Atheism is a faith.

[Mr Clingford]

Agreed. Is that shtick really that important to you? Why?

Would it be sufficient if I said that it makes sense to me and I believe it to be true?

I'm with you there. Here's Ms. Tricky, literally a tree-hugger, peering from behind one of the giants.

I'm a tree-hugger too (don't let the other Christians know or I will have my membership taken away).

Here's a bigger picture of my avatar which has my partner in:

 

[Mr Clingford]

Now, my understanding, from you is that your god doesn't interfere in the physical world. Are you now saying he does? Because, if so, we're going to have to go all the way back to Paulhoff's questions about why kids starve to death and why the baby featured in Beerina's sig (thanks, btw, that is the best I've ever seen) drowned in her mother's puke.

If your holy spirit thing is active in the world, then he has a lot more to answer for than the one who sits and watches, taking names and waiting until we all get up to meet with him.

Which one is yours? I know what orthodorx believe, I want to know what YOU believe.

Hey, that baby probably deserved to die, it was probably going to hell anyway so why should I be worried?

Oh, a more serious answer? What you are asking is probably the biggest question which has no satisfying answers, especially to those without some faith that God might somehow make things alright. So far I believe God exists, beame incarnate, died and rose again, but beyond that my faith wavers between God makes no difference at all to this world to the idea that he might a bit. The death of someone doesn't appear to be the be-all and end-all to God. You see we struggle to understand this so much and we seem to end up polarised; either God is sweet and lovey-dovey, which makes one puke, and doesn't sound realistic, or God is the cosmic sadist. For me, neither of those options sounds right so I believe that the truth is something beyond that paradox, that dichotomy.

Mate, this heaven of yours is sounding more like hell to me everyday. That, or an American sitcom, which would be hell, so overall, it sounds like hell...

1 Full of catholics - not my favourite people.
2 Full of fundies - worse.
3 TWO frigging ex-wives that I'm going to have (and want ) to be nice to.
4 TWO frigging ex-mothers-in-law, ditto the above^4.
5 I will like, admire and respect people I absolutely despise for their lack of spine.
6 I will have to spend all of eternity being nice.

Hell sounds a picnic by comparison.

Wow, you have 3 mothers-in-law. Mate, what did you do in a past life? or lives, to deserve that. But, what makes you think that these mothers-in-law aren't going to hell; perhaps you will have to spend eternity with them in hell. Ha ha ha!

 

[Tricky]

Would it be sufficient if I said that it makes sense to me and I believe it to be true?

Certainly I understand the emotional satisfaction it gives one to have an anchor like this, but it still doesn't explain why it makes sense to you. (I know, I'm like a tenacious toddler with all the "whys".)

But really, since I became a skeptic, I have tried to find intelligent, non-woo Christians to penetrate to the heart of why they accept this bit of supernatural belief when they don't in practically any other aspect of their lives. Isn't enough that the philosophy is good without requiring the magic to be true as well?

Here's a bigger picture of my avatar which has my partner in:
[URL="http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h132/mrclingford/th_102_0233.jpg"][URL="http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h132/mrclingford/th_102_0233.jpg"]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h132/mrclingford/th_102_0233.jpg[/URL][/URL]

Very attractive. The tree's not bad either.

I am a geologist, but lately have become more of a birder. However, I delight in almost any natural beauty.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Certainly I understand the emotional satisfaction it gives one to have an anchor like this, but it still doesn't explain why it makes sense to you. (I know, I'm like a tenacious toddler with all the "whys".)

But really, since I became a skeptic, I have tried to find intelligent, non-woo Christians to penetrate to the heart of why they accept this bit of supernatural belief when they don't in practically any other aspect of their lives. Isn't enough that the philosophy is good without requiring the magic to be true as well?

No no, ask away. Right. I think I might reach a point where I would have to drop the magic if it was conclusively shown that there was no Jesus and that God didn't exist. You see, I actually respect the materialist view of accepting only that which has been/ will be/ might be shown to exist - it strikes me as eminently sensible. Also consciousness is an interesting kettle of fish about which I am beginning to learn a little more; although materialists insist that it is just brain, that is assertion not fact and perhaps we will find out that hard materialists are mistaken. But I come from a family with the default setting that God exists, science addresses how, religion addresses why, non-literalist Bible - it's very reasonable. My background is not fundamentalist black and white. Also I have studied philosophy (sorry CapelDodger) and have come to believe that no-one can know for sure the true state of things - we might be wrong. Also it can strike me that actually it's not sensible at all to dismiss the idea that some things might not be amenable to the scientific approach, they might be outside its scope.

