amazingly wonderful, complex, and beyond our comprehension that God just had to be involved somehow. Meanwhile, they've heard that " a lot of scientists" agree, and they call their theory "Intelligent Design".
BTW, Behe accepts evolution only to a point. Behe argues that many biological systems are Irreducibly complex. This is directly counter to evolution.

Behe

Irreducibly complex systems appear very unlikely to be produced by numerous, successive, slight modifications of prior systems, because any precursor that was missing a crucial part could not function. Natural selection can only choose among systems that are already working, so the existence in nature of irreducibly complex biological systems poses a powerful challenge to Darwinian theory. We frequently observe such systems in cell organelles, in which the removal of one element would cause the whole system to cease functioning. The flagella of bacteria are a good example. They are outboard motors that bacterial cells can use for self-propulsion. They have a long, whiplike propeller that is rotated by a molecular motor. The propeller is attached to the motor by a universal joint. The motor is held in place by proteins that act as a stator. Other proteins act as bushing material to allow the driveshaft to penetrate the bacterial membrane.
So tell us exactly how Behe believes in evolution?
 
One more thing, Miller proved Behe wrong.

We frequently observe such systems in cell organelles, in which the removal of one element would cause the whole system to cease functioning.
Demonstrably false. Watch the video.
 
BTW, Behe accepts evolution only to a point. Behe argues that many biological systems are Irreducibly complex. This is directly counter to evolution.

So tell us exactly how Behe believes in evolution?

Behe believes in the theory of common descent. He believes all life originated with single celled organism and evolved by mutation into the life of today.

What he rejects is natural selection as the sole mechanism for evolution. He believes miraculous intervention was necessary to assist the process.
 
I don't see your point. Defendants WERE trying to use ID to get creationism into the classroom. You've invented a controversy that does not exist. Behe might not believe in creationism but he was assisting the defendants to do so.

That's true enough. He didn't object to the introduction of creationist materials, and he said so. Judge Jones, however, went farther than that, saying that creationism and ID were the same thing, and Behe's insistence that they weren't was a lie.

In doing so, he gave the supporters of ID something legitimate to attack.
 
Behe believes in the theory of common descent. He believes all life originated with single celled organism and evolved by mutation into the life of today.

What he rejects is natural selection as the sole mechanism for evolution. He believes miraculous intervention was necessary to assist the process.
A convoluted and un-parsimonious explanation with argument from ignorance thrown in, not to mention, wrong. He believes in evolution with a hitch. I don't blame Judge Jones. Behe wants to have his cake and eat it too.
 
That's true enough. He didn't object to the introduction of creationist materials, and he said so. Judge Jones, however, went farther than that, saying that creationism and ID were the same thing, and Behe's insistence that they weren't was a lie.

In doing so, he gave the supporters of ID something legitimate to attack.
I don't believe so at all. Time will tell.
 
Here's what I mean. It's part of Behe's response to the Jones ruling:


The Court’s reasoning in section E-4 is premised on: a cramped view of science; the conflation of intelligent design with creationism; the incapacity to distinguish the implications of a theory from the theory itself; a failure to differentiate evolution from Darwinism; and strawman arguments against ID. The Court has accepted the most tendentious and shopworn excuses for Darwinism with great charity and impatiently dismissed arguments for design.

All of that is regrettable, but in the end does not impact the realities of biology, which are not amenable to adjudication. On December 21, 2005, as before, the cell is run by amazingly complex, functional machinery that in any other context would immediately be recognized as designed. On December 21, 2005, as before, there are no non-design explanations for the molecular machinery of life, only wishful speculations and Just-So stories.

I'm willing to bet that the average JREF denizen thinks the above is pure, total BS.

I disagree. I think the pure total BS doesn't start until the last sentence in the first paragraph. The first part of the first paragraph is accurate. The conflation of ID and creationism gives both "theories" something to hide behind. Behe can criticize those elements of the judicial opinion, and be correct in doing so, which makes the second paragraph easier to slide past the non-critical reader.
 
Meadmaker said:
Well, there are a lot of problems with that line of argument. First, the people know what they believe, and assuming they've heard of creationism, they know that isn't what they believe.
But, as you say, their understanding of everything is limited, including Creationism. There are enough variants of Creationism that one of the variants might very well match what they believe.

Second, they aren't part of some sort of conspiracy, and they know that.
Of course not. Who said they were?

Fourth, the assertion that the opponents of ID know something about ID that is unkown to the supporters of ID makes opponents look awfully arrogant.
Hang on, which supporters of ID? Not these people you are talking about; they aren't any more likely to think they believe in ID than in Creationism. You must be talking about the ID bigwigs, who damn well know exactly what they are doing and have said so.

As you imply above, the people that matter when it comes to "what ID really is" are the cadre of bigwigs, not the average guy on the street. (This is also true of evolution.)

~~ Paul
 
Meadmaker said:
What he rejects is natural selection as the sole mechanism for evolution. He believes miraculous intervention was necessary to assist the process.
So it's Evolution with Finger Poking. Now all he has to do is come up with evidence of the finger poking. Maybe he could start by getting Dembski on the same page.

In fact, the best way the IDers could disabuse us of the notion that ID is Creationism in a fancy dress would be to do some actual scientific research on ID.

~~ Paul
 
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