So it can be emotionally satisfying. Also faith can actually turn people's lives around and save them, really save them (whether God exists or not).

Very attractive. The tree's not bad either.

I am a geologist, but lately have become more of a birder. However, I delight in almost any natural beauty.

BTW my too dry weak British irony didn't communicate that I did notice the little person!

Hey, me too! I sometimes think that in millennia gone by I would have worshipped nature, the sun. I love being amongst mountains, rocks and trees, possibly at my happiest walking along. In the last year I have been learning to identify a few more trees (and the odd bird too (other than my own!)). I have also got into water a bit with freediving (and last week managed a breath-hold of four minutes).

 

[The Atheist]

...snip...For me, neither of those options sounds right so I believe that the truth is something beyond that paradox, that dichotomy.

I'll accept that, but you'd have to admit that your god has gotten much harder to find than when he was around in the OT - forever appearing behind burning bushes, etc. Nowadays, he's gone all mysterious and shy. So much harder to shoot him down when he's invisible and indecipherable.

Wow, you have 3 mothers-in-law. Mate, what did you do in a past life? or lives, to deserve that. But, what makes you think that these mothers-in-law aren't going to hell; perhaps you will have to spend eternity with them in hell. Ha ha ha!

Oh boy, if I thought there was any chance of that, I'd be on my knees right now!

 

[soarwing]

Well, soarwing, your vehemence is impressive and humorous. Care to back up your assertions with any evidence?

- - -

Evidence?
Try reading the Bible sometime. It's overflowing with violence, sexism, slavery, racism, mindless incestuous sex and countless absurdities.

Biblegod himself says that he brings evil into the world. There is an all out assault on the faculty of reason in the Bible. For example; Adam and Eve were ignorant - they didn't even know they were naked - how could they possibly have known what "death" or "die" meant? From the very beginning, Biblegod showed ANGER toward disobedience and FEAR/ANGER when humans became like him (Or "us"). Jesus (god) wanted us to become like little children (i.e. gullible). Don't forget the Tower of Babel.

To question and doubt is to sin. The god of the Bible is petty, jealous and vindictive. The existence of hell and ETERNAL punishment should obliterate any illusions of mercy or goodness from this "god". What a sad universe it would be if such a god really did exist. One that tortures and maims, one that commands the slaughter of unborn children, women and animals. One that apparently has a strange fascination with foreskins and feces (Read Ezekiel). One that apparently sent two she-bears to maul and kill some children who made fun of Elisha's bald head. There's a real role model for ya!

Jesus may have seemed to be the kindlier and gentler "version" of the O.T. war god, but his moral teachings weren't original in the least. On top of that, Jesus predicted his own return within the lifetimes of some that were living back then. He was a false prophet and couldn't perform "miracles" if the faith of a town or area wasn't strong enough. - - - some god, huh?

Isn't it strange how an allegedly all-powerful and good god would require the blood sacrifice of an allegedly "sinless" human being in order to atone for the so-called sins of humanity. How is that justice? How was that somehow a required thing that needed to happen? Couldn't god have simply forgiven humanity for our "sins"? Seems that even the most backward of societies has realized that killing innocent people to atone for anything is a waste of time and is unnecessary.

What kind of fatherly love would it be if a child denied his father's existence and then the father TORTURED his child because of it? If one of my sons denied my very existence and HATED me with every fiber of his being - no matter what the reason - I could never torture him... not even for a second, let alone for an eternity. What kind of "loving father" sets up a place like hell (or allows it) in which his disobedient or doubtful children are cast into the fire that cannot be quenched and there suffer eternal torment?

Believe or be damned.

Hell and the biblical salvation scheme are the worst ideas that man has ever invented. These notions (and others like them) have caused the human race untold misery and fear. The god of the Bible sets up the scenario in which, his beloved creation - human beings - cannot live sin-free lives. And then he provides the "solution" to the problem of humanity's "evil ways"...... A problem that he created in the first place. I don't know about anyone else here, but I can honestly say that I did not ask to be created... nor is it possible for me to live "sin-free" by Biblical standards. Can any living human be without sin, biblically speaking? NOPE!!!!
How is that free-will? It's like being born with a deformed leg and then needing god's "forgiveness" because you can't walk very well.

With a little courage and some honest thought, the Bible Beer Goggles come off and the Bible becomes the ridiculous and barbaric collection that it truly is. It's a treasure trove of superstition, infanticide and misery, with some already-thought-of ramblings about love and giving, sprinkled in for texture.

I can provide detailed references to hundreds, if not thousands of absurdities and atrocities as written in the Bible.... anyone can.

Just read the book.

 

[Tricky]

In an attempt to be fair I must point out that if we skeptics argue that the Bible is not evidence for God, we can't really argue that it is evidence for the evil nature of God. It is interpretation.

Now I agree with soarwing that even the most casual interpretation of much of the stuff in the OT would indicate to me that if it were true, God would be one evil MF. Fortunately (for humanity) there is no evidence that it is true.

 

[soarwing]

Oh and by the way, There's NO REASON to think that the Biblical version of events (Creation) actually went down. None - - - other than the Bible says so.

The reason people believe it happened the way the Bible describes it, is because they were told to believe that's how it happened. Funny how geography and family trees tend to "find the truth". Thankfully, Christians don't actually practice most of the things that the Bible teaches!

The real good news is that there are fewer "reasons" to believe in the Biblical god than there are reasons to accept any god at all.

 

[Ginarley]

Oh and by the way, There's NO REASON to think that the Biblical version of events (Creation) actually went down. None - - - other than the Bible says so.

The reason people believe it happened the way the Bible describes it, is because they were told to believe that's how it happened. Funny how geography and family trees tend to "find the truth". Thankfully, Christians don't actually practice most of the things that the Bible teaches!

The real good news is that there are fewer "reasons" to believe in the Biblical god than there are reasons to accept any god at all.

Don't underestimate the biggest reason anyone has to believe in the biblical god - a person they deem as an authority (e.g. a priest or pastor or whatever) told them it was true. And who told them to think of them as an authority? An even more important authority - their parents. Humans are predisposed to respect and believe information from authoritative figures particularly when young. Most people never feel the need to think critically about what they believe and so the cycle continues.

So there is a very real reason to believe in a biblical god, it is just that it is a false reason with no grounding in what you actually see around you.

 

[soarwing]

In an attempt to be fair I must point out that if we skeptics argue that the Bible is not evidence for God, we can't really argue that it is evidence for the evil nature of God. It is interpretation.

Now I agree with soarwing that even the most casual interpretation of much of the stuff in the OT would indicate to me that if it were true, God would be one evil MF. Fortunately (for humanity) there is no evidence that it is true.

- - -

What I'm arguing is that to the Christian Theist, there can be no other reasonable conclusion than that their god is preposterous and evil AS DESCRIBED in the Bible.

In other words, If the Bible is true, it is evidence for the evil nature of the god they worship. I can't make the certain claim that this god does not exist - just point out that even if it did, it shouldn't be worshipped - it should be destroyed if at all possible.

The theist knows that the atheist doesn't accept the Bible as evidence for god. No big surprise there. I think the key is pointing out why the evidence that they (Biblical theists) offer for god - is silly.

The all powerful god of the universe has to kill his "only son" so that he can forgive humanity, for the sins that we have no choice but to commit? Sounds a little weird, huh?

It's even weirder when you consider that it's really just simple unbelief that will get you thrown into hell.

Sorry fact is that I used to think it was true. I had intense religious experiences and faith and felt HIS guiding hand... etc.... and so do other folks that worship and worshipped thousands of other gods.

It's a delusion. Nothing more.

The real world is a far better place to live.

 

[soarwing]

Don't underestimate the biggest reason anyone has to believe in the biblical god - a person they deem as an authority (e.g. a priest or pastor or whatever) told them it was true. And who told them to think of them as an authority? An even more important authority - their parents. Humans are predisposed to respect and believe information from authoritative figures particularly when young. Most people never feel the need to think critically about what they believe and so the cycle continues.

So there is a very real reason to believe in a biblical god, it is just that it is a false reason with no grounding in what you actually see around you.

- - -

You're right.

I should have said "rational reasons", shouldn't I have?

 

[Ginarley]

- - -

You're right.

I should have said "rational reasons", shouldn't I have?

Perhaps - although things always get messy when rational and religion crash in the same discussion

 

[soarwing]

Perhaps - although things always get messy when rational and religion crash in the same discussion

- - -

I can vouch for that.

My family (Christian) has practically disowned me now that I've told them that I don't believe in god. Talk about messy!

Here I thought they loved me because of me. Guess their god is more important to them than having a meaningful relationship with a family member. - - - So be it.

 

[Ginarley]

- - -

I can vouch for that.

My family (Christian) has practically disowned me now that I've told them that I don't believe in god. Talk about messy!

Here I thought they loved me because of me. Guess their god is more important to them than having a meaningful relationship with a family member. - - - So be it.

That's sad, sorry to hear that... it's a bit ridiculous really. And they say christianity is a good source of morality??

 

[soarwing]

That's sad, sorry to hear that... it's a bit ridiculous really. And they say christianity is a good source of morality??

- - -

I appreciate that.

Like you say, it is sad.

At first, they wanted to know what "bad experience" I had that made me mad at god. Then they wanted to know why I had rejected god's love , etc. "You can't PROVE god doesn't exist!", "You're going to HELL", etc.

I've heard similar things over and over..... from others in my circle of friends and family that are Christians. It's nauseating.... mostly because I used to think like that, not because the threats and the jeers are directed at me.

When I explained the real reasons why I rejected the Bible and Christianity and asked them questions about their faith... well, that's when the real trouble started. I say "trouble", but what it amounted to was a refusal to speak to me about the subject. My brother, my dad and my mother will not speak to me about religion or much else for that matter.

I'm a "lost soul" now. I'm an object of pity to them - as if I've suddenly become a wino laying on a park bench.

My dad actually said.... and I quote: "Well, I'll still be happy in heaven even though I know you'll be in hell."

- - No kidding - He said that.

After he said that, I knew I that my questioning and my doubting was leading me down the right path and away from the silly fear mongering and threats of Christianity.

My mom kept saying things like, "But you're His child, how can you turn away from Him?".

Appealing to emotion and force. It's powerful at first because I didn't want to be an atheist. I wanted to keep believing the comforting stories and life after death stuff. I wanted to believe that there was a god that loved me and that loving him back would come naturally. I'd pray and pray and most of the time, I'd feel better after. Today, I can "pray" to a toaster... talk things out with the toaster.... get "centered" again and feel just as good or better about myself, my life and even other kitchen appliances.

My brother droned on and on about "Having a Purpose!". He'd say that life is not an accident and that we're here for a reason. No details after that or anything - - just that (very forcefully) "We have a purpose!".

I told him that my purpose was to be happy and to try to make others around me happy as well..... the best that I can. Not because god told me to be good or because I'm worried about punishments after I die. I aksed him if that was much different from how he wanted to live and he said that it wasn't.

He asked me if I could see "design" in the universe. I said that I could see design in the sense that there's order in the universe. He said, "Well, there you go, That proves god!" Of course I asked him how he knew that it was his god that was responsible and not Zeus, Allah, Odin, Jupiter or some very violent and twisted deity..... "FAITH!" was the ready reply.

"I've lost my faith", I told him. "Not because I wanted to, but because that's what had to happen when I actually thought about it." Before I lost my faith, I read the Bible cover to cover - searching for answers to my questions.... (skimmed through Numbers, of course ) and after I was done, I couldn't believe that this was "The Good Book". The Word of God - I had just assumed that the Bible was good and was special in some way. Nothing could have been further from the truth for me personally. I felt like a good friend just put a knife in my stomach. It was kind of like Neo waking up in the Matrix - at first anyway. I had been simply ignorant of the Bible and had only gotten a taste of what my pastors had spoon fed me. There's plenty they don't want you to read and even less they want you to think about.

No more of that. I'm free to wonder, to not know and to look at the real world without worrying if big-brother will approve. Even if there is some sort of god that created everything, the notion that it would have a "chosen" people, require blood sacrifice, be jealous of other gods and command (or personally carry out) the massacre of millions of people and animals is absurd.

And to reject this god is to reject the Biblical god. I for one have no problem rejecting this god - even if it is real. I would sooner worship my toaster. Even the bread gets out of the heat sooner or later.

 

[Mr Clingford]

...My family (Christian) has practically disowned me now that I've told them that I don't believe in god. Talk about messy!

Here I thought they loved me because of me. Guess their god is more important to them than having a meaningful relationship with a family member. - - - So be it.

Thanks for the background information; it puts your vehemence in a very understandable context. You have been hurt badly by your family and for your father to say, "Well, I'll still be happy in heaven even though I know you'll be in hell" is awful. If I were in your shoes I would probably feel in a similar way.

But you have made a number of assumptions about me and my beliefs as you have thought that the faith you have rejected is one that I follow.

The all powerful god of the universe has to kill his "only son" so that he can forgive humanity, for the sins that we have no choice but to commit? Sounds a little weird, huh?

I agree with you; doesn't sound right. That's why I too have rejected this Penal Substitionary Atonement theory.

It's even weirder when you consider that it's really just simple unbelief that will get you thrown into hell.

That doesn't work for me too - doesn't sound like a loving and just God. I don't believe it too.

Oh and by the way, There's NO REASON to think that the Biblical version of events (Creation) actually went down. None - - - other than the Bible says so.

I don't think the Bible is claiming to be a science textbook either. Myths are not be intended to be historically true but to convey other meanings. I think it is a mistake to read the Creation stories as history.

Jesus preached "psychological self-castration". He was a dolt, a ridiculous nutjob, who said and apparently thought things that land people in asylums today. (IF actually existed, of course.) That's a Big IF, I know.

I also thought I would quote something that I disagree with . This is assertion, and just saying, "Read the Bible" won't do, because I have and do (a little) and think you are wrong. What was this "psychological self-castration", I don't remember him referencing Freud. Of course if someone claimed to be God now we would stick them in an asylum, whether they were Jesus come back or not!
Also, it is not a big 'IF' that Jesus existed, as has been argued a lot on this board. It is still much more likely that a Yeshua bloke was alive back then, wandered around, had followers and was executed.

 

[Tricky]

What I'm arguing is that to the Christian Theist, there can be no other reasonable conclusion than that their god is preposterous and evil AS DESCRIBED in the Bible.

I'm not sure of your definition of "Christian Theist", but if that is a correct definition, then I'd have to say that I have met many Christians who are not Christian Theists. I think you met one in the previous post.

Just as many people form their opinions of atheists based on Michael Nedow and Madelene Murray O'Hare, many of us seem to only see the shouting, in-your-face type of Christians. I assure you, there are many other kinds.

In other words, If the Bible is true, it is evidence for the evil nature of the god they worship. I can't make the certain claim that this god does not exist - just point out that even if it did, it shouldn't be worshiped - it should be destroyed if at all possible.

I'm not sure if you are serious. Obviously there is no (recent) evidence for that evil god described in the OT, so there is not much point in hunting it down to destroy it. (How would you do that anyway?)

What must be "destroyed" is the harmful ways that people express their belief, like what your family has done to you. I too come from a family of believers and we too have had many arguments on the topic, but not a single one has expressed joy or even apathy over the prospect of my going to hell. In fact, some don't even believe in hell, or they have some concept of it which doesn't involve punishment.

The theist knows that the atheist doesn't accept the Bible as evidence for god. No big surprise there. I think the key is pointing out why the evidence that they (Biblical theists) offer for god - is silly.

The all powerful god of the universe has to kill his "only son" so that he can forgive humanity, for the sins that we have no choice but to commit? Sounds a little weird, huh?

Yes, that is extremely illogical. Those who support that view of Christianity are frustrating to talk to because they don't see the circularity of their arguments. I usually take a simpler tack with them, something like, "I don't believe a truly loving God would punish people for eternity just for using the brain and the free-will He gave them."

But there are many thoughtful Christians who think beyond the simplistic, literal interpretation of the Bible. Don't use such a broad brush.

Sorry fact is that I used to think it was true. I had intense religious experiences and faith and felt HIS guiding hand... etc.... and so do other folks that worship and worshiped thousands of other gods.

So did I. Many of us here are ex-theists. It is easy to be angry at people who have misled you and told you to believe fairy tales, but that anger is misplaced. They are telling you what they were told and what they came to believe, for whatever reasons. They weren't lying, because to lie, you must know you are wrong. They were simply mistaken. It happens to the best of us.

I hope you will forgive your family for being misled by those before them and for not critically thinking about their beliefs. It is terrible to be estranged from loved ones. Since fear of hell doesn't motivate you, then when someone tells you that you are going to hell, that shouldn't bother you either. Just smile and say, "Maybe, but I doubt it." In the words of Brother Dave Gardner, "Love your enemies. It drives 'em nuts."

It's a delusion. Nothing more.

The real world is a far better place to live.

I agree strongly. However, the people who believe this delusion didn't invent it. It is a cultural thing that goes back a long long way. With luck and perseverance, we will drive back the fog of superstition that darkens the real world. We will do this with evidence and logic. Anger has a place too, but I usually consider it a poor tool for interpersonal discussions. You just make the superstitious people more defensive and recalcitrant in their beliefs.

 

[soarwing]

I'm not trying to characterize or criticize anyone's particular faith here. I am very sorry that I made it sound that way, but after reading what I wrote.... it sounded that way. My sincere apologies!

I'm not angry with my family now. I was at first, but I shouldn't have been.

What angered me most was that I believed (and they apparently believe) without questioning, without wanting to "get to the bottom of it", so to speak. Not so much the beliefs themselves. Granted, I think they (the beliefs) are absurd - looking back, but that wasn't the real source of my anger.

I'm happier now than I ever have been and I think that my family can see this. From what I gather, I think it confuses them in the sense that now that I'm a dreaded unbeliever, I'm somehow supposed to be miserable and withdrawn or something like that. I'll admit that when my faith was crumbling, I felt like I was on a roller coaster that I reallly didn't want to be on. I wanted someone, ANYONE, to stop the ride. I stayed awake nights thinking about it and contemplating death and mortality. THE END of my existence! How bizarre and terrifying a concept for someone like I was then! I remember how I felt and how hard it was to accept what the evidence - to me - was revealing.

It may sound like a cliche, but I value my life and others' lives now more than ever. I find beauty in seemingly insignificant things - because I don't think in personal terms of forever or everlasting. Life is all the more beautiful because it is temporary and in my mind, this makes it that much more precious.

 

[Tricky]

I'm not trying to characterize or criticize anyone's particular faith here. I am very sorry that I made it sound that way, but after reading what I wrote.... it sounded that way. My sincere apologies!

Nobly conceded.

I'm not angry with my family now. I was at first, but I shouldn't have been.

Its hard to have these types of arguments without getting a little hot. Indeed I had a thread about an argument with my family. But I got the impression that you were essentially being "shunned" by your family, and that would be sad (and angering).

I'm happier now than I ever have been and I think that my family can see this. From what I gather, I think it confuses them in the sense that now that I'm a dreaded unbeliever, I'm somehow supposed to be miserable and withdrawn or something like that. I'll admit that when my faith was crumbling, I felt like I was on a roller coaster that I reallly didn't want to be on. I wanted someone, ANYONE, to stop the ride. I stayed awake nights thinking about it and contemplating death and mortality. THE END of my existence! How bizarre and terrifying a concept for someone like I was then! I remember how I felt and how hard it was to accept what the evidence - to me - was revealing.

Yes, it sounds very familiar, especially the "being happier now" part. It is amazing how often believers just assume we are sad or bitter. Huntster likes to claim (one can only assume because he has ESP) that we are "mad at God".

It may sound like a cliche, but I value my life and others' lives now more than ever. I find beauty in seemingly insignificant things - because I don't think in personal terms of forever or everlasting. Life is all the more beautiful because it is temporary and in my mind, this makes it that much more precious.

I always fall back on The Rubaiyat for better words than mine...

Some for the glories of this world and some
Sigh for the prophet's paradise to come.
Oh take the cash and let the credit go,
Nor heed the rumble of a distant drum.

Oh threats of hell and hopes of paradise,
One thing at least is certain: This life flies.
One thing is certain and the rest is lies.
The flower that once has blown, forever dies.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Yes, it sounds very familiar, especially the "being happier now" part. It is amazing how often believers just assume we are sad or bitter. Huntster likes to claim (one can only assume because he has ESP) that we are "mad at God".

The other day I was thinking just how little I really dwell on my atheism now. For devout theists their religion is usually central to their lives. But if it weren't for some religious people trying to legislate their faith in order to force their values on me I would probably think about gods almost as rarely as I think about the tooth fairy